Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

Time-waster mini-games in RPGs have been known to really take off, though. Some of the most popular ones are card games, like Triple Triad from FF8, Caravan from New Vegas and of course Gwent from Witcher 3. Being card games, they're all turn-based, which may explain why Obsidian were comfortable making the ship combat turn-based as well. In the end, it's simply a kind of game of cards.

 

[Lacrymas]

None of those impeded your normal gameplay and they were fundamentally optional. They also weren't promoted to exhaustion to appeal to normies. They don't want it to be "more of the same sequel" (your words), yet they made it a direct sequel, making up countless contrivances to have the same protagonist from the first one. That doesn't seem contradictory to you? The AA devs' insistence on marketing it towards normies, and they know exactly that that is what they are doing, is starting to piss me off a little bit, one of the reasons being that it poisons the overall design of the game to a detrimental effect for everyone.

 

[Grunker]

Time-waster mini-games in RPGs have been known to really take off, though. Some of the most popular ones are card games, like Triple Triad from FF8, Caravan from New Vegas and of course Gwent from Witcher 3. Being card games, they're all turn-based, which may explain why Obsidian were comfortable making the ship combat turn-based as well. In the end, it's simply a kind of game of cards.

Talking about this without mentioning THE KING: Arcomage

 

[frajaq]

So did they only show ship combat on the stream or some actual exploration?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But it's the idea of them that matters. I was responding to your post about how they're spending a lot of time promoting the ships. I think it's a smart thing to do because it's a thing that sets the game apart and makes it less of a "more of the same" sequel, to use the term from Vault Dweller's editorial.

It should be more of the same, but better. That's why it's a sequel and not a different game. Did someone complain that BG2 is "more of the same"? They've changed the combat system somewhat, so emphasize that if you want to point out how "different" it is. If you are even a little bit gaming savvy you'll immediately recognize the ship combat for the throwaway time-waster mini-game that it truly is. And even if you aren't, it's blatantly obvious that it won't appeal to normies, if it will appeal to anyone at all in this context.

Ha! I was about to respond to your initial post—the inevitable “that’s a mighty big of”—and then you caveated it with that last line.

It is really puzzling that this is what they’re choosing to promote right here. Presumably they have some market research telling them the CYOA style ship to ship fights make sense. Or maybe Sawyer’s just forgotten that he’s a much bigger dweeb than his target audience.

I hope they did a lot of thinking about why BG2 was so much better than its predecessor. Throwing all of that side content in your face practically from the getgo and then giving you a good in-game reason to go sidequesting was absolutely brilliant. Fingers crossed that Josh is taking his cue to from the right places.

Time-waster mini-games in RPGs have been known to really take off, though. Some of the most popular ones are card games, like Triple Triad from FF8, Caravan from New Vegas and of course Gwent from Witcher 3. Being card games, they're all turn-based, which may explain why Obsidian were comfortable making the ship combat turn-based as well. In the end, it's simply a kind of game of cards.

But most minigames look more like games and less like books. Card games, in particular, have cards! Gwent is full of pretty pictures. In Deadfire, the ship fights are made to look like you’re reading them in a book, which doesn’t strike me as super appealing to casuals. Don’t get me wrong, I think this is one of the few minigame type things that I’ll genuinely enjoy, but I’m not the kind of guy they need to target—I’ll buy anything made by Obsidian the day it comes out (well, not Dungeon Siege 3, although I’m open to persuasion). A lot of normals will probably object to the amount of text in Deadfire already and making them read something that looks like a book for ship fights may not be the best idea.

At the very least, they should probably be spending more time promoting the parts of the game with pretty pictures.

 

[Grotesque]

None of those impeded your normal gameplay

So what inside information you have that led you to conclude that ship combat will impede with your normal gameplay?

 

[Lacrymas]

So what inside information you have that led you to conclude that ship combat will impede with your normal gameplay?

It's not insider information. You can't explore normally if don't continuously buy supplies every time you dock, that in of itself has to raise huge red flags. They've also said it's "optional" in big quotation marks. Why are you people so naive?

Kyl Von Kull, the problem is that it's obviously boring with nothing going for it, while also being unable to not engage with it because you'll still have to buy supplies, and the way they've talked about it seems like they are going force us to play it sometimes. It probably will gate powerful items as well. In that context, it will only "appeal" to people with mental disorders like OCD or Asperger's, not dweebs. You say that you are probably going to enjoy it, but wait until you've done it a couple of times.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Kyl Von Kull, the problem is that it's obviously boring with nothing going for it, while also being unable to not engage with it because you'll still have to buy supplies and the way they've talked about it seems like they are going force us to play it sometimes. It will only "appeal" to people with mental disorders like OCD or Asperger's.

