Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

[RaggleFraggle]

Not to mention every Codex starting "40K IS ABOUT YOUR DUDES AND YOUR IMAGINATINO MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE SO HAVE FUN"

I said fandoms don’t work that way. The author’s intent isn’t relevant. The way fandoms work is that they’re religions constructed by fans that use the source texts as holy books and adhere to community-constructed notions of canon. If there’s a mismatch between the fandom and the source texts, or between the fandom and individual fans with misgivings, then you get religious schisms and edition wars.

Just because GW is too lazy and profit-driven to have a canon policy doesn’t make these problems go away. Telling a dissatisfied fan that he can just pretend that huge swathes of the source texts and the orthodox fandom interpretations doesn’t exist isn’t good advice or any kind of solution.

“It’s about your guys—“ You mean OCs? When was the last time you met a 40k fan who wrote OC fanfic?

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Not to mention every Codex starting "40K IS ABOUT YOUR DUDES AND YOUR IMAGINATINO MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE SO HAVE FUN"

They say that whilst shitting out telenovela for coomers.

 

[Mangoose]

Not to mention every Codex starting "40K IS ABOUT YOUR DUDES AND YOUR IMAGINATINO MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE SO HAVE FUN"

The way fandoms work is that they’re religions constructed by fans that use the source texts as holy books and adhere to community-constructed notions of canon.

40k fandom happily uses house rules instead of holy books for miniature gaming.

then you get religious schisms and edition wars.

Like Star Wars vs. Star Trek.

This happens because you take something silly and take it seriously, which inevitably leads to being upset.

Especially given that they made Tomb Kings, Primaris... for profits. They dumped 50 Horus Heresy novels to exploit brand loyalty from customers.

You know very well that GW is all about $$$. Expecting charitable or sincere quality from them is cognitive dissonance.

“It’s about your guys—“ You mean OCs? When was the last time you met a 40k fan who wrote OC fanfic?

When they painted their army.

Not to mention every Codex starting "40K IS ABOUT YOUR DUDES AND YOUR IMAGINATINO MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE SO HAVE FUN"

They say that whilst shitting out telenovela for coomers.

Which you can override.

I have read about 1/3~1/4 of the Horus Heresy books.

That means I am ignorant of 2/3~3/4 of Horus Heresy canon. If I want to fill in the blanks, I fill in the blanks myself, not buy more books and shell out $$$$$$$$$ to GW just so I know what lore to complain about.

Try not removing from inventory for once. It's much less upsetting when you aren't paying for the bullshit.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

 

[Mangoose]

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

Smart thing to do, yes.

Or if you can stomach it, you can pick and choose which games to play. That's usually what I do, as I assume that in any context there is a majority of shit, which includes 40k.

DOW3 can kill itself for being a MOBA, for example.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

Smart thing to do, yes.

Or if you can stomach it, you can pick and choose which games to play. That's usually what I do, as I assume that in any context there is a majority of shit, which includes 40k.

DOW3 can kill itself for being a MOBA, for example.

There’s nothing worth playing anywhere

 

[Mangoose]

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

Smart thing to do, yes.

Or if you can stomach it, you can pick and choose which games to play. That's usually what I do, as I assume that in any context there is a majority of shit, which includes 40k.

DOW3 can kill itself for being a MOBA, for example.

There’s nothing worth playing anywhere

Hmm ideas:

Sanctus Reach
90s Chaos Gate

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Again, I’m not interested in 40k anymore. Especially not 40k. I absolutely despise the Imperium aesthetically and 99% of 40k has long since degenerated into ultrasmurf jerkoff sessions. Blegh

Please make new IPs rather than repackaging the same shit from three or five decades ago. I’m drowning in a wasteland of creative stagnation

 

[Louis_Cypher]

The aesthetics of 40K, plus how they have changed across editions, might be a topic worth diving into.

