Europa Universalis IV

[Vaarna_Aarne]

And it already was in EU3, so it doesn't really need any additional buffs. Only Divine Wind made them weaker due to large alliances against them forming more easily and HRE being more capable of defending itself.

The alternative to the current situation is the addition of MMU style bullshit.

 

[Spectacle]

I principally think of the Battle of Assaye as the example of European dominance during this period, where 6,500 British troops with 17 cannon beat a 50,000 strong Maratha Confederacy force (with 10,800 sepoy-quality troops) lead by an experience European general on the defense.

That battle took place in 1803, arguably the next period not this period.

And the Spanish conquests in America were made possible through diplomacy, subterfuge and exploiting the natives awe of the European technology, rather than pure military advantage. If the Incas had lasted a few decades and gained familiarity with European ways, they would have been a much harder nut to crack, even without upgrading their weaponry.

 

[Luzur]

You can burn the installation files to a disk, Luzur, though of course it's not the same.

well, that would kinda be the same as for a finn to look east towards Karelia and see it as Finnish on the map, while in reality it is Russian.

 

[Sranchammer]

I principally think of the Battle of Assaye as the example of European dominance during this period, where 6,500 British troops with 17 cannon beat a 50,000 strong Maratha Confederacy force (with 10,800 sepoy-quality troops) lead by an experience European general on the defense.

That battle took place in 1803, arguably the next period not this period.

And the Spanish conquests in America were made possible through diplomacy, subterfuge and exploiting the natives awe of the European technology, rather than pure military advantage. If the Incas had lasted a few decades and gained familiarity with European ways, they would have been a much harder nut to crack, even without upgrading their weaponry.

Don't forget smallpox!

 

[attackfighter]

I principally think of the Battle of Assaye as the example of European dominance during this period, where 6,500 British troops with 17 cannon beat a 50,000 strong Maratha Confederacy force (with 10,800 sepoy-quality troops) lead by an experience European general on the defense.

That battle took place in 1803, arguably the next period not this period.

And the Spanish conquests in America were made possible through diplomacy, subterfuge and exploiting the natives awe of the European technology, rather than pure military advantage. If the Incas had lasted a few decades and gained familiarity with European ways, they would have been a much harder nut to crack, even without upgrading their weaponry.

Don't forget smallpox!

And Moctezuma welcoming Cortez into Tenochitlan peacefully, allowing himself to be captured and his nobility murdered.

 

[oscar]

And the Spanish conquests in America were made possible through diplomacy, subterfuge and exploiting the natives awe of the European technology, rather than pure military advantage. If the Incas had lasted a few decades and gained familiarity with European ways, they would have been a much harder nut to crack, even without upgrading their weaponry.

This is represented by the 'whiteman' tech modifier that natives get upon contact with Europeans.

I've never argued for MMU style arbitrary bullshit, just saying how I didn't like how the focus of things across expansion packs shifted from France trying to expand its borders and everyone else having to form an alliance to contain them.

 

[Raghar]

- SYW - continental : France + Austria + Russia + Sweden + HRE vs Prussia + Hannover + some UK + a couple minors. France shamefully draws.

That's because Prussia is kickass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxWZlwTZpXw&hd=1

 

[Malakal]

Natives would be greatly improved if you couldnt just click and exterminate them all. Their population should be average and growing back after being "depleted". Plus adding more events regarding native relations should work. I think some kind of government-in-exile mechanic like in HoI3 could work for native nations without giving them actual border and territory.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

And the Spanish conquests in America were made possible through diplomacy, subterfuge and exploiting the natives awe of the European technology, rather than pure military advantage. If the Incas had lasted a few decades and gained familiarity with European ways, they would have been a much harder nut to crack, even without upgrading their weaponry.

This is represented by the 'whiteman' tech modifier that natives get upon contact with Europeans.

The 'whiteman' tech bonus natives gets means jackshit though due to how ridiculously high tech costs are for the natives and how the lack of forts (which you can't get because you need several hundred years to get to Land 3) and Tribal Succession makes it impossible to Westernize succesfully even if you manage to reach the HUGE requirements for it.

 

[Spectacle]

The "Whiteman" modifier also doesn't change that even a tech level 0 native army should be able to win a straight up fight against a greatly outnumbered tech level 20 European army.

 

[Malakal]

The "Whiteman" modifier also doesn't change that even a tech level 0 native army should be able to win a straight up fight against a greatly outnumbered tech level 20 European army.

The problem is Europeans wont ever be greatly outnumbered. 12 000 is a medium sized expedition that usually goes to conquer them. I often use 20+k troops and thats more than most native nations can field themselves. They have low base tax and low manpower so they cant field as much as Europeans can ferry to them.

Its more of a issue with EU military and logistic system (or lack of such).

 

[attackfighter]

Also when the AI notices it's neighbour shipping off huge chunks of it's army to other continents, it should be inclined to take advantage of the situation somehow.

 

[Malakal]

Also when the AI notices it's neighbour shipping off huge chunks of it's army to other continents, it should be inclined to take advantage of the situation somehow.

Why? Moving troops around the world takes about as much time as it does to siege one province without assaulting. Its a more deep issue rooted in military system.

As I see it logistics in EU3 are replaced by terra incognita limiting expansion. It needs major changes to work efficiently.

 

[attackfighter]

Well I guess another unrealistic thing is that it takes so long to wage war in this game.

