All games with overland travel

[Gord]

Albion

new game: Blackguards, although not really, since there's no actual mechanics, i.e. random element to it.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I seriously doubt that there is any game that can beat U5 overland travel. I mean recent examples like W2, Fallout and JRPGs are really quite simplistic. Decide where you have to go, and head in that direction. The only one with any resource management was W2 in form of water management and it quickly became quite pointless since in that game water was fucking everywhere. Made my wonder why Highpool was such a big deal if there wasteland was littered with oases. So why was U5 overland travel so great for me
-There was no world map/automat, you had to learn how to navigate using the physical (or digital) map or sextant. It meant that unlike later game you couldn't just use lawnmower approach and just uncover the whole map
-Resource management was more difficult since you had to make sure that you have enough food, cure poison spells and missiles.
-The terrain actually mattered. Monsters could chase you easier on hills, mountains and forests obstructed your view, which made finding specific locations pretty hard unless you knew where they were
-Day-night cycle added some strategic depth to the exploration. Are you going to camp at night risking a potentially tedious battle with critters or are you gong to keep travelling (possibly using few torches) and risk more battles that you can avoid or run away from easily
-You actually had to get your travelling means. Buying a boat to steal a ship from pirates was very satisfying and so was getting to know where the climbing gear is. In U4 sextant also played this role, but was almost useless in U5 since barely anyone told you coordinates of anything. JRPGs totally screwed it up since in most of them means of travel are got through story missions in a pretty lineal way. Which means they are just another means to get to another location dictated by lineal plot and don't actually feel like means of travel.

The only game that had overland travel on the same level of fun for me was Pirates! (or at least 2006 sequel) Mostly because it's actually a living, breathing world. High points for me:
-You've collected a map of a treasure. These couldn't actually lead you to a treasure like modern quest indicators. You had to find it yourself using orientation points marked on the map. Reminded me of exploring Ultima worlds with a map.
-The world was actually evolving over time. One story from me playing. I was going to a city I wanted to conquer, the galleon with money got in there first, the city got enough money to grow and got some more troops to defend it. I've reloaded and destroyed the galleon before it got into the city. It was an easy conquest.
-Not to mention different countries were constantly fighting against each other and you sometimes had to intervene in order to save a port you liked from falling into the hands of your enemy.
-To find your main enemy from the backstory you actually had to go from port to port and follow clues and actually find the bastard on the open seas.

Wish more RPGs were focused on overworld exploration instead of sob-stories and slaughtering tons of foes.

 

[Niektory]

Expeditions: Conquistador

 

[Machocruz]

(My colleagues claimed modern games do everything old games did, only better)

The Codex's existence is predicated on this not being true, which objectively, it isn't. I hope you won this argument handily.

 

[:Flash:]

I seriously doubt that there is any game that can beat U5 overland travel. I mean recent examples like W2, Fallout and JRPGs are really quite simplistic. Decide where you have to go, and head in that direction. The only one with any resource management was W2 in form of water management and it quickly became quite pointless since in that game water was fucking everywhere. Made my wonder why Highpool was such a big deal if there wasteland was littered with oases. So why was U5 overland travel so great for me
-There was no world map/automat, you had to learn how to navigate using the physical (or digital) map or sextant. It meant that unlike later game you couldn't just use lawnmower approach and just uncover the whole map
-Resource management was more difficult since you had to make sure that you have enough food, cure poison spells and missiles.
-The terrain actually mattered. Monsters could chase you easier on hills, mountains and forests obstructed your view, which made finding specific locations pretty hard unless you knew where they were
-Day-night cycle added some strategic depth to the exploration. Are you going to camp at night risking a potentially tedious battle with critters or are you gong to keep travelling (possibly using few torches) and risk more battles that you can avoid or run away from easily
-You actually had to get your travelling means. Buying a boat to steal a ship from pirates was very satisfying and so was getting to know where the climbing gear is. In U4 sextant also played this role, but was almost useless in U5 since barely anyone told you coordinates of anything. JRPGs totally screwed it up since in most of them means of travel are got through story missions in a pretty lineal way. Which means they are just another means to get to another location dictated by lineal plot and don't actually feel like means of travel.

Hmm, Ultima V and Realms of Arkania are the reference points for me, and I guess part of the reason for this thread is trying to find out if there are other games that do overland travel as good as those. I almost fear that's not the case.
But still the other games in this thread are a good reference, because I want to check out some theories about overland travel I have.

(My colleagues claimed modern games do everything old games did, only better)

The Codex's existence is predicated on this not being true, which objectively, it isn't. I hope you won this argument handily.