The above model is undeniably cool. People want to dial the Cathedral quotient up to 11 understandably, have monumental statues everywhere, but like I said previously, perhaps many structures could contain more utilitarian or 20th century totalitarian type military elements, in line with the Imperium being a futuristic state, not just a medievalist one. Perhaps these sorts of gothic elements would be more 'flourishes', specific acts of artisinal devotion, rather than always present?

Playing some 40K games recently: A lot of the 40K video games have a tendency to employ the "gothic arch" everywhere, even for things like mass produced automatic metal doors (say the Forges in "Space Marine" or "Boltgun"). The Mechanicum or Ecclisiarchy might indeed be fanatical enough to deliberatly design things along these lines, but it did result in almost every door in the game looking cookiee cutter.

Perhaps just a bit more variety, or brighter colours occasionally, would go a long way toward freshening the standard 40K aesthetic, as second edition was brighter. Second edition had a lot more sci-fi or WW2 aesthetics, like striped hazard paint, unadorned bunkers, etc, as mentioned previously in this thread. Even for the gothic elements, as nice as they are to see, perhaps a fuller historical and architectural understanding of what these elements were actually originally for, would help games designers or scenery crafters in their placement. Often when things start to feel wrong, it's because their reason has been clouded; everything in a Cathedral had a specific purpose.

Maybe things should be more artisinal, so that they were the craftsmanship of a particular repair. So perhaps pnuematic doors should be unadorned sci-fi blast doors, but occasionally, one has been replaced with a lavish stone-carved gothic arch, where the mechanism failed centuries ago?

 

[Storyfag]

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

We would rather you did this too, believe you me.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

We would rather you did this too, believe you me.

If you don’t want to hear people complain, then don’t go online. If you want a toxically positive echo chamber, then this isn’t the venue for you.

I spent hundreds of monies on tyranid miniatures back in the day. You know what my reward was? A paragraph in a codex telling me how death leaper was a master of espionage that could bring worlds to their knees. Not a short story showing this, but a paragraph telling me the skeleton of a hypothetical short story. It’s so… lazy.

Starcraft is garbage writing, but in terms of prose fiction they’ve given more attention to the zerg than GW has ever given the tyranids. It’s still idiotic nonsense like “an ultralisk gets infected with alien pollen that makes people worship it” and “an overlord seeks revenge on a marine for killing its mate”, but that’s more than I can say for the tyranids.

You wanna suck ultrasmurf dick? Fine. I don’t. I haven’t give GW a cent in years and I never intend to. I’ll continue to treasure the pleasant feelings I had back in the day, but I’m not gonna pretend I’ll ever feel that way again.

 

[Mangoose]

=

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

We would rather you did this too, believe you me.

If you don’t want to hear people complain, then don’t go online. If you want a toxically positive echo chamber, then this isn’t the venue for you.

On my part I'm sincere. Don't waste your time and especially your money on things you don't like. People who buy what they hate are the ones who are toxic, who buy books simply so they have details to criticize.

Please make new IPs rather than repackaging the same shit from three or five decades ago. I’m drowning in a wasteland of creative stagnation

Here's the problem: When something becomes a franchise/brand, that's the tipping point when profit is more important than quality.

I like following the writers/developers/etc. instead of company/setting/whatever. Usually they deliver something good, despite restrictions.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

=

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

We would rather you did this too, believe you me.

If you don’t want to hear people complain, then don’t go online. If you want a toxically positive echo chamber, then this isn’t the venue for you.

On my part I'm sincere. Don't waste your time and especially your money on things you don't like. People who buy what they hate are the ones who are toxic, who buy books simply so they have details to criticize.

Please make new IPs rather than repackaging the same shit from three or five decades ago. I’m drowning in a wasteland of creative stagnation

Here's the problem: When something becomes a franchise/brand, that's the tipping point when profit is more important than quality.

I like following the writers/developers/etc. instead of company/setting/whatever. Usually they deliver something good, despite restrictions.

