Vapourware A New Top 101 Poll

[Shaki]

Obligatory:


View attachment 46260

This is the world Disco fans want

 

[Sigourn]

now, is Dark Souls a RPG? nope. done SL1 playthroughs of them all. again, stats at char creation and leveling are RPG-elements, but at its core it is an action game.

It's an Action RPG.

There comes a point where you have to accept that just because you don't think of it as an RPG, the vast majority thinks otherwise and thus decides what it is.

 

[Shaki]

now, is Dark Souls a RPG? nope. done SL1 playthroughs of them all. again, stats at char creation and leveling are RPG-elements, but at its core it is an action game.

It's an Action RPG.

There comes a point where you have to accept that just because you don't think of it as an RPG, the vast majority thinks otherwise and thus decides what it is.

If majority think this is a woman, does it make it one?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Instead of just taking cheap shots, why not actually contribute a meaningful definition of your own? It's always easier to attack others than to actually have a position.

We've had interminable discussions about the RPG genre; the best definition is based on three essential sets of components: characters, combat, and exploration. More precisely, we could define the crucial individual elements within those sets of components:
1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
9. Exploration (Player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)


Just as RPGs can be categorized by major subgenres, we can also identify RPG-adjacent genres of games, which have similarity with RPGs but are clearly distinct.

Major RPG Subgenres, with some examples of games that are both high quality and fit well into the subgenre:

1. Rogue-likes: Rogue (1980), Telengard (1982), Nethack (1987), Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994)
2. Turn-Based Blobbers: Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981), Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990), Might & Magic: World of Xeen (1994), Grimoire: Winged Heralds of the Exemplar (2017)
3. Garriot-likes: Ultima III: Exodus (1983), Ultima IV: The Quest of the Avatar (1985), Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992)
4. Real-Time Blobbers: Dungeon Master (1987) & Chaos Strikes Back (1989), Legend of Grimrock (2012) & Legend of Grimrock II (2014), Eye of the Beholder (1991), Black Crypt (1992)
5. Tactical RPG: Pool of Radiance (1988), Death Knights of Krynn (1991), and other Gold Box games, Perihelion (1993), Temple of Elemental Evil (2003)
6. Underworld-likes: Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), UU II: The Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996), King’s Field IV: The Ancient City (2002)
7. JRPG: Final Fantasy VI (1994), Final Fantasy IV (1991), Final Fantasy IX (2000), Planescape: Torment (1999)
8. C&C: Fallout (1997), Fallout 2 (1998), Arcanum (2001), Age of Decadence (2015)
9. Open World RPGs: The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (2002), The Faery Tale Adventure (1986), Fallout: New Vegas (2010), Kingdom Come: Deliverance (2018)
10. Action RPG: Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen (2012/2013), Demon’s Souls (2009), Dark Souls (2011), Salt & Sanctuary (2016)

RPG-Adjacent Genres, with some examples of games that are both high quality and fit well:

1. Squad-based Tactics w/RPG elements: Jagged Alliance 2 (1999), X-Com (1994), Final Fantasy Tactics (1997), Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children (2020)
2. Strategy w/RPG elements: Heroes of Might & Magic II (1996) and other HoMM games, Sword of Aragon (1989)
3. Adventure w/RPG elements: Quest for Glory (1990) and sequels
4. Beat-‘em-ups w/RPG elements: Dragon’s Crown (2013), Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom (1994) / Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara (1996)
5. Action w/RPG elements: Deus Ex (2000), Blade of Darkness (2001)
6. Metroidvania w/RPG elements: Bloodstained (2019), Hollow Knight (2017)
7. Person Simulator: Alter Ego (1986), Princess Maker (1991) series, Wonder Project J (1994)
8. Gamebooks: Warlock of Firetop Mountain (2016), Disco Elysium (2019)

Disco Elysium is yet another example of a CYOA with RPG elements, which is to say a gamebook.

 

[Sigourn]

If majority think this is a woman, does it make it one?

Do you have scientific proof on what makes an RPG?

 

[Butter]

now, is Dark Souls a RPG? nope. done SL1 playthroughs of them all. again, stats at char creation and leveling are RPG-elements, but at its core it is an action game.

It's an Action RPG.

There comes a point where you have to accept that just because you don't think of it as an RPG, the vast majority thinks otherwise and thus decides what it is.