Well, my colleagues admitted that the new games don't do everything old games did, but they claimed they could do it, if they wanted. My point was that some mechanics are impossible (or don't really work well) with realistic graphics and require more abstract graphics, i.e. the abstract graphics of Ultima V are a requirement for the overland travel to work in the way it does. That is what I want to investigate further.

 

[Gord]

My point was that some mechanics are impossible (or don't really work well) with realistic graphics and require more abstract graphics, i.e. the abstract graphics of Ultima V are a requirement for the overland travel to work in the way it does. That is what I want to investigate further.

I think that's certainly true for some mechanics, like e.g. combat. Overland travel is always an abstraction though and thus isn't as reliant on presentation, I think.
I guess Bethesda could have done Skyrim with overland travel, keeping both the normal 3D graphics and the map as they are. But the focus (or buzzword) is seamless open worlds, at the cost of making those worlds cramped and unrealistically small.
I think that if you want to maximise realism and plausibility, while keeping the game fun and preventing boredom, overland travel maps are still the best approach, but sadly they are quite out of fashion.

 

[eremita]

The Overland Map in Storm of Zehir is a great example of gameplay enrichment, because we have a rare oportunity to compare it to OC/MotB. Thanks to Overland Map, almost every skill (and therefore class too) is useful in the game or doesn't benefit the player only in case of combat/dialogue.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

"Legend", a.ka. "Four Crystals of Trazere" had an overland map that was both used for travel between dungeons and also displayed enemy armies that could be 'encountered', which was usually not a good idea.

"Challenge of the Five Realms" had an overland map that was constantly being 'eaten' by a fog of darkness, making the game a time-race to reach certain places before they would get consumed and inaccessible.

Another slightly different approach was used by "Anvil of Dawn" where the overland map was an in-game level where each 'step' represented a massive journey, compared to each step within each dungeon. Sort of a first-person approach to the Ultima overland travel, it even had basic gameplay and NPC interactions.

 

[laclongquan]

JRPG with overland map: most notable tittles
Cronos Trigger
Cronos Cross
Suikoden 1-3 (havent played 4.5 so cant say)
Legend of Mana, I think has the most unique map mechanic of all jrpg.
Final Fantasy series.
God, it's a ton of them.

 

[V_K]

Hmm, Ultima V and Realms of Arkania are the reference points for me, and I guess part of the reason for this thread is trying to find out if there are other games that do overland travel as good as those. I almost fear that's not the case.

Magic Candle games (plus Bloodstone) certainly come close, especially the later ones. Highlights include weather conditions; having to dress for the weather/terrain; skills, spells and items that help with travelling and a variety of camping options.
Darklands and Tunnels&Trolls both had encounters, both combat and non-combat, random and unique, that happened strictly on the world map. Both also had a number of travel-specific mechanics although not quite on a RoA/MC level.

 

[No Great Name]

Well, my colleagues admitted that the new games don't do everything old games did, but they claimed they could do it, if they wanted. My point was that some mechanics are impossible (or don't really work well) with realistic graphics and require more abstract graphics, i.e. the abstract graphics of Ultima V are a requirement for the overland travel to work in the way it does. That is what I want to investigate further.

If this is your claim, then why focus on overland travel? Why not bring up a game such as Dwarf Fortress and explain how its mechanics can never be represented with realistic graphics by any game today?

 

[Machocruz]

but they claimed they could do it, if they wanted.

 

[:Flash:]

Well, my colleagues admitted that the new games don't do everything old games did, but they claimed they could do it, if they wanted. My point was that some mechanics are impossible (or don't really work well) with realistic graphics and require more abstract graphics, i.e. the abstract graphics of Ultima V are a requirement for the overland travel to work in the way it does. That is what I want to investigate further.

If this is your claim, then why focus on overland travel? Why not bring up a game such as Dwarf Fortress and explain how its mechanics can never be represented with realistic graphics by any game today?

I don't do this because I want to prove something, I do this because overland travel is a favourite game mechanic of mine (if done right), and I want to know more about it. That discussion was just something that triggered it.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Someoen alreayd mentioend Darklands, but I don't recall how invovled its overland travel is. Is there resource management? Do you have to heed the terrain? CAn you see monsters on the map? Is there day and night? Can you ever get sick? Etc.

........
As I said I'm talking about overland travel that is displayed on another scale than the rest of the game. It is a good thing (IMO), because it is an abstraction that allows the illusion of exploring an entire country or continent. Without this abstraction, you'd either have an unplayable game where it takes real-time hours or days to walk from town to town, or you have a shrinking of the world to a condensed version. The difference can be seen between Ultima V and VI. The latter did away with the two-scale model, Thus shrinking Britannnia from a continent to an island.
.......

