Why the majority of the codex dont play the true classics?

[Talby]

Behead those who insult the classics.

 

[Cael]

Well, think about it. How many of modern day CRPG players would get past the throne room of The Magic Candle the first time they played the game?

I don't see how that is relevant.
There is something called the internet.

Proof that you have never played the game.

 

[Makabb]

I (Ultima IV-VII; Might and Magic 2; Wizardy 6/7; Wasteland; Darklands; Betrayal at Krondor; Realms of Arkania II; Pools of Darkness; Dungeon Master etc etc)
.

1) Aged poorly
2) They are not that good to begin with


Look at other old classics that are still playable today: Civilization 1, Pirates, Xwing, Tie Fighter, Secret of Monkey Island to name a few

 

[thesheeep]

Well, think about it. How many of modern day CRPG players would get past the throne room of The Magic Candle the first time they played the game?

I don't see how that is relevant.
There is something called the internet.

Proof that you have never played the game.

Got me there

Either way, what I mean is that solving a puzzle is simply not a problem anymore today and thus no reason not to play any old game.

I hate puzzles with a passion and yet I played a great deal of games that have some of the most annoyingly arbitrary ones.
I love more in-depth, complicated rules, combat and character development. But puzzles? Bah, I tolerate them to get to the good bits, but that's about it.

 

[Cael]

Well, think about it. How many of modern day CRPG players would get past the throne room of The Magic Candle the first time they played the game?

I don't see how that is relevant.
There is something called the internet.

Proof that you have never played the game.

Got me there

Either way, what I mean is that solving a puzzle is simply not a problem anymore today and thus no reason not to play any old game.

I hate puzzles with a passion and yet I played a great deal of games that have some of the most annoyingly arbitrary ones.
I love more in-depth, complicated rules, combat and character development. But puzzles? Bah, I tolerate them to get to the good bits, but that's about it.

It is not a puzzle.

Spoiler

It is basically the King asking if you accept the quest. If you say "No", the game basically gives you a non-standard Game Over and sends you back to the main menu. It is the first 5 seconds of the game.

 

[fantadomat]

Well, think about it. How many of modern day CRPG players would get past the throne room of The Magic Candle the first time they played the game?

I don't see how that is relevant.
There is something called the internet.

Proof that you have never played the game.

Got me there

Either way, what I mean is that solving a puzzle is simply not a problem anymore today and thus no reason not to play any old game.

I hate puzzles with a passion and yet I played a great deal of games that have some of the most annoyingly arbitrary ones.
I love more in-depth, complicated rules, combat and character development. But puzzles? Bah, I tolerate them to get to the good bits, but that's about it.

It is not a puzzle.

Spoiler

It is basically the King asking if you accept the quest. If you say "No", the game basically gives you a non-standard Game Over and sends you back to the main menu. It is the first 5 seconds of the game.

'

 

[Cael]

'

It was supposed to be a comment on the obstinate stupidity of modern day CRPG players

But when sheepie put his foot in it, how could I resist? *Muttley snicker*

 

[Parabalus]

The older games tend to be much longer, I think W7 is something to the tune of >100h while Wiz8 is a third of that, similarly for the M&Ms.

It's a much bigger commitment, if you are replaying you can just drop in and out when you're in the mood, but if you try to play one of those older games for the first time you need to remain focused much longer, maybe for months depending on your free time - you'll likely want to drop it for something else in the meantime.

I will admit that playing old games is difficult for me. For instance I saw Darklands being mentioned. When I hear people talk about Darklands it sounds so awesome, but when I tried to play it I found the presentation to be impenetrable. To the point where in combat I couldn't even tell what my characters were doing.

I don't think it's because the game is bad. I am just not old enough to have played a game from 1992 in its prime and proper context, so it creates a translation issue, like reading Shakespeare. You have to be willing to spend time "learning the language" to enjoy it, and to be honest more often than not I just can't be bothered with it.

It's mostly the case of what you played first, it's harder to jump into those old UIs if you didn't have to do it when it was the only thing available. Despite all the railing about streamlining games used to feel way clunkier.

 

[Bladeract]

Proof that you have never played the game.

