AoD dex' reviews

[hivemind]

Also since we are talking about lore here now I have a question

Spoiler

when you descend from the minaret in Maadoran and have the mechanical eye installed there is a mention of some high tech structures in the skies above Maadoran that the magus 'could have been trying to reach'(rough paraphrase), what's that all about ?

I at first thought that it was the remains of a shield mechanism that protected the rest of Maadoran from the missiles that ruined the Abyss but I'm not really sure

 

[Irenaeus II]

GoT is horrible and Feudalism is such a powerful system that it gave birth to the best civilization in this planet: Western. Modernism is decandent and will be replaced by feudalism in our lifetimes.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I had an idea for a location when I wrote that bit (that's where the magus tried to get to before he died) - a hub above the city built on another plane. It's not cut content as it was never planned originally, but it was something extra I wanted to do if the game sells well enough to warrant longer post-release development time.

 

[Shadenuat]

We went for something different:

Regardless of the setting and matters of taste, I don't dislike the prose. I dislike that presence of these things is forced onto all characters indiscriminately, especially at the endgame. Allowing the player to act during the game almost freely in his role (within constraints of how the game is built on systemic level of course) and then doing your own Navarro-Oil Rig final rush is like taking the candy from a baby. As a Merchant I'd prefer to end the game as one, as Thief - as a criminal on his well deserved rest, etc.
But I repeated that stuff too many times already.

I had an idea for a location when I wrote that bit (that's where the magus tried to get to before he died) - a hub above the city built on another plane. It's not cut content as it was never planned originally, but it was something extra I wanted to do if the game sells well enough to warrant longer post-release development time.

 

[hivemind]

As a Merchant I'd prefer to end the game as one, as Thief - as a criminal on his well deserved rest, etc.

well but you can just walk away and let sleeping octopi lie

 

[Shadenuat]

well but you can just walk away and let sleeping octopi lie

Doing nothing also has consequences, and not all characters can just walk away.
And let's not forget that before that you have to somehow beat one of two locations, one called friggin "Hellgate" and guarded by ancient death machines, and other "Dead River" which is, well, what it is.

Just the perfect honeymoon my jew always dreamed about.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Dead River is fine, can't understand the complaints

 

[Commissar Draco]

The farmer was a stand-out character because he was like the only NPC that talked like a nice person which made me suspect him of having some extremely sinister plan like cutting off children's heads to add them to his farmland manure.

If you talked to Daratan army veteran you can meet in Maradon Antidas is nice chap too; Noble caring about his men unlike those Joos from Comercium; too bad that Vince made him into Mister Disaster... or Jinxed.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Regardless of the setting and matters of taste, I don't dislike the prose. I dislike that presence of these things is forced onto all characters indiscriminately, especially at the endgame. Allowing the player to act during the game almost freely in his role (within constraints of how the game is built on systemic level of course) and then doing your own Navarro-Oil Rig final rush is like taking the candy from a baby. As a Merchant I'd prefer to end the game as one, as Thief - as a criminal on his well deserved rest, etc.

Then leave the temple without raising the god's tomb and you'll end the game as a free-willing merchant or thief. You don't have to wake up the god. In fact, a lot of things you learn in game is there to help you make this decision.

 

[Shadenuat]

Then leave the temple without raising the god's tomb and you'll end the game as a free-willing merchant or thief. You don't have to wake up the god. In fact, a lot of things you learn in game is there to help you make this decision.

But why the fuck do I have to go there to begin with?

I don't know how it was at first, but I think AoD turned out to be RPG advanced enough to actually support different ending paths. Maybe if Guild/background paths weren't as expansive, and were more like Elder Scroll's guilds, AoD would have required "wrapping up" finishing line content.
But as I see it, it might as well end well without it, just focusing on what player character did in the game.