I don't agree overland travel can't work without higher abstraction, but then again I think fast travel techniques via mark/recall (like in Ultima Online) and some other forms, like waygates, are viable routes. Whether you choose to have an overland system or to just travel via instant teleports (or fast methods of travel), both are going to condense the world, since the original is too big. Of course, I'm the kind of gamer which loves to explore places, even if it means wandering around. However, I still very much want a means to fast travel, and especially like the mark/recall method, as the player gets to determine where it happens and has to organize the runes or put them in books. I also have in the past enjoyed SOME micromanagement, but not too much.

I'm the kind of person who wants to think about everything. I don't like cheap/quick/mindless stuff. For example, waygates are more intersting if they involve a cost or a cooldown or something similar. That way you can weigh them against other travel options, like mark/recall or running (with run spell) or flying on the back of a creature. I also like there to be terrain which varies, so there're mountains and cliffs and rivers and plains too. Another thing I've enjoyed is twisting/turning 3d dungeons which have secret yet quick routes to places. It's rewarding you when you explore and find a quicker route than normal. I don't want any single tragvle option to BE THE BEST. Having to juggle it all in my head an ddetermine my next course of action is what makes it fun.

Most games I play make it too simple or they make it too expensive to have a variety of methods. When it's too simple there's no thinking, so it's not fun. When it's too expensive it's not fun for the same reason; no variety = no thinking.

I fear sometiems I'm too much of a minority in my preferances. A lot of times in games when I post in the forums I feel like 90% disagree. And I don't tend to associate myself with those who agree - just nod at them. I mean how fun is life if you only stick around people you agree with? And oftentimes, especially in MMO's, my in-game persona is completely different. When I'm playing in the MMO, I'm not normally talking about game mechanics. The people I play with could be anybody, even people I adamantly disagree with. I think ti'd be enlightening if I could KNOW the true idenitty of all the players I've in teracted with.

One of my theories is I'm just technical or engineer-ish. Maybe I enjoy more than most players adding up numbers or to try to figure them out? Or just in general adding up varying things in my mind to compare them? I've been a programmer almost all my life and have had a calculator with me for over 20 years. I've literally created equations and programs for games I play. So it makes sense to me that something in my head just prefers to weigh/compare stuff and that's where I get my fun.

Maybe I smacked my head on something when I was a baby. Lord knows I've been OCD-ish or perfectionist. I hate to bring all this up, but it's undeniable all I wrote above and it comes natural to me to link it to my physiology or neurology.

 

[rezaf]

Someoen alreayd mentioend Darklands, but I don't recall how invovled its overland travel is. Is there resource management? Do you have to heed the terrain? CAn you see monsters on the map? Is there day and night? Can you ever get sick? Etc.

Darklands doesn't dwell on it's overland map. There's day and night, but you barely notice it when travelling (there's a tiny indicator). But you can and will arrive at cities any time of the day, and if you stroll through the woods at night, I think there's a heightened possibility to be attacked by a pack of wolves or something.
Likewise, certain types of encounters will only pop up on specific kinds of terrain. I think terrain also affects you travelling speed, but that effect is greatly diminished once you get horses.

I mentioned Darklands because it made effective use of it's seperate map mode - and the things it did there cannot be reproduced in a first person only game, or at least it's much harder. The "surprise" angle when you ran into bandits or spiders, waldschrate or wolves, the tithe collector or the ambushed merchants - how would you reproduce that if the player would see these things coming miles away?
The Elder Scrolls games tried some stuff like this - think the soldiers with a prisoner in Skyrim you meet on the roadside - but it's rare and not as effective.

DL has a wide variety of things you can encounter, and - especially back in the day, when you couldn't just look up a list on the internet - the random nature made it so you could never be sure there wasn't some kind of cool event you hadn't seen yet.

Compare this to the half arsed overland mode in WL2 (the last game I played that comes to mind featuring one), and you can't help to be disappointed. An overland map as implemented by WL2 would have looked bad in 1993.

Anyway, that's why I think the Darklands overland map is notable.
_____
rezaf

 

[Lilura]

Storm of Zehir's overland map is numero uno.

