Editorial 20 RPGs Every Game Designer Should Play @ Gamasutra

[Delterius]

Todd Howard keeps trying to make a first person Ultima VII with no depth and Bioware keeps trying to make PST with cardboard characters.

That's unfair. Pieces of cardboard most certainly don't remember things later on, while pleasing themselves with great respect.

Actually, it was featured on Gamasutra's twitter just today / yesterday (depending on your time zone), so it might not be such a coincidence after all.

Oh, that's fine. Its just that our hivemind is jumping the gun. I mean, it is evident that felipepepe is reaching for the stars and will become a very referenced scholar of RPGonomics. Millions will flock to his house to understand what RPGs are, but only a few will survive the treck through the regularly flooded streets of São Paulo. Once our beloved photoshopper has reached the highest echelons of twitter driven fame, The Man will have to struggle with the fact that he's out of the dark realms of Codexia.

On another note, I can't wrap my head around including NIS and Tales Of on the list.

First, while I really enjoyed both Soul Nomad and the first Disgaea, the Nippon Ichi section itself includes a much better alternative for this sort of game in the Tactics Ogre series.

Also, is it just me or Tales was included just as the token Action game from Japan? I've seen the goon let's play of Vesperia and there doesn't seem to be much of anything unique to the series. Again, take your pick from so many different series that were much more influential on the japanese side of things.

Still, the Tales Of section does include a quote that can be weaponized against fans of Morrowind who are picky about what constitutes an RPG.

The one thing, however, that seems to guarantee a game with action battles will get labeled an RPG is some application of statistics to the fight. One example: few deny that Secret of Mana is an RPG, but the thing about it that most distinguishes it from action-adventure games is that, when you hit an enemy with your sword, you might not actually hit.

:>

 

[bonescraper]

Hyperbole is strong in this thread.

 

[Damned Registrations]

If you're making a list of things a developer should play, popularity or quality aren't really relevant, what matters is that they offer a variety of perspectives on the format. In that regard, the Tales series is a better addition than a lot of the more popular ones there (Final Fantasy is, for the most part, so derivative it's pointless to include unless you specified maybe 3 or 5), and a lot of the series (Ultima especially) would really need to be broken up, because it evolved so much over time. You could grab any Dragon Quest game after the first one and have more or less a lot of the same aspects throughout, but the same couldn't be said of Ultima. Ultima 3 is completely different than 4, they're hardly related at all.

Overall, list is a clusterfuck, but not because it included whatever weeaboo game codex hates at the moment.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Heh, the Final Fantasy page is basically "what is a jRPG?" rant.

Tales of has got to be the worst jRPG series out there. Why would anyone include that in any list? Or NIS games for that matter. It's obvious that the article writers knowledge on jRPGs is on the shallow side and so probably should've left them out entirely.

The "sidescroller" real time combat is heaps of fun and it avoids most of the JRPG traps like grinding and nonsensical guessing game to progress the plot (which is often of dubious quality, but eh). I wouldn't necessarily include it on a "Must play" list but it's not total ass either.

Dragon Quest games still use, for instance, cursed items, gauntlet dungeons that players must conserve resources to pass, difficult boss monsters, and a generally upbeat atmosphere. The fact that the game can be slowly and steadily conquered by all players, equipped only with perseverance, seems to be key to the series' popularity in Japan.

This reminds me of a story posted by a guy that used to work in that Nintendo Hotline service (hints via phone). An old man in a retirement home would call him often to ask about DQ1, that being the only game at hand that didn't require fast reflexes.

 

[Gozma]

Damn that list is pretty fuckin' hardcore on the CRPG side, although it's probably about like 60 games if you add up all the series. Not exactly a primer. If he's gonna say "the Gold Box series" he might as well have said all Infinity Engine games too, what's another 150 hours of coursework?