Then at least it should be popular with a very large subset of the Codex. Maybe Josh knows his aspy audience better than you think.

I wouldn’t be too surprised if Sawyer lets you run from every ship fight, though. That’s what I think when I hear optional.

And I don’t see why buying supplies should be a red flag. The morale mechanic seems more ominous. But I think a little realism won’t hurt. I can only hope that you’ll be allowed to choose between rum, sodomy and the lash to boost shipboard morale.

 

[Sizzle]

None of those impeded your normal gameplay and they were fundamentally optional.

It's been stated several times that it will be optional. If you don't want to have naval combat - you don't have to. You can flee, fly false colors, etc. Some ships - like pirates and rival factions - should attack you, it makes the world more alive, and gives consequences to your actions. So why is this a problem?

They also weren't promoted to exhaustion to appeal to normies.

It's about the only element (apart from the faction C&C, but that can hardly be shown without spoilers) that's completely different than what we can find in the IE games.

The first game was promoted almost exclusively as a spiritual sequel - old, but also new. For this one, it seems they are going with the "evolution" of IE-likes angle. Which makes sense, marketing-wise.

They don't want it to be "more of the same sequel" (your words), yet they made it a direct sequel, making up countless contrivances to have the same protagonist from the first one.

Which countless contrivances? A god from the first game, who was heavily implied not be dead, came back, wrecked shit, and now you have to go after him. It sounds like a better plot hook than Thaos.

Going by that logic, would you also say that BG2 starts with countless contrivances: "Some nameless Mage you never before heard of captures you and your whole party off-camera, and you have to chase after him, even if you don't give a shit about him or Imoen, and would rather prance about Athkatla."

 

[Maculo]

Sooo casters are even worst than in PoE? I am replaying PoE now and feel like my casters are pretty useless and i use only spells that stun enemy in any way possible. Damage spells are garbage and buffs are useless outside of boss battles. The most useful thing for my wizard was the splash damage when using sceptres and wands with some elemental damage.
All my prayers are about the story,as a storyfag i don't care much if the combat is total garbage.But i do like it when the combat is good too.

PoE1 casters could get ridiculous. For example, Priests could (still can?) stack Shining Beacon for a lot of damage. Cleansing Flame sped up damage over time effects, which could be used to great effect on envenomed strike. Finally, with Avatar and might buffs, you could reach 38-40+ Might, and spam shining beacon, holy storm, sparks of the soul of the righteous, and cleansing flame. With the exception of some fights in the White Might, a Priest can win most encounters and that is not to mention Priest spell immunities.

I also would recommend Wizard built around summoned weapons. Once you obtain Citzal's Lance, you can do a great amount of damage. Citzal's Lance gives carnage (AoE melee). In addition, the Wizard has a multitude of buffs and defensive spells (arcane veil, etc). In my opinion, a Wizard is a better Barbarian, with the option to cast spells at range. The only downside is the need to rest.

In the beta, Casters are much weaker for a variety of reasons. Casters do not automatically get all the spells, the cast times are longer, and the spell effects are meager compared to the time spent. Furthermore, I have seen characters lose a charge or cast of a spell entirely because it was interrupted (i.e., casted fireball, enemy interrupts, game treats it as if I did finish the cast and I lost the per cast resource). It does not help that some enemy AI will target casters. Granted, we have only seen early to mid range levels. If you went by PoE1 beta (also limited level range) impressions for Priest, the class was okay, but I do think many saw the late game bullshit the class could do.

 

[Lacrymas]

No, most of the Codex aren't autistic. Not to mention that people with those disorders don't enjoy doing their rituals, quite the contrary. Buying supplies is a red flag because it adds unnecessary tedious and repetitive micromanagement every time you dock.

Sizzle, yes, BG2's opening is contrived, lol, but that's not the point. Not as much as in PoE because the protagonist's story wasn't finished in BG1, but whatever. The whole Eothas returned in the statue destroying Caed Nua, sucking your soul and reverting you to level 1, is all to feed into it being the same protagonist, rather than a natural continuation of PoE1. It has been stated it's "optional", quotation marks theirs. Adding mini-games isn't evolution, it's the thing you do when you don't know how to evolve an idea.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

No, most of the Codex aren't autistic. Not to mention that people with those disorders don't enjoy doing their rituals, quite the contrary.

