Carmack accused of stealing Zenimax's tech for Oculus VR

[Spectacle]

If you want to embarrass Metro, you can just randomly quote mine his "Build me a PC" thread. In any case, I hope he is right.

Why? Wouldn't it be cool to finally have VR that works?

 

[Ranselknulf]

If you want to embarrass Metro, you can just randomly quote mine his "Build me a PC" thread. In any case, I hope he is right.

Why? Wouldn't it be cool to finally have VR that works?

Not from facebook.

I'm glad I didn't put any money on this. I came close to buying a developer kit.

 

[evdk]

If you want to embarrass Metro, you can just randomly quote mine his "Build me a PC" thread. In any case, I hope he is right.

Why? Wouldn't it be cool to finally have VR that works?

I am lazy and I play computer games because I am lazy - I bought a laptop so I can play games in bed. Anything that implies actual physical movement irritates me.

 

[Ranselknulf]

The first few generations of VR will do a terrible job of motion tracking.

Maybe there will be decent "Holodeck" type motion trackers eventually but I'm not sure that's gonna be widely available during my lifetime.

 

[Morkar Left]

It's basically like working on a job and earning experience while doing it. Then leave the company and get sued for using your experience on a new job

This is the basis of that employer-employee relationship known as the "post-doc".

EDIT: also, remember that ZeniMax's board is staffed by a lot of Entertainment (w/ a capital E) and Hollywood bigwigs, and litigious is often their middle name. The MPAA suits through the early to mid 2000s show how butthurt the studios and principle investors can get.

The point is you can't forbid a software engineer to programm. It's what he learned. For this to count on court you have to be very specific about the work he has done at zenimax and how it is connected to the work at oculus rift or that he physically stole code. I guess that even counts in the USA.

 

[tuluse]

I've heard of some pretty crazy contracts that try and do just that, actually. And either way he would have to prove he never worked on that stuff on company time, or that Occulus never used what he did work on. And Zenimax say they have a written confession of the opposite, so... like I said, could get interesting.

The burden of proof is never on the defendant.

 

[DalekFlay]

I've heard of some pretty crazy contracts that try and do just that, actually. And either way he would have to prove he never worked on that stuff on company time, or that Occulus never used what he did work on. And Zenimax say they have a written confession of the opposite, so... like I said, could get interesting.

The burden of proof is never on the defendant.

Zenimax say they have a written confession that some of the code written under their watch was being used. I imagine Carmack is going to have to refute that written statement somehow. The burden of casting doubt on Zenimax's evidence is on him.

 

[tuluse]

Zenimax say they have a written confession that some of the code written under their watch was being used. I imagine Carmack is going to have to refute that written statement somehow. The burden of casting doubt on Zenimax's evidence is on him.

Carmack: I wrote that on my time off.
Judge: Does Zenimax has proof that Carmack was working on this during time paid for by Bethesda?

 

[Spectacle]

It also matters a lot what this allegedly stolen code has been used for. Unless it's actually part of a shipped product zionmax will have a hard time getting more than a token payout.

 

[DalekFlay]

Zenimax say they have a written confession that some of the code written under their watch was being used. I imagine Carmack is going to have to refute that written statement somehow. The burden of casting doubt on Zenimax's evidence is on him.

Carmack: I wrote that on my time off.
Judge: Does Zenimax has proof that Carmack was working on this during time paid for by Bethesda?

According to them they then say "yes your honor, we have this written stipulation." I'm not sure what you're misunderstanding here.

 

[Metro]

Zenimax say they have a written confession that some of the code written under their watch was being used. I imagine Carmack is going to have to refute that written statement somehow. The burden of casting doubt on Zenimax's evidence is on him.

Carmack: I wrote that on my time off.
Judge: Does Zenimax has proof that Carmack was working on this during time paid for by Bethesda?

Does it really work that way? If a lawyer works at a large law firm then he doesn't really have 'off hours.' That is, he can't take on his own clients in his spare time. Obviously programming is a little different but it depends on how his contract is worded. I can easily see it including all programming work created by an individual during the length of the contract.

 

[DalekFlay]

Does it really work that way? If a lawyer works at a large law firm then he doesn't really have 'off hours.' That is, he can't take on his own clients in his spare time. Obviously programming is a little different but it depends on how his contract is worded. I can easily see it including all programming work created by an individual during the length of the contract.

People here seem to be assuming the mighty Carmack would not have signed such a contract. I am not so sure. Either way Zenimax say they have written confirmation from Occulus that some of their owned IP is involved, so Occulus have to refute that written statement.

 

[Metro]

His leverage/clout doesn't seem to relevant. It would be odd to see an employment contract that partitioned 'work' product and 'funsies-time' product. Especially for programmers who often work odd hours. Anyway, Zenimax will win. Why? They have far more money to spend on legal fees than OR.