I completed MC but don't remember what you are talking about.

To be fair back then I got stuck in quite a few games. I remember in Dragon Wars I was stuck outside of the dwarf forge about halfway through the game and eventually gave up. Did not get past it until I started a new game a couple years later.

 

[FeelTheRads]

"Old game had horrible UIs hurrr" meme used en masse just confirms that many people participate in the discussion without having relevant first-hand experience. Pretty much all best-selling rpgs from the last decade have UIs straight from hell, especially if you are a PC user. If you can stomach F3(NV)/F4 UI, for example, without turning suicidal then you should be more than fine with vast majority of games from the nineties at least. In fact, if you are an actual PC gamer familiar with terms like "hotkeys" and "functional brain" then you will find many of them pleasantly inclined compared to modernity.

Nope.

F3/F4 UI looks like it's sent from heaven when you compare it to older games. For example, in Might & Magic 6 you have to do a lot to just have a proper mouse control with WASD. Then in combat to cast any spell apart from autocast you have to open spellbook, open the needed page and only there select a spell, and combat happens either in realtime or dozens of turns. In older Avernum/Geneforge games you have to use whole keyboard for effective control, same for older roguelikes like Nethack or Angband. I played a lot of this but it's beyond my comprehension why do you need different commands for wearing something, putting on rings and wielding a weapon - even if there are items that you can use in a variety of ways you still have to have default "equip" button for those things.

Console games certainly aged better. If I were to play older Wizardry today I'd use SNES version or something like that probably. Also those older games weren't that complex for variety of reasons. Even something tactical like Angband becomes a chore. Even games that I enjoyed back in the day infuriate me today with their UI and lack of complexity. And balance

, of course: it seems most of those games longevity comes from realizing how the game systems misrepresent what character/party you really need. Hence all those guides that explain what party you'd use if you played the game for 10 hours discovering you made wrong answers for initial question.

What a bunch of retarded shit.

F3 or NV or Skyrim or similar console-infested garbage is just that: garbage. If you think that's a good interface you are clearly retarded.

Use the WHOLE keyboard in Avernum and Geneforge? What the fuck? I pretty much used it for quick save/quick load. FFS, in Geneforge you can get to any spell or option or whatever in like 2 clicks.
In fucking NV you have to switch between several tabs and scroll a couple of screens just to be able to look at your stats and adjust your inventory. Absolute garbage.

And including rogue-likes in this discussion is similarly retarded.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

The term classic usually refers to things that are extremely old. There are no computer games that are extremely old. Computer games are also technology driven & technological improvements do indeed change one's perspective on preference, for example, in terms of cars, I couldn't go back to driving a car without power steering or without parking censors and even if someone offered me a cheap E-Type Jaguar I'd probably still prefer to buy a newer model with the money, especially as repairs and unreliability become more apparent with each passing year with all technological products.

I'm not averse to trying out some old classics (jeezus, 15 years is classic in gaming terminology, how fucked up is that!), or, as per the thread, really old classics (LOL) of less than half a lifetime past, but time is doing nothing but adding more and more games to the cannon. At some point gaming will have the same problem movies have, in that even the most dedicated expert still wont have time to see everything. You can select some stand-outs, the Citizen Kanes, the Battleship Potempkins, but that doesn't mean your really into that era of film-making. If you grew up watching all those oldies as they came out in the cinema then you're good, you've kept up, but someone starting now? That backlog of 'classics' is getting longer and longer every single year, to the point where if one did dedicate oneself to getting properly into all those oldies then all one is doing is creating another gap in their exp, the current and now era.

So, for me, it's all very hotchpotch. I don't declare a dedication to one specific era, I don't champion or disdain one specific era. I view them all as equally available games, all competing for my attention equally. If a game finds itself on my computer then it just got lucky for being in the right place at the right time right when I fancied playing whatever it is. Sometimes the desire for a classic just arrives unexpectedly, just like the sudden desire to watch an old silent movie can suddenly arrive, and in such cases its nice to know they are there and available. But dedicating myself to a specific era of gaming? Never have, never will.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

The term classic usually refers to things that are extremely old.