Not to derail, but while the ritual thing being an awful experience is true of OCD, it’s deeply comforting for most people on the spectrum. I say this as someone who grew up around more than one aspy family member (I’ve even dated that rarest of creatures, the aspy female). I wish they hadn’t reclassified asperger’s into part of a broader autism spectrum, if only because people now take more umbrage.

Still, there are tons of people on the spectrum here, or at least people who are borderline aspy—the ones who are likely to have aspy children because there’s a strong genetic component but it’s hard to reproduce if you have all of the social symptoms. This kind of forum naturally attracts those of us with even a smidgen of little professor syndrome.

 

[Lacrymas]

I think this is one of the few minigame type things that I’ll genuinely enjoy

In that context, it will only "appeal" to people with mental disorders like OCD or Asperger's

This kind of forum naturally attracts those of us with even a smidgen of little professor syndrome.

Yeah. Also, some of those rituals being comforting isn't a good thing, some OCD sufferers bleach their hands or want to take the hair out of the shower drains of other people, getting frustrated in the process and then feeling terrible and disgusted with themselves, even if it comforts them for a moment, but that's off-topic.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Yeah. Also, some of those rituals being comforting isn't a good thing, some OCD sufferers bleach their hands or want to take the hair out of the shower drains of other people, getting frustrated in the process and then feeling terrible and disgusted with themselves, even if it comforts them for a moment, but that's off-topic.

Fortunately there’s medicine that works for OCD. I was saying ritual is comforting for people on the autism spectrum; for OCD it is emphatically not—no one likes losing control of their mind/body.

I prefer to think of myself as kind of a carrier for the aspy stuff. More a mood disorder guy, really. But I don’t think it’s crazy that a web forum for the aspiest genre of an aspy medium would have a high proportion of people on the spectrum.

End digression.

 

[Lacrymas]

i.e., casted fireball, enemy interrupts, game treats it as if I did finish the cast and I lost the per cast resource

That's intentional. Or at least it was before they decided to remove it and remove the lost per encounter slot for moving while casting the spell, i.e. decline. I won't comment on how well they understand their own system until the next backer beta patch, since they said they've changed a lot of things, but we'll see.

 

[Sizzle]

Buying supplies is a red flag because it adds unnecessary tedious and repetitive micromanagement every time you dock.

Why are you assuming that we'll be forced to buy supplies every time we dock? Buy a shitload of tack (or whatever that cheapest foodstuff is called) from time to time and go sailing. The food mechanics for the ship will probably matter only if you plan on getting into a lot of fights.

Not as much as in PoE because the protagonist's story wasn't finished in BG1, but whatever.

A standard plot hook for the sequel. Just like PoE, the BG saga could have ended right there and it would have made no difference.

The whole Eothas returned in the statue destroying Caed Nua, sucking your soul and reverting you to level 1, is all to feed into it being the same protagonist, rather than a natural continuation of PoE1.

And what would have been a natural continuation of PoE1? Apart from being Lvl 16 at the start of PoE2, that is.

It has been stated it's "optional", quotation marks theirs.

I still think you're reading way too much into that, but you are fond of doing that :D

Adding mini-games isn't evolution, it's the thing you do when you don't know how to evolve an idea.

Sailing as a game mechanic is something that's never been a part of the IE games. Just by existing in PoE2 - it's already an evolution of them. Whether it will be a good one remains to be seen, however.

 

[Lacrymas]

We'll see how disruptive the ship management will be. BG had the unanswered question of what you are going to do now that you know you are a Bhaalspawn (I wouldn't have written in Irenicus at all, though, but that's neither here nor there). It was a natural plot hook which doesn't exist in PoE1, which answers your next question - there is no natural continuation of PoE1, the story is finished. I'm not the only one to point out that it's pointless for it to be a direct sequel and they are only doing it to "be like" BG2 or some other ulterior motive. Bolting on additional elements that don't have anything to do with the gameplay proper is not evolution, it's adding stuff on top. Evolution was some good design decisions in PoE1 regarding the combat, not Caed Nua.

 

[Grunker]

Irenicus was the strongest part of the entire saga's narrative. He's way more interesting and empathetic than the Bhaalspawn or any other character for that matter

 

[Lacrymas]

Oh, yes, a guy who wants to literally become a god because power is very interesting, "relatable" and not Dark Lord-like at all. If he's the most interesting part of the narrative, we have bigger problems. I've never been a fan of BG2's writing, but I don't want to go into that. He's too popular and will only incite a pointless flame war.