 

[edhead]

So, the setting is Rome, after the Empire has crumbled and Rome has been sacked. The current major city had seven not-hills, the ranks and positions and many names are Roman-ish, as is some of the garb and gear, they use Roman punishments and enjoy Roman sports and build Roman triumphal arches. Even though there's no evidence of Greco-Roman religion, the assassins are called Boatmen of Styx. But notwithstanding how it appears now, the civilization that collapsed was not Roman and not even not-Roman: it's quite clearly the Near Eastern Bronze Age civilizations, complete with Sea People attacking and cuneiform writing and gods with names appropriate to the fertile crescent, that existed thousands of years before Rome rose let alone fell. And yet that same pre-collapse civilization decorated not-Rome with minarets, which would make not-Rome actually not-Byzantium sometime after the Ottoman conquest (hundreds of years after the fall of the Western Empire, which seems the principal inspiration in AOD). That would fit with the First Magi having a Muslim name and with a major site named al-Akia, except that Magi are Zoroatrian priests, not Muslims, and there's no indication of monotheism. Also, not-Rome (or not-Istanbul) had airships and teleporters and computers and fusion reactors

Spoiler

apparently even before ancient aliens hooked them up with high technology

. And so on. Coming across the Lance of Longinus as a giant ancient weapon just sealed the impression of this as Japanese-ish mishmashery.

Great post . However, there's one thing I just have to disagree about: on one hand, I'd accept this particular criticism if AoD was an historical RPG. One the other hand, this "mishmashery" of ancient historical references is what makes the lore even more interesting, at least for me. Yes, I get that all these historical idiosyncracies might interfere with suspension of disbelief for some, but as I saw it, they mostly served to (1) establish the supposed vastness and diversity of the pre-war Empire and (2) did not make the game rely on a single mythology that would make the lore a lot more predictable and dull as well as catapult it straight into "merely" alternative history land. In my opinion, it's a lot less interesting to explore a world of not-Rome, then to investigate a universe of not-Rome-Greece-Persia-Mesopotamia-Byzantium. To use an imperfect Elder Scrolls analogy, the Empire of AoD was not only Cyrodiil. It owned the whole fucking Tamriel. And that's what (I hope) the "mishmashed" references are able convey.

Of course, it may be just me, but I don't really care that the actual Sea Peoples existed a thousand years before the Romans (by the way, I think you're wrong on the Sea Peoples part, the Qantari look a lot more not-Carthaginian judging from the not-Baal patronage and the Great War resembling the not-Punic wars). I don't really care that the actual Magi were not part of the Roman Empire. Because there is no indication anywhere that AoD is an alternative history game or that the events happen to unfold on Earth.

Having an interest in history myself, I get where you're coming from, but I just don't think that AoD would have benefited from a mythology based on strict historical accuracy of a single civilization.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Qantari are Aztecs

 

[edhead]

Qantari are Aztecs

Oops. Well then, shame on me for thinking that the name, elephants on the battlefield, not-Baal worship an a love-hate relationship with the Empire were implying a Carthaginian origin. Where did you discover that they were actually based on Aztecs?

 

[Irenaeus II]

I asked who they were based on and Vault Dweller told me this.

 

[Shadenuat]

Qantari are Aztecs

 

[edhead]

I asked who they were based on and Vault Dweller told me this.

Interesting. Are there any indications in AoD lore to elaborate on that? Because all the clues seem to indicate Carthaginian influence. Not disputing anything, just curious. Vault Dweller?

 

[Irenaeus II]

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/cultural-influences.14282/#post-256356

 

[Elhoim]

Interesting. Are there any indications in AoD lore to elaborate on that? Because all the clues seem to indicate Carthaginian influence. Not disputing anything, just curious. Vault Dweller?

The Qantari quarters in Al-Akia. Check their sword

 

[edhead]

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/cultural-influences.14282/#post-256356

Got it. My bad, then.

EDIT:

The Qantari quarters in Al-Akia. Check their sword

Will do.

 

[MRY]

“A spear,” the man says reluctantly. “To reclaim my father’s throne.” He straightens up, trying to look the son of a man who once sat on a throne. “It’s called the Divine Spear. It is said that whoever wields it will not be denied."

Yeah, that sounds pretty much like Trevor Ravencroft's account of the Lance of Longinus, which is also called the Holy Spear. My point isn't that they're identical, just that it seems a little silly to claim that there's no overlap between them. If you had a sword that conferred authority in a pseudo-Dark Ages England, you'd be carrying the freight of Excalibur and the Sword in the Stone, and that's just the way cultural artifacts work.