Thanks. Yeah, I pretty much gave up on corpos. I prefer original indie stuff now. They may not have the budget of a corpo, but they have more freedom and more passion without corporate oversight. I’m disillusioned with the concept of IP.

I’m pseudo-nostalgic for the 1st and 2nd editions of 40k, despite having only gotten into it at 3rd, because they were more experimental than what there is now. Even though 40k has a whole galaxy of stuff to explore, the published material is just bizarrely conservative in focus. The only kind of human settlements we really see are those massive gothic hive cities, despite there being a bunch of other types at various stages of technological development.

By fandom standards 40k gives writers a lot of leeway. There’s the galactic scale, there’s the freedom to invent your own planets and armies without worrying too much about where they fit, there’s a ridiculous number of wars and armies named simply as throwaway references without further elaboration… but it just feels perfunctory to me. As interesting as the Kabal of the Wraithkind or the Sons of Malice or Craftworld Altansar might sound, they’re just throwaway references used for flavor. I want to see actual stories about them.

 

[Mangoose]

=

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

We would rather you did this too, believe you me.

If you don’t want to hear people complain, then don’t go online. If you want a toxically positive echo chamber, then this isn’t the venue for you.

On my part I'm sincere. Don't waste your time and especially your money on things you don't like. People who buy what they hate are the ones who are toxic, who buy books simply so they have details to criticize.

Please make new IPs rather than repackaging the same shit from three or five decades ago. I’m drowning in a wasteland of creative stagnation

Here's the problem: When something becomes a franchise/brand, that's the tipping point when profit is more important than quality.

I like following the writers/developers/etc. instead of company/setting/whatever. Usually they deliver something good, despite restrictions.

By fandom standards 40k gives writers a lot of leeway. There’s the galactic scale, there’s the freedom to invent your own planets and armies without worrying too much about where they fit, there’s a ridiculous number of wars and armies named simply as throwaway references without further elaboration… but it just feels perfunctory to me. As interesting as the Kabal of the Wraithkind or the Sons of Malice or Craftworld Altansar might sound, they’re just throwaway references used for flavor. I want to see actual stories about them.

That's why you concentrate on book/book-series look
Gaunt's Ghosts
Eisenhorn-Ravenor
Forge of Mars

(Off the top of my head)

TBH I rely on word of mouth always on anything. And I don't mean nominal reviews but, say, a collection of impressions (sincere facts/opinion) from the Codex gaming forum.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

=

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

We would rather you did this too, believe you me.

If you don’t want to hear people complain, then don’t go online. If you want a toxically positive echo chamber, then this isn’t the venue for you.

On my part I'm sincere. Don't waste your time and especially your money on things you don't like. People who buy what they hate are the ones who are toxic, who buy books simply so they have details to criticize.

Please make new IPs rather than repackaging the same shit from three or five decades ago. I’m drowning in a wasteland of creative stagnation

Here's the problem: When something becomes a franchise/brand, that's the tipping point when profit is more important than quality.

I like following the writers/developers/etc. instead of company/setting/whatever. Usually they deliver something good, despite restrictions.

By fandom standards 40k gives writers a lot of leeway. There’s the galactic scale, there’s the freedom to invent your own planets and armies without worrying too much about where they fit, there’s a ridiculous number of wars and armies named simply as throwaway references without further elaboration… but it just feels perfunctory to me. As interesting as the Kabal of the Wraithkind or the Sons of Malice or Craftworld Altansar might sound, they’re just throwaway references used for flavor. I want to see actual stories about them.

That's why you concentrate on book/book-series look
Gaunt's Ghosts
Eisenhorn-Ravenor
Forge of Mars

(Off the top of my head)

TBH I rely on word of mouth always on anything. And I don't mean nominal reviews but, say, a collection of impressions (sincere facts/opinion) from the Codex gaming forum.

I’ve read Gaunt’s Ghosts, Ciaphas Cain and others. Back in the 2000s, I think it was.