 

[evdk]

His leverage/clout doesn't seem to relevant. It would be odd to see an employment contract that partitioned 'work' product and 'funsies-time' product. Especially for programmers who often work odd hours. Anyway, Zenimax will win. Why? They have far more money to spend on legal fees than OR.

How does stuff like GitHub work then? Is this some kind of corporate slavery or what?

 

[tuluse]

His leverage/clout doesn't seem to relevant. It would be odd to see an employment contract that partitioned 'work' product and 'funsies-time' product. Especially for programmers who often work odd hours. Anyway, Zenimax will win. Why? They have far more money to spend on legal fees than OR.

Carmark wasn't really a programmer anymore at id. He was an executive.

 

[Infinitron]

Anyway, Zenimax will win. Why? They have far more money to spend on legal fees than OR.

Uh, hello. Facebook.

 

[Metro]

Anyway, Zenimax will win. Why? They have far more money to spend on legal fees than OR.

Uh, hello. Facebook.

Touche. Forgot about that.

 

[Daemongar]

Zenimax say they have a written confession that some of the code written under their watch was being used. I imagine Carmack is going to have to refute that written statement somehow. The burden of casting doubt on Zenimax's evidence is on him.

Carmack: I wrote that on my time off.
Judge: Does Zenimax has proof that Carmack was working on this during time paid for by Bethesda?

Does it really work that way? If a lawyer works at a large law firm then he doesn't really have 'off hours.' That is, he can't take on his own clients in his spare time. Obviously programming is a little different but it depends on how his contract is worded. I can easily see it including all programming work created by an individual during the length of the contract.

I'm reminded of the Bratz case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Bryant#Legal_actions) In effect, the creator of Bratz dolls (those slut dolls for kids) left Mattel and went to work for MGA. There he "created" the Bratz dolls. Mattel argued the idea was developed while he was at Mattel. That case was initially won by Mattel but eventually did a complete 360 and was won by MGA. A fascinating case, as Mattel argued the creator of Bratz came up with the idea while employed at Mattel.

The same could apply here: Carmack's ideas, if initially created or developed at Zenimax would retain the property of Zenimax, even if he didn't code those ideas out. Well, I am assuming.

 

[Metro]

There was a similar instance with Parker Brothers or Milton Bradley and one of their/competitor's games. I can't recall what it is now... might have even been Dark Tower?

Edit: Nevermind, it was sort of the reverse situation:

Milton Bradley was sued by two men, Alan Coleman and Roger Burten, who claimed to have presented the original concept for Dark Tower to Milton Bradley in the late 1970s, at which point, MB declined to pursue it, but thereafter "independently" developed the game.[8] One of the Dark Tower game designers claims the court's decision was unfair.[9] As part of the resolution of the lawsuit, Milton Bradley pulled the game off the market, and it was never republished.

Carmark wasn't really a programmer anymore at id. He was an executive.

While that might technically be true I'm sure they didn't hire him to manage the finances or handle human resources. He's an idea man. And it's entirely possible the contract is worded as such that anything he came up with while under their employ is their property. While that might sound draconian/slavish let's remember that guys like Carmack are being paid precisely for that: their ideas/brainstorming/intellectual output.

 

[Kz3r0]

It's funny how so many people put so much stock in an ubernerd legal awareness, probably Carmack had simply go through the motions and signed a standard contract while getting a certain job position based more on paycheck and hierarchy more than the effective role he had in the company.
I guess that will be quicly settled out of court tho, too much bad press for a game company here if things continue.

 

[Davaris]

He's the most famous games programmer in history. He would name his conditions.

What I can't figure out, is why he wanted to work for them in the first place. He's not exactly poor.

 

[tuluse]

He's the most famous games programmer in history. He would name his conditions.

What I can't figure out, is why he wanted to work for them in the first place. He's not exactly poor.

I'm pretty sure he didn't want to run id anymore. So he sold his company to Bethesda and found something interesting to work on.

 

[Davaris]

He's the most famous games programmer in history. He would name his conditions.

What I can't figure out, is why he wanted to work for them in the first place. He's not exactly poor.

I'm pretty sure he didn't want to run id anymore. So he sold his company to Bethesda and found something interesting to work on.

Okay that makes sense. Normally when they sell their company, they agree to stay for a few years to help with the transition.

 

[Metro]

Oculus is going to be DOA, why bother?

Preserving this quote for the future, once the Rift takes off I'll put it in my .sig

Takes off... with shitty Facebook-type applications? Be sure to bronze that shit in your sig.

 

[Infinitron]

His leverage/clout doesn't seem to relevant. It would be odd to see an employment contract that partitioned 'work' product and 'funsies-time' product. Especially for programmers who often work odd hours. Anyway, Zenimax will win. Why? They have far more money to spend on legal fees than OR.

Carmark wasn't really a programmer anymore at id. He was an executive.

Where are you getting this

Carmack wasn't the CEO/GM of id. That was Hollenshead.