There you go. This is your problem. Classic is not something that is old. It * can* be old of course. Classic is something which is held as a standard of quality one can compare to.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

The term classic usually refers to things that are extremely old.

There you go. This is your problem. Classic is not something that is old. It * can* be old of course. Classic is something which is held as a standard of quality one can compare to.

Well in that case I play the classics all the time, as do most people on this site...

/thread.

 

[Cael]

Proof that you have never played the game.

I completed MC but don't remember what you are talking about.

To be fair back then I got stuck in quite a few games. I remember in Dragon Wars I was stuck outside of the dwarf forge about halfway through the game and eventually gave up. Did not get past it until I started a new game a couple years later.

Spoiler

At the 37 second mark. Answer "No" to that question and that's the end of your first TMC game.

 

[Mustawd]

The older games tend to be much longer, I think

This is actually the opposite. The Wizardries you mention are an exception. Most of the classics are ~20-40 hrs.

For me, I’m still making my way through my backlog, which also includes indies based on some of the classics.

EDIT: I’ll also echo what others have said about the interface of pre FO1 games. Having no mouse cursor can be a pain. Also RTFM is a pain. When I have 1-1.5 hours to play a game I don’t want to waste the first two sessions wrestling with the UI/RTFM.

EDIT2: That being said, complaining there are no good games and then ignoring the classics is p. dumb. I still plan on playing all the Wizardries (except 4), M&Ms and Goldbox games (i’ve only played 2).

 

[J_C]

I couldn't go back to driving a car without... parking censors

Parking sensors are for pussies. Just sayin'.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I couldn't go back to driving a car without... parking censors

Parking sensors are for pussies. Just sayin'.

Fk'in wing mirrors n' windscreen wipers n' indicators. Back in MY day you had to turn round to see what was behind you, lean out the window and wipe that shit off the screen & stick your arm out if you wanted to turn a corner. Aye, them were the days. The days when drivers were REAL MEN.

 

[J_C]

I couldn't go back to driving a car without... parking censors

Parking sensors are for pussies. Just sayin'.

Fk'in wing mirrors n' windscreen wipers n' indicators. Back in MY day you had to turn round to see what was behind you, lean out the window and wipe that shit off the screen & stick your arm out if you wanted to turn a corner. Aye, them were the days. The days when drivers were REAL MEN.

That's what I'm talking about. :D

 

[fantadomat]

I couldn't go back to driving a car without... parking censors

Parking sensors are for pussies. Just sayin'.

What is "parking sensors",the side mirrors?

 

[Mustawd]

I couldn't go back to driving a car without... parking censors

Parking sensors are for pussies. Just sayin'.

What is "parking sensors",the side mirrors?

In first world countries cars now have cameras as well as sensors that will beep faster and faster as you get closer to an object.

Bulgaria will have those in like 15 years, so just wait bro.

 

[fantadomat]

I couldn't go back to driving a car without... parking censors

Parking sensors are for pussies. Just sayin'.

What is "parking sensors",the side mirrors?

In first world countries cars now have cameras as well as sensors that will beep faster and faster as you get closer to an object.

Bulgaria will have those in like 15 years, so just wait bro.

Oh we have that shit,we normally disable them because it is annoying how it beeps,same as the belt alarm. Yeah modern cars a death machines that promote stupidity in young people.

 

[Alkarl]

The great thing about a lot of these older classics is that sometimes you'd walk into a bare ass room and the game will tell you about all the things that would be in it if graphics were more permissive at the time.

Early crpgs like Wizardry, Might & Magic, Goldbox D&D games, the beautiful thing about these games graphical simplicity is they almost make a sort of mental connection with their users. You could even argue that it is not you playing the game, but the game that is playing you. It gives you just enough external stimuli to allow you to simulate the rest in your imagination.

Early vidya games got it, the truth in the medium is what you could imagine, not what you can do. You could play a modern game with hd textures and dazzling environs and feel so.. empty and bored. All of a sudden, things that never mattered before matter. For instance, what your armor looks like. What kind of doofy expression your custom char is gonna make in a cutscene. The list goes on. All of a sudden you are no longer constrained by the limits of your imagination but by actual, physical pixels on a screen. And it makes the game feel like, well, a game. Instead of being alive in a world of possibility, you are now constrained by a checklist and what color shirt tou're wearing. You get 15 different slider options, but no matter what, you're face is still going to look derpy and your hair like a plastic helmet.