 

[Damned Registrations]

What really strikes me about the whole thing is that, even with such a large list, it'd still be missing out on a lot of important games. I think the way Phantasy Star 4 did it's narrative, with sort of comic book style unfolding cutscenes, was very original and effective, and something quite valuable to a potential developer (not to mention just generally having a very unique style). Plenty of other games have similar insights. It's kind of crazy to think of just how varied just this particular genre of game has gotten over a relatively short period of time. You really would need to experience a ton of games to get anything close to a comprehensive knowledge of just this genre.


(Skip to ~15 minutes for the cutscene)

 

[MRY]

Not to mention, I think Phantasy Star I might be the first RPG (Japanese or otherwise) with a strongly defined player character. (No doubt someone will produce a dozen counter-examples, but none immediately pops to mind.)

 

[Crooked Bee]

Omission of important RPGs is pretty much inevitable when you focus on the most succesful series, though. I did refer to this earlier ITT already, I believe.

 

[MRY]

But Phantasy Star was a hugely successful series: it was the flagship RPG on the Sega Master System and Sega Genesis systems and spawned a very successful MMO (as well as a bunch of lesser spin-off series). I'm hardly an expert on jRPG, but during my growing up (80s and 90s) it was viewed as a legitimate rival to Final Fantasy, at least in the U.S. And I think it can fairly be credited with establishing the "science fantasy" vein of jRPGs that includes Lunar, Xenogears, etc.

 

[eric__s]

What really strikes me about the whole thing is that, even with such a large list, it'd still be missing out on a lot of important games. I think the way Phantasy Star 4 did it's narrative, with sort of comic book style unfolding cutscenes, was very original and effective, and something quite valuable to a potential developer (not to mention just generally having a very unique style). Plenty of other games have similar insights. It's kind of crazy to think of just how varied just this particular genre of game has gotten over a relatively short period of time. You really would need to experience a ton of games to get anything close to a comprehensive knowledge of just this genre.


(Skip to ~15 minutes for the cutscene)

I don't think the narrative style is enough to warrant inclusion on a list of 20 games an RPG designer must play. Phantasy Star I was very important, 4 was a (very good!) product of its time. Some of these JRPGs, like Final Fantasy, are important to understand the form of the genre, but a lot of these games play on the archetype instead of expand on it. These are games that would equip someone to make more status quo games, not something new. In fact, a lot of the games I'd include wouldn't be RPGs at all. Mario 3, Thief.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Phantasy Star Online also pretty much pioneered console online games. They weren't really a thing until then. RIP Dreamcast.

 

[Crooked Bee]

But Phantasy Star was a hugely successful series: it was the flagship RPG on the Sega Master System and Sega Genesis systems and spawned a very successful MMO (as well as a bunch of lesser spin-off series). I'm hardly an expert on jRPG, but during my growing up (80s and 90s) it was viewed as a legitimate rival to Final Fantasy, at least in the U.S. And I think it can fairly be credited with establishing the "science fantasy" vein of jRPGs that includes Lunar, Xenogears, etc.

Success can mean different things historically vs from today's standpoint, though.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Not to mention, I think Phantasy Star I might be the first RPG (Japanese or otherwise) with a strongly defined player character.

A female, at that.

 

[lurker3000]

July 2, 2009

???

I blame felipepepe.

One of you two should look back and find the codex thread about this when it first came out. I nominate CB because she is the one posting old links.

Or maybe felipepepe because it is apparently his fault.

 

[MRY]

One of you two should look back and find the codex thread about this when it first came out. I nominate CB because she is the one posting old links.

Google to the rescue!

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/game-design-essentials-20-rpgs-in-22-pages.34168/

[EDIT: Can't find the General RPG Discussion thread mentioned in the link, though. Incidentally, I have to say, seems like things have inclined since 2009.]

 

[lurker3000]

Best post in that thread:

Higher Game is biased, he sticks hamsters in his ass

Anyway I think the other thread had better commentary. Its been almost 6 years though so its all fuzzy.