 

[Mangoose]

=

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

We would rather you did this too, believe you me.

If you don’t want to hear people complain, then don’t go online. If you want a toxically positive echo chamber, then this isn’t the venue for you.

On my part I'm sincere. Don't waste your time and especially your money on things you don't like. People who buy what they hate are the ones who are toxic, who buy books simply so they have details to criticize.

Please make new IPs rather than repackaging the same shit from three or five decades ago. I’m drowning in a wasteland of creative stagnation

Here's the problem: When something becomes a franchise/brand, that's the tipping point when profit is more important than quality.

I like following the writers/developers/etc. instead of company/setting/whatever. Usually they deliver something good, despite restrictions.

By fandom standards 40k gives writers a lot of leeway. There’s the galactic scale, there’s the freedom to invent your own planets and armies without worrying too much about where they fit, there’s a ridiculous number of wars and armies named simply as throwaway references without further elaboration… but it just feels perfunctory to me. As interesting as the Kabal of the Wraithkind or the Sons of Malice or Craftworld Altansar might sound, they’re just throwaway references used for flavor. I want to see actual stories about them.

That's why you concentrate on book/book-series look
Gaunt's Ghosts
Eisenhorn-Ravenor
Forge of Mars

(Off the top of my head)

TBH I rely on word of mouth always on anything. And I don't mean nominal reviews but, say, a collection of impressions (sincere facts/opinion) from the Codex gaming forum.

I’ve read Gaunt’s Ghosts, Ciaphas Cain and others. Back in the 2000s, I think it was.

Then.. it's time to reread lol.

Seriously that's what I do with 40k.

And Lovecraft.

The main thing about 40k is that it allows for you to not take it seriously. For me, that means I can enjoy as comedy. Yes, it's not the same as before, but I find it better to find the comedy, given as you said the alternatives aren't exactly better. Especially since you're looking for a setting/IP. Usually what is "good" are self-enclosed stories. You might even be happier sticking with 40k bullshit.

In a manner, that's why I like well-rated DC/Marvel comics but they're not even close to my obsession with Vertigo (Saga of the Swamp Thing, Hellblazer, From Hell). The former I read for fun in my free time. The latter I'm just gonna fucking finish reading it, free time or not heh.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Then.. it's time to reread lol.

Seriously that's what I do with 40k.

And Lovecraft.

The main thing about 40k is that it allows for you to not take it seriously. For me, that means I can enjoy as comedy. Yes, it's not the same as before, but I find it better to find the comedy, given as you said the alternatives aren't exactly better. Especially since you're looking for a setting/IP. Usually what is "good" are self-enclosed stories. You might even be happier sticking with 40k bullshit.

In a manner, that's why I like well-rated DC/Marvel comics but they're not even close to my obsession with Vertigo (Saga of the Swamp Thing, Hellblazer, From Hell). The former I read for fun in my free time. The latter I'm just gonna fucking finish reading it, free time or not heh.

Well, I'm currently trying to write my own alternatives when I can find the time and motivation. I'm writing self-contained short stories specifically for that reason. The problem is that, unless you have a publisher who can advertise it for you, original fiction doesn't get much views unless it's pornographic in nature.

So there's this vicious cycle where a corpo gets first mover advantage, prevents any competitors from surviving, steadily declines in quality until it finally self-destructs, leaving a wasteland of a whole lot of nothing.

 

[Mangoose]

Then.. it's time to reread lol.

Seriously that's what I do with 40k.

And Lovecraft.

The main thing about 40k is that it allows for you to not take it seriously. For me, that means I can enjoy as comedy. Yes, it's not the same as before, but I find it better to find the comedy, given as you said the alternatives aren't exactly better. Especially since you're looking for a setting/IP. Usually what is "good" are self-enclosed stories. You might even be happier sticking with 40k bullshit.