But irl a major concern for the British (and likely all other colonial powers) was that sending away too many soldiers from their homelands would have left them open to catastrophic invasion. During the American Revolutionary War and War of 1812 they weren't willing to commit as many men as was logistically possible for this reason. So I'd guess that local politics would have limited the number of soldiers available for oversees adventure as much or more so than logistical capabilities would have.

 

[Luzur]

- SYW - continental : France + Austria + Russia + Sweden + HRE vs Prussia + Hannover + some UK + a couple minors. France shamefully draws.

That's because Prussia is kickass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxWZlwTZpXw&hd=1

oh Finland, if only you could have been our woman.

 

[Sranchammer]

I've got a bad feeling about this.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

I've got a bad feeling about this.

How so?

 

[Sranchammer]

I've got a bad feeling about this.

How so?

The usual suspect. Larger fanbase = diluted product.

The fact that the most popular thread in their forum is a 'Native Americans should have a chance!' makes me feel uncomfortable.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I've got a bad feeling about this.

How so?

The usual suspect. Larger fanbase = diluted product.

The fact that the most popular thread in their forum is a 'Native Americans should have a chance!' makes me feel uncomfortable.

It is a fairly legit concern you know.

 

[oscar]

I can't see Injun resistance being much more than 'Indian Raid' events and negative provincial modifiers to represent raids and guerilla resistance to colonists. Perhaps colonising nations could choose whether to approach the natives from a trade and alliances vs assimilation and colonisation vs annihilation and genocide (forceful relocation?) perspective. My knowledge of history on this front isn't the strongest but as I understand this would be fairly plausible as you got things like the French and Dutch focusing more on trade and making a quick buck while the English and Spanish went for more substantial and long-term colonisation.

 

[Malakal]

EU3 handles natives that way - some events and genocide. Only few token native nations exist, and while they should be removed IMO they arent very problematic. The bigger issue is colonization.

I've got a bad feeling about this.

How so?

The usual suspect. Larger fanbase = diluted product.

The fact that the most popular thread in their forum is a 'Native Americans should have a chance!' makes me feel uncomfortable.

In this thread there is more opposition to the idea than support. Paradox forums are not as stupid as you give them credit for.

 

[Sranchammer]

EU3 handles natives that way - some events and genocide. Only few token native nations exist, and while they should be removed IMO they arent very problematic. The bigger issue is colonization.

I've got a bad feeling about this.

How so?

The usual suspect. Larger fanbase = diluted product.

The fact that the most popular thread in their forum is a 'Native Americans should have a chance!' makes me feel uncomfortable.

In this thread there is more opposition to the idea than support. Paradox forums are not as stupid as you give them credit for.

I did not mean to imply they are stupid.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I can't see Injun resistance being much more than 'Indian Raid' events and negative provincial modifiers to represent raids and guerilla resistance to colonists. Perhaps colonising nations could choose whether to approach the natives from a trade and alliances vs assimilation and colonisation vs annihilation and genocide (forceful relocation?) perspective. My knowledge of history on this front isn't the strongest but as I understand this would be fairly plausible as you got things like the French and Dutch focusing more on trade and making a quick buck while the English and Spanish went for more substantial and long-term colonisation.

Tamoios Confederation, Tlaxcalla and others disagree with you. Injuns did manage to put some mean resistance from time to time.

EU3 handles natives that way - some events and genocide. Only few token native nations exist, and while they should be removed IMO they arent very problematic. The bigger issue is colonization.



In this thread there is more opposition to the idea than support. Paradox forums are not as stupid as you give them credit for.

The way colonization works is totally bogus too. Once you get to 1000 people, you get a city and magical cultural-religious conversion to your culture/main religion. I wonder why the Jesuits ever wasted so much of their time and money and manpower sending clergymen to America - They should've just waited until cities grew big enough, then the natives would've seen the glory of (insert nation/catholicism here) and collectivelly converted in a instant!

Teh problems with native american civilizations are two-fold:

1. European powers can bring as many troops as they want to America without any problem.

2. New World Natives can be easily annexed with conquest and enough troops.

2 could be easily fixed by making nomads (everyone except Maya, Mesomaericans and Andeans) provinces unconquerable, like Hordes but more... gradual.

Yea, the big issue is that native states are more of an afterthought than anything. Hell, it's pretty much hitting a goldmine if you attack them before anyone else, because just a speck of your forces could decimate them all single-handedly.

It would be better to just overhaul the whole system and make it reasonable as part of the colonization. No need to model the Sioux Wars here, but currently the whole thing is a one-sided clusterfuck.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

A big issue with Africa and American natives is that they have 0 Fort in their provinces, making them 100% curbstomps 100% of the time.

I'd say they need to rework the whole Westernization system. It's currently broken and fail. Then again, it wouldn't be an issue if Europeans couldn't ship hundreds of thousands of troops across the globe and reinforce them without second though. IMO, they should make Force Limits two-fold: Limit on how many troops you can have Overseas, and the total force limit. Obviously they'd need to improve the combat model as a whole so numbers and tech aren't all-important.

 

[Malakal]

You know what? I wouldnt cry if colonization was made to be an entire different subsystem similar to HRE where you have bickering between colonizers and diplomacy with natives while on map you get randomly but directed by you provinces joining (and leaving!) your empire. After all Spain didnt just decide to colonize there and there it was a process, private initiative was important.