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

no borderlands on the list?

 

[Dev_Anj]

This should have been renamed "20 RPG series I like" because it is a list of 20 RPG series, not 20 games. Also, what's more important while choosing x number of games to play isn't whether you enjoy them or not, but how much they teach you. Not that the list affects me anyway..

Oh, also everything past WoW is Japanese...

Haven't we gone through this before? Isn't it more important that games should be judged by their qualities, and not by which country they are from? Though I generally don't care much about the Japanese variety of RPGs(or RPGs in general, to be frank.)

 

[Archibald]

But Phantasy Star was a hugely successful series: it was the flagship RPG on the Sega Master System and Sega Genesis systems and spawned a very successful MMO (as well as a bunch of lesser spin-off series). I'm hardly an expert on jRPG, but during my growing up (80s and 90s) it was viewed as a legitimate rival to Final Fantasy, at least in the U.S. And I think it can fairly be credited with establishing the "science fantasy" vein of jRPGs that includes Lunar, Xenogears, etc.

Success can mean different things historically vs from today's standpoint, though.

Whats the success of Wasteland (keep in mind that this was written before Kickstarter resurrected it), Nethack or Wizardy? I'm not saying that they are bad games or didn't influence other things, but nobody really cares or remembers them so I'd hardly call that a "success".

I like Fire Emblem series, but including it as series in such list? Man, that series had like two games that changed anything in the formula and has been rapidly declining since first GBA game I'd say. Fuck, include first FE which started the series and the one that introduced generational thing (forgot how its called, its on SNES I think), everything else is just copy paste with new faces. Even storyline is identical in every game with kindgom getting assaulted, prince (or princess) running away and later reclaiming the throne and obviously saving the world in the process.

 

[Kalin]

Having Pokemon on the list instead of Shin Megami Tensei is like throwing in Fallout: Three-Dawg instead of Fallout. Absolutely haram!

 

[Morality Games]

Having Pokemon on the list instead of Shin Megami Tensei is like throwing in Fallout: Three-Dawg instead of Fallout. Absolutely haram!

That'd be like choosing an edgy Russian cartoon over Pixar's best films. Only a hipster would do it.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Having Pokemon on the list instead of Shin Megami Tensei is like throwing in Fallout: Three-Dawg instead of Fallout. Absolutely haram!

Yeah.

Honestly, I wonder if folks at Atlus are more than a little envious of the runaway success of Pokemon. MegaTen games pioneered the idea of commanding a party of monsters through blob-style battles centered around elemental affinities/weaknesses. And in many ways, they're much better at it than Pokemon*; recruiting new monsters is much more interesting, fusion makes it likely that the player will actually use more than 10% of the total bestiary, battle are more than 1-on-1 "conga lines", etc. Maybe, somewhere in Japan, a dude is kicking himself for choosing a confluence of mythological entities as the motif for his game, rather than cutesy animals.

*Obviously Pokemon has some of it's own strengths that made it successful, chief among them the way in which multiplayer was implemented through trading/battling. Single player games with well-integrated multiplayer components (e.g. old brawlers with co-op, Souls series) are sure-fire winners in the greater gaming market.

It's kind of crazy to think of just how varied just this particular genre of game has gotten over a relatively short period of time. You really would need to experience a ton of games to get anything close to a comprehensive knowledge of just this genre.

Even acquiring a cursory knowledge of the genre is pretty daunting, especially compared to other forms of media. Going through the AFI Top 100 might take a month and a half for someone who has never seen any film on it. Clearing all of the Codex Top 70 might take the better part of two years...and that's with dedication (a.k.a. no life) and quick play! And again, it's only cursory knowledge of the best of western, computer role-playing games. This hypothetical person will still be absent much knowledge about their Japanese counterparts, pen&paper role-playing games, or any other related (sub)genres in gaming. And they won't really have a proper barometer for quality, not knowing how good they have it playing titles like Torment, Gothic, or Curse of the Azure Bonds instead of DA2, Oblivion, or Ruins of Myth Drannor.