In a manner, that's why I like well-rated DC/Marvel comics but they're not even close to my obsession with Vertigo (Saga of the Swamp Thing, Hellblazer, From Hell). The former I read for fun in my free time. The latter I'm just gonna fucking finish reading it, free time or not heh.

Well, I'm currently trying to write my own alternatives when I can find the time and motivation. I'm writing self-contained short stories specifically for that reason. The problem is that, unless you have a publisher who can advertise it for you, original fiction doesn't get much views unless it's pornographic in nature.

So there's this vicious cycle where a corpo gets first mover advantage, prevents any competitors from surviving, steadily declines in quality until it finally self-destructs, leaving a wasteland of a whole lot of nothing.

Oh shit damn that is awesome just that you're writing. I don't even have the confidence to do it lol

..But now I very much understand your "elitist"-ish talk earlier. Because I'm like that too. If it's not written with care I drop it.

Oh and.. I'd definitely want more continuation on Gaunt's Ghosts than more HH. Though I feel like Abnett might have been using HH Valdor to develop him into said King of Yellow in the Inquisitors series. Which.. whatever, I don't mind if as long as it's good (and either makes me laugh or in awe due to the absurdity). I don't expect highbrow from 40k

In terms of lowbrow, though, there isn't much alternative. Well you can add Prichard, I suppose.

But.. the Forgotten Realms fandom, you will be torn apart for not scrupulously completely canon-true.

Edit: But given you having more experience reading/writing, I'm probably telling you the obvious (or plain wrong).

 

[Storyfag]

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

We would rather you did this too, believe you me.

If you don’t want to hear people complain, then don’t go online. If you want a toxically positive echo chamber, then this isn’t the venue for you.

I don't want to hear specifically you complain. It is tiresome to hear the same phrasing regarding Starship Troopers, urban fantasy in general, VtM in particular, 'nids and Starcraft. Get more creative.

 

[Socrates]

Again, I’m not interested in 40k anymore. Especially not 40k. I absolutely despise the Imperium aesthetically and 99% of 40k has long since degenerated into ultrasmurf jerkoff sessions. Blegh

Please make new IPs rather than repackaging the same shit from three or five decades ago. I’m drowning in a wasteland of creative stagnation

This is unequivocally wrong. There is plenty of good stuff for everyone.

 

[Mangoose]

]

I’d rather play a different video game IP at this point, not waste my time on 40k when I don’t like it anymore. I just wish there were alternatives to invest in.

We would rather you did this too, believe you me.

If you don’t want to hear people complain, then don’t go online. If you want a toxically positive echo chamber, then this isn’t the venue for you.

Actually this is a toxically positive non-echo chamber. That's why I like it.

As Storyfag said, I want to hear something new. That makes me think about things. Learn things. Maybe even appreciate you. Maybe.

I am very very easily bored.. like since a kid, if I had nothing to ponder in my mind I was bored. Yeah I needed my daily philosophy when I was like 13.

But anyways. Storyfag is just engaging in a mutually toxic discussion, which is pretty normal.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Oh shit damn that is awesome just that you're writing. I don't even have the confidence to do it lol

Thanks. Writing is easy. Writing well, executing ideas into practice, now that is the hard part. What you need to do is push away your doubts and just write. It doesn't matter what you write, because you can always revise it later. Writing is a skill that you never finish refining, and your works will never be perfect. Writing is an iterative process. I think a lot of what I write is terrible, but writing it is more satisfying than not writing it.

A lot of fans seem to have an irrational fear of the creative process, a fear of failure, which I feel only contributes to the ongoing problem of creative stagnation in the publishing sphere. It's normal for your work to be bad and you shouldn't be afraid of that. You're human and you're gonna make mistakes. What matter is pushing past your doubt and doing it anyway.

It's doubly hard for me because of my adhd. I commonly put half-written stories on the backburner for years and writing others before getting back to them, if I ever get back to them. It's something I'm trying to work through.

..But now I very much understand your "elitist"-ish talk earlier. Because I'm like that too. If it's not written with care I drop it.