Did you really not intend or foresee any connection between the Divine Spear and the Holy Spear?

technology stuff

Just to be clear, then, what was the state of technology pre-aliens? I gather they knew about gravity wells (and possibly black holes?), because that was how they found the gods. Combustion engines? Airships? Or was all of that post-aliens?

Maadoran doesn't have seven hills (not sure where you got it from) and it's the largest city *left* not the largest city in the pre-war world.

Am I wrong in remembering that pre-war it had "seven districts"? I guess I'm kind of confused. Are you saying the player isn't supposed to associate Maadoran -- with its landmark Colosseum, Roman attire and characters, etc. -- with Rome? I mean, I guess this is kind of the problem I'm talking about. To me, it seems like Maadoran is meant to trigger "Rome" feelings in the player, which gets you a lot of benefits, but also means that of course I'm going to assume it has Rome-ish significance.

Overall, your criticism is well received and I commented not to challenge your position but to comment on some assumptions.

Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt I misunderstood tons of stuff about the game, and that a good share of that misunderstanding is on me, not on the game. But I think a fair amount of it comes from drawing from all over history and then reordering and shifting stuff around.

Qantari

The accounts of the attack are, IIRC, madlibbed from actual accounts of the Sea Peoples' attacks. But I can't remember for sure.

 

[Johannes]

Yeah, the game's not very consistent in its symbolism. Makes it somewhat unpredictable, be that a good or bad thing. Easy to make connections in your head that weren't put there with specific intent.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yeah, that sounds pretty much like Trevor Ravencroft's account of the Lance of Longinus, which is also called the Holy Spear. My point isn't that they're identical, just that it seems a little silly to claim that there's no overlap between them. If you had a sword that conferred authority in a pseudo-Dark Ages England, you'd be carrying the freight of Excalibur and the Sword in the Stone, and that's just the way cultural artifacts work.

Did you really not intend or foresee any connection between the Divine Spear and the Holy Spear?

None. The quote describes a weapon that makes a big boom. Nothing will stand in the way of a person armed with it. The Lance's legends are sketchy at best and very contradictory (unlike those of Excalibur, for example).

Am I wrong in remembering that pre-war it had "seven districts"?

Five.

I guess I'm kind of confused. Are you saying the player isn't supposed to associate Maadoran -- with its landmark Colosseum, Roman attire and characters, etc. -- with Rome? I mean, I guess this is kind of the problem I'm talking about. To me, it seems like Maadoran is meant to trigger "Rome" feelings in the player, which gets you a lot of benefits, but also means that of course I'm going to assume it has Rome-ish significance.

That wasn't my intention at all. At very least I would have designed it very differently then. Not every arena is the Colosseum (and for the record, the arena looks nothing like it) and the Roman attire doesn't necessarily suggest Rome. For example, you can set a game in Egypt when it was a Roman province and have plenty of Romans and Roman attire.

The accounts of the attack are, IIRC, madlibbed from actual accounts of the Sea Peoples' attacks.

I used some stuff from the Bible, Solomon's stories, eyewitnesses describing elephants, etc but nothing from the Sea People. Not that I recall, at least.

 

[Johannes]

I wonder how different the game would feel, if instead of the Roman attires you'd have people in a more conventional medieval (/fantasy) garb.

 

[MRY]

Five.

Jesus. It's frankly a miracle I can function at all in the world. I suppose it's just the Sammy Jankis trick over and over again.

In any case, I feel like this is all very far down in the weeds and fairly tangential to your next project, since I don't imagine that the generation ship will present similar issues.

I am still curious about the pre-alien tech level though . . .

 

[laclongquan]

I wonder how different the game would feel, if instead of the Roman attires you'd have people in a more conventional medieval (/fantasy) garb.

Which setting?

The medieval european has been done to death, with the most recent is Witcher 3.

Asian or Egyptian has the disadvantage of being uninteresting to EU and US players, being snobs that they all are secretly.

Roman has many advantages. Although earlier period, which is Athenian Greek, has some, it really is lesser in term of attractive. I mean, if you are talking about Greco Roma setting, it's naturally Imperial Rome. Ottoman/Byzantine is actually quite interesting but it lack the PR appeal.