 

[Grunker]

If he's the most interesting part of the narrative, we have bigger problems

We do. Narrative is not the strong suit of the BGs. The first has the perfect, non-intrusive D&D adventure setup and the second ramps it up with a lot of Godhood stuff. But that's pretty much it, the games have little ambition beyond just telling a stock fantasy story to a fine C+ entertainment score.

Relative to that, Irenicus' split between power-hunger and Community-member in Good Standing with Beloved Wife is positively grounded. There's also a lot of environmental story-telling going on. His Dungeon gets a lot of (deserved) hate for its gameplay purpose, but narratively it's pretty brilliant compared to most things in the BGs. Ellisime's Room is some good shit.

Plus, 90% of what makes the character is Warren's delivery, which is just so. damned. tasty <3

He's too popular and will only incite a pointless flame war.

Not gonna see one from me. In vidya games you gotta take what you can get, writing-wise. Compared to other mediums, Irenicus is a banal throw-away, compared to vidya games and especially in the context of the BGs, he's fantastic.

(Again, the delivery is the exception - it shines on a comparative level as well, I think.)

EDIT: apologize for the many edits, only got a ThinkPad touchscreen to work with currently

 

[Maculo]

I am trying to think what other games had dialogue saved by the delivery. Vampires the Masquerade Bloodlines?

 

[Lacrymas]

While I like the Greek tragedy-like set-up of Irenicus, him falling from grace due to his own hubris or ambition, it kind of goes nowhere. He's also not the protagonist, which kind of inverts the whole Greek tragedy thing, but doesn't fill in the holes left by the inversion. Him and the actual protagonist aren't character foils for each other, he's played as a straight-up Saturday morning cartoon villain after the novelty of his lost love for Ellesime wears off. KotOR2 is vastly superior in this regard, Kreia and the Exile complementing and relying on each other narrative-wise. I'm still amazed to this day how that game managed to do everything it did in terms of story.

 

[Sizzle]

BG had the unanswered question of what you are going to do now that you know you are a Bhaalspawn

And it turned out you did exactly the same thing as in BG1 - kill shit, but on a grander scale :D

The same case can be made for PoE2 - What are you going to do now that you've got control over your Watcher powers?

It was a natural plot hook which doesn't exist in PoE1, which answers your next question - there is no natural continuation of PoE1, the story is finished.

And the story continues. A time-honored RPG tradition.

Few RPGs knew where they were going with the sequel (or if there was even going to be one), just that they'd like to make it, given the chance.

I'm not the only one to point out that it's pointless for it to be a direct sequel and they are only doing it to "be like" BG2 or some other ulterior motive.

The odds of them ditching the entire Watcher aspect from the sequel was low, so what would have been the alternative - to play as a different Watcher? That seems even more hamfisted.

Bolting on additional elements that don't have anything to do with the gameplay proper is not evolution, it's adding stuff on top.

Naval combat has nothing to do with a game set in a pirate-infested tropical archipelago, which you navigate by boat? Really?

Evolution was some good design decisions in PoE1 regarding the combat, not Caed Nua.

Caed Nua was an ill-advised Stretchgoal promise. It sucks, but at least we got a good quest and some nicely written low-level DnD-inspired adventures out of it (in v3.0, alas).

 

[Lacrymas]

Writing wasn't handled well in BG2, I think we covered that already. I have very carefully worded that the ship combat doesn't have anything to do with the gameplay every time I mention that. Yes, ditch the Watcher, I've mentioned several times that it only brings vaguely defined problem-solving powers to the table. "The story will continue" is too broad/general/vague and doesn't count as a sequel hook, obviously.

 

[Grunker]

While I like the Greek tragedy-like set-up of Irenicus, him falling from grace due to his own hubris or ambition, it kind of goes nowhere. He's also not the protagonist, which kind of inverts the whole Greek tragedy thing, but doesn't fill in the holes left by the inversion. Him and the actual protagonist aren't character foils for each other, he's played as a straight-up Saturday morning cartoon villain after the novelty of his lost love for Ellesime wears off. KotOR2 is vastly superior in this regard, Kreia and the Exile complementing and relying on each other narrative-wise. I'm still amazed to this day how that game managed to do everything it did in terms of story.

See my edits, was trying to work with a fiddly touchscreen thingy. Anyways I agree with most of what you say on an absolute level except I don't think the novelty of the Ellesime-love wears off, rather, I think it's only utilized well in the beginning and end of the game rather than as a thorough theme, though again, even this basic stuff makes it better than 99% of what we have.