I apologize if I come across as elitist. I'm very jaded, disillusioned, and generally tired.

But.. the Forgotten Realms fandom, you will be torn apart for not scrupulously completely canon-true.

Hence why I don't engage with ttrpgs anymore. They're advertised as adventures in the theater of the mind, but in practice they're dogmatic religions where you have to play one particular way or hit the highway. So I hit the highway rather than torture myself.

I do appreciate 40k for its lack-of-canon policy in theory, but in practice they don't do anything with it besides excusing continuity errors because there's literally too much stuff for them to be able to care about.

I want to hear something new. That makes me think about things. Learn things. Maybe even appreciate you. Maybe.

I don't know what to tell you. It's the autistic special interests talking. Maybe I'll have something for you after writing a few novels worth of original material.

There's a tubi survey result going around saying that the majority of Millennials and Zoomers want original material rather than endless requels, which fits with my experience.

Is there a better thread for this convo? This obviously doesn't concern 40k anymore.

 

[Mangoose]

I want to hear something new. That makes me think about things. Learn things. Maybe even appreciate you. Maybe.

I don't know what to tell you. It's the autistic special interests talking. Maybe I'll have something for you after writing a few novels worth of original material.

Nah I do the same thing, quite understood. lmao

Is there a better thread for this convo? This obviously doesn't concern 40k anymore.

Nah 40k doesn't care, go ahead lmao.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

As concerns 40k specifically, I think there's just too much stuff for anyone to care about and definitely far more than GW is able to manage. As interesting as individual ideas may be, the whole is just too unwieldy and unmanageable. Conversely, there's tons of those potentially interesting ideas that get mentioned in passing and never explored. Far too much gets lost in endless shuffling. The stuff that GW seemingly actually cares about is too inconsistent to bother keeping track of anyway. Inconsistencies are unavoidable for a galaxy with millions of years of history, but you'd think it would be easier when you're only dealing with the primarchs. GW is obviously biased towards the Imperium, so plots like the Ynnari ultimately go nowhere and waste your time.

Then there's also just plain weird disgusting shit like that one time some loyalist space marines just up and ate a convent of sisters of battle for good luck or something. I'm almost certainly garbling the actual events but that's all I remember.

Notable retcons like the Newcron controversy get my goat. I can understand wanting to give the Necrons more diversity and utility as a storytelling tool, because there's only so much that you can do with space skynet terminators, but changing them to "woe is us, we must reverse biotransference by possessing these week feeble human bodies" is not remotely an improvement imo. You just took their prior simplistic motive and turned it 180 degrees. Since they're not the Imperium, GW doesn't dedicate much resources to actually doing much with this new background beyond writing the adventures of a handful of writer mary sues like Trazyn and... I care so little about them that I can't even name the others.

There's hints that Khaine, the eldar deity, is in fact a C'tan. But beyond throwaway easter egg references that you have to scour the bibliography for, GW doesn't do anything with this. No, they devote most of the attention on C'tan to the Void Dragon and the Omnissiah conspiracy theories, which is still very small and never receive any kind of resolution either and the nature of which depends on the proclivities of the current writer. Is the Omnissiah the Void Dragon? Did the Emperor harness it? To what end? What are machine spirits? How does the Dragon interact with them? Are Khaine and the Dragon artificial C'tan/demon hybrids created as weapons and infrastructure? Anonymous contributors to 1d4chan have put more thought into this than GW has!

I'm really tired of it. If you try to appeal to everyone, then you just end up appealing to no one. There is too much stuff to care about and most of it isn't worth caring about unless you want to go insane writing conspiracy theories and fanfic. If I'm gonna ignore huge swathes of canon anyway to focus on the handful of things I care about, then I might as well just make up my own IP.

 

[Tyranicon]

original fiction doesn't get much views unless it's pornographic in nature.

Embrace the porn pill, brother.

Everything's better with sex.

-slaaneshi noises-