It's really funny though, to hear these older dev guys come out to say that Skyrim, or Dragon Age is what they would have made all those years ago if they just had the tech and resources. Could you imagine living in a world where Skyrim was the first "crpg"? It's sort of the world a newfag like myself inhabits, as if going backwards felt more like going forwards.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

There's a certain amount of "chopsticks elitism" here where just because something is old doesn't mean it's good or better. We don't still shit in outhouses when we have indoor plumbing, why use chopsticks when forks are available?

I completed Wasteland a few years ago and it was a complete waste of time I only went through because I didn't have anything particularly better to do.

I agree with this statement. Wasteland and Wizardry 6 were only fun for me in the way that visiting an old farmhouse museum is "fun." In fact I would call Wizardry 6 shitting-in-an-outhouse level of fun.

Then again, when I played Magic Candle 1&2 and Darklands this past year I quite enjoyed them; the MC games especially blew me away with their depth and detail, and I wish I had known about them back in the day. I agree that graphics and UI aren't really an excuse. The worst I ever recall was re-arranging my desk in order to move my keyboard to play Dungeon Master 2. Stupid arrow keys + mouse.

I think we are underestimating all the hurdles to old school gaming. Computers back in the day were not cheap and not primarily used for gaming. The concept of buying multiple machines to cover different platforms was also almost unheard of. Buying upgrade cards and expanding memory was only for the hardest of hardcore. If you were a kid you were limited to whatever your parents could/would buy; typically between birthday/christmas and allowances you could only play a couple of games a year. Without internet your only way of even knowing what games were out was to buy a magazine subscription, which cost more money, or go to the store and look at what they had. If something was out of stock or out of print, too bad. Getting games to run was a challenge in itself. You needed to do all sorts of memory manager and driver shenanigans just to play many games. You never knew if your sound card or mouse drivers would work right.

When the internet became more available you could find more games than you would have otherwise but there were still plenty of challenges. 56k modems could not download large games, anything on a CD was out. Playing older titles without the manual made them completely inscrutable; if they had copy protection, unplayable. Even if you could find the manual you had to print it out because there was no alt-tabbing from DOS back to windows. The memory management problems still existed plus you had CPU speed problems, and games would run unplayably fast.

Most of these problems became insurmountable for long enough that almost no one would bother playing older games anymore, and it's hard to blame them. Eventually we got the DOS box emulator which helped immensely, though it still takes time to iron out the speed, graphics, and sound issues, you have to monkey around with the settings. DOSbox has never been particularly user-friendly, plus you needed a computer that could run the emulator well enough. Then you still typically have the copy protection and lack of manual problems; those have only recently been solved through ubiquitous document scanning (once a very pricey item), internet archiving websites and a general tolerance of piracy that's too old to matter (abandonware). Good Old Games has also been a godsend of course, and can probably be credited with reviving much interest in the classics simply by packaging the games in a nice, convenient installer that sets up DOSbox for you, and those great manual scans, code wheel scans, hintbooks, etc.

The issue still exists of just finding out about these games. As a lifelong RPG fan I'm still learning about games I never even knew existed before, thanks in large part to fan websites like the Codex here. So maybe we should help people to discover these great old classics rather than playing the shaming elitist chopstick game? I'm thinking of playing Disciples of Steel or Aethra's Chronicles next.

 

[octavius]

I'm thinking of playing Disciples of Steel or Aethra's Chronicles next.

Excellent choices.
Some of the very best obscure CRPGs.

 

[Mustawd]

There's a certain amount of "chopsticks elitism" here where just because something is old doesn't mean it's good or better. We don't still shit in outhouses when we have indoor plumbing, why use chopsticks when forks are available?

I gotta quibble on this. People in Asian cultures still use chopsticks when eating, so naturally the restaurants have chopsticks as well. It's not like I'm going to Golden Corral and bringing my own chopsticks. Also, eating sushi with a fork is actually harder than using chopsticks.