1) It's 3d, but in a fixed perspective (for isometric lovers)
2) a large array of skills work on the overland (spot, listen, search, survival, hide, spellcraft etc)
3) terrain affects travelling speed, as do racial, feat and skill modifiers of the character (some feats are tailored to terrain type, and implemented)
4) It tells you the exact time of day, with day/night cycles and variable weather
5) hostile/neutral and special encounters, random aggro
6) dialogue in overland mode with full functionality (social skill checks etc) and ability to parley/bribe
7) item use in dialogue of random encounters (entangle the enemy and run etc)
8) can optionally join battles to help out allies, and later your own soldiers and caravans (in Soz you create your own merchant empire, and watch it grow on the overland.)
9) full trade interface on the overland, buy and sell resources at towns without entering them
10) right-click on anything to find out more info (description window)
11) height maps, impassable terrain (streams, cliffs), bottlenecks
12) world map overlay
13) can loot detected treasures and resources without entering an area
14) you can rest with risk of ambush (no need to enter an area)
15) solid feeling of exploration and discovery
16) fully moddable - change it how you like, mods have implemented naval exploration, you buy ships, your own fleet, and sail around islands and shit fighting pirates..

 

[Musaab]

Shroud of the Avatar is featuring such a map. Release 15 will have the new Novia map, and later they will do a pass over the Hidden Vale map. The game is still in pre-alpha, but it's coming along amazingly.

 

[naossano]

It would have been better if the OP provided examples. I am not sure i got what overland travel means for him/her.

If it is travel like Fallout 1, Fallout 2 and Fallout Tactics, i think of some interesting variations.

- Wasteland 1 & Wasteland 2. Some of these features changed between 1 & 2 so everything might not apply to both. Beside the usual random encounters, you have differences of ground. You can't go through mountain. If you fall in the river, you will end up further south, and hurt (especially with low swim). If you go into the desert without canteen, you will be hurt and sick. If you go in irradiated land, you will be even more sick/hurt. But the thing is, you only see radiated land during nighttime. Otherwise, you have to rely of geiger counter, which only tell you if you are close to radiated land, but don't tel you the direction. There is not a big amount of complexity, but those things matter.

- Baldur's Gate. You have a worldmap, but you can only move to connected map (from what i recall). Yet, you can have random encounters during those travels.

- Games likes heroes of might and magic, Disciples, Conquistador or Civilization don't have really a worldmap, but it seems to work the same way IMO. You have a representation of your party/character/unit, on a scale that is far, compared to other isometric games, and when you interact with others units/locations/object, you are on one other screen.

 

[btbgfel]

There are many oversea travel games as well.

 

[Jools]

Monkey Island.

 

[eremita]

Storm of Zehir's overland map is numero uno.

1) It's 3d, but in a fixed perspective (for isometric lovers)
2) a large array of skills work on the overland (spot, listen, search, survival, hide, spellcraft etc)
3) terrain affects travelling speed, as do racial, feat and skill modifiers of the character (some feats are tailored to terrain type, and implemented)
4) It tells you the exact time of day, with day/night cycles and variable weather
5) hostile/neutral and special encounters, random aggro
6) dialogue in overland mode with full functionality (social skill checks etc) and ability to parley/bribe
7) item use in dialogue of random encounters (entangle the enemy and run etc)
8) can optionally join battles to help out allies, and later your own soldiers and caravans (in Soz you create your own merchant empire, and watch it grow on the overland.)
9) full trade interface on the overland, buy and sell resources at towns without entering them
10) right-click on anything to find out more info (description window)
11) height maps, impassable terrain (streams, cliffs), bottlenecks
12) world map overlay
13) can loot detected treasures and resources without entering an area
14) you can rest with risk of ambush (no need to enter an area)
15) solid feeling of exploration and discovery
16) fully moddable - change it how you like, mods have implemented naval exploration, you buy ships, your own fleet, and sail around islands and shit fighting pirates..

Yep. It's underrated on the codex, asi is the whole expansion,

 

[laclongquan]

But that 200+ areas loading at once~ Mang, I feel tired just looking at that. Cant they reduce the loading somehow?

And yeah, that's about the only complaint I have againts SoZ's overworld. Unfortunately, it's a nearly dealbreaker.

EDIT: A side issue is the tiny dungeon make for Persistent spell unneeded. Extend is good enough

 

[Xenich]

My point was that some mechanics are impossible (or don't really work well) with realistic graphics and require more abstract graphics, i.e. the abstract graphics of Ultima V are a requirement for the overland travel to work in the way it does. That is what I want to investigate further.

I think that's certainly true for some mechanics, like e.g. combat. Overland travel is always an abstraction though and thus isn't as reliant on presentation, I think.
I guess Bethesda could have done Skyrim with overland travel, keeping both the normal 3D graphics and the map as they are. But the focus (or buzzword) is seamless open worlds, at the cost of making those worlds cramped and unrealistically small.
I think that if you want to maximise realism and plausibility, while keeping the game fun and preventing boredom, overland travel maps are still the best approach, but sadly they are quite out of fashion.

Though if you used an overland map in the case of of an open worlds game, you change the style and feel of the game. There is nothing wrong with either "open seamless worlds" or "overland maps" game, but have their own flavor and feel.