I think there's probably a point to be made about good gaming "criticism" to be made here, that the nature of the medium presents a tough challenge to would-be critics; it's going to take a lot of work to build up a solid base of knowledge, even in one genre. And because games are played, because mechanics are so core to the experience, just bullshitting with whatever academic jargon is in vogue isn't going to cut it, despite how much many Critical Theory types (and other ivory tower assholes) want it to, allowing them to merely use the same argumentative/rhetorical frameworks they've deployed elsewhere.

 

[felipepepe]

That's why what we need are specialists. It can be a pain to learn all about RPG history if you are a 16-years old kid that plays all AAA releases, but it shouldn't be that hard to be knowledgeable about them if you're a RPG fan in your late 20's - early 30's.

Sadly, once game magazines began to die, specialists vanished and we were left with a bunch of generalists, that think they are capable of covering every genre and every sub-genre with their "been playing the NES since I was 4 years old" qualifications. Now, a generation grew up reading reviews like this and thinks that this is how it works: "Great graphics, fun gameplay, immersive story - I like it - 9.7/10". For all the issues that TotalBiscuit has, being a generalist himself, at least he talks about game mechanics.

 

[karnak]

That's why what we need are specialists. It can be a pain to learn all about RPG history if you are a 16-years old kid that plays all AAA releases, but it shouldn't be that hard to be knowledgeable about them if you're a RPG fan in your late 20's - early 30's.

Sadly, once game magazines began to die, specialists vanished and we were left with a bunch of generalists, that think they are capable of covering every genre and every sub-genre with their "been playing the NES since I was 4 years old" qualifications. Now, a generation grew up reading reviews like this and thinks that this is how it works: "Great graphics, fun gameplay, immersive story - I like it - 9.7/10". For all the issues that TotalBiscuit has, being a generalist himself, at least he talks about game mechanics.

I think internet is a bit to blame too, as strange as it may sound.

For thousands of centuries you had to acquire real, hard-gained knowledge to prove you were a scholar. Spend years and years doing stuff and reading books until you thought you figured something.

Nowadays, some snotty kid looks at some youtube videos, checks Wikipedia, reads Mobygames and thinks he's a games expert. And (thanks to the anonimity of the internet) if someone contradicts what he's saying he'll turn into a hate Troll and insult everyone who opposes him.
In the old days, when an imbecile would pretend to be a sage, a real sage would test his wit. If he proved to be a fraud he'd sometimes get a beating and be shamed in public. He'd never try to play the "lore master" ever again.

 

[Grimlorn]

That's why what we need are specialists. It can be a pain to learn all about RPG history if you are a 16-years old kid that plays all AAA releases, but it shouldn't be that hard to be knowledgeable about them if you're a RPG fan in your late 20's - early 30's.

Sadly, once game magazines began to die, specialists vanished and we were left with a bunch of generalists, that think they are capable of covering every genre and every sub-genre with their "been playing the NES since I was 4 years old" qualifications. Now, a generation grew up reading reviews like this and thinks that this is how it works: "Great graphics, fun gameplay, immersive story - I like it - 9.7/10". For all the issues that TotalBiscuit has, being a generalist himself, at least he talks about game mechanics.

You would probably need someone to slog through all the RPGs of old like CRPGaddict does. He's been going through all the RPGs for years now and still isn't close to being done from last I checked. It sounds like something like this would be a fulltime job that someone would have to dedicate a couple of years of their life to. There would be little reward for this though. Maybe you could try to Kickstart it, but not sure you could raise enough money to do something like this unless you were a somewhat well known on Youtube/Twitch. I don't know how much gamers make on Twitch though. Maybe someone could live off the income from it, if enough gamers knew about it.