If majority think this is a woman, does it make it one?

Believe it or not, that's actually an RPG.

 

[Shaki]

Believe it or not, that's actually an RPG.

Shiiiiiiiet, still better RPG than disco

 

[raeven]

Instead of just taking cheap shots, why not actually contribute a meaningful definition of your own? It's always easier to attack others than to actually have a position.

We've had interminable discussions about the RPG genre; the best definition is based on three essential sets of components: characters, combat, and exploration. More precisely, we could define the crucial individual elements within those sets of components:
1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
9. Exploration (Player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)


Just as RPGs can be categorized by major subgenres, we can also identify RPG-adjacent genres of games, which have similarity with RPGs but are clearly distinct.

Major RPG Subgenres, with some examples of games that are both high quality and fit well into the subgenre:

1. Rogue-likes: Rogue (1980), Telengard (1982), Nethack (1987), Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994)
2. Turn-Based Blobbers: Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981), Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990), Might & Magic: World of Xeen (1994), Grimoire: Winged Heralds of the Exemplar (2017)
3. Garriot-likes: Ultima III: Exodus (1983), Ultima IV: The Quest of the Avatar (1985), Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992)
4. Real-Time Blobbers: Dungeon Master (1987) & Chaos Strikes Back (1989), Legend of Grimrock (2012) & Legend of Grimrock II (2014), Eye of the Beholder (1991), Black Crypt (1992)
5. Tactical RPG: Pool of Radiance (1988), Death Knights of Krynn (1991), and other Gold Box games, Perihelion (1993), Temple of Elemental Evil (2003)
6. Underworld-likes: Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), UU II: The Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996), King’s Field IV: The Ancient City (2002)
7. JRPG: Final Fantasy VI (1994), Final Fantasy IV (1991), Final Fantasy IX (2000), Planescape: Torment (1999)
8. C&C: Fallout (1997), Fallout 2 (1998), Arcanum (2001), Age of Decadence (2015)
9. Open World RPGs: The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (2002), The Faery Tale Adventure (1986), Fallout: New Vegas (2010), Kingdom Come: Deliverance (2018)
10. Action RPG: Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen (2012/2013), Demon’s Souls (2009), Dark Souls (2011), Salt & Sanctuary (2016)

RPG-Adjacent Genres, with some examples of games that are both high quality and fit well:

1. Squad-based Tactics w/RPG elements: Jagged Alliance 2 (1999), X-Com (1994), Final Fantasy Tactics (1997), Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children (2020)
2. Strategy w/RPG elements: Heroes of Might & Magic II (1996) and other HoMM games, Sword of Aragon (1989)
3. Adventure w/RPG elements: Quest for Glory (1990) and sequels
4. Beat-‘em-ups w/RPG elements: Dragon’s Crown (2013), Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom (1994) / Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara (1996)
5. Action w/RPG elements: Deus Ex (2000), Blade of Darkness (2001)
6. Metroidvania w/RPG elements: Bloodstained (2019), Hollow Knight (2017)
7. Person Simulator: Alter Ego (1986), Princess Maker (1991) series, Wonder Project J (1994)
8. Gamebooks: Warlock of Firetop Mountain (2016), Disco Elysium (2019)

Disco Elysium is yet another example of a CYOA with RPG elements, which is to say a gamebook.

That's a reasonable definition, if quite strict.

Amusingly, Disco Elysium contains every one of those elements outlined. I mean presuming "underworld" includes things like the church, interior / underground areas, etc. Which I assume it would, otherwise a whole lot of games would not be RPGs.

 

[behold_a_man]

Amusingly, Disco Elysium contains every one of those elements outlined. I mean presuming "underworld" includes things like the church, interior / underground areas, etc. Which I assume it would, otherwise a whole lot of games would not be RPGs.

Similarly to late King's Bounty games or Heroes of Might & Magic IV (specifically, IV had consumables, meaningful party composition, heroes could actively take part in battles, and character customization had much bigger implications than in previous entries).

 

[Tyranicon]

There are far more gen z weeb coomers into VNs than there are into shit like Disco Elysium

There are no RPGs or RPG-like games that are mainstream with zoomers, it's very niche

Just a random anecdote, but some older zoomers I know seem to have taken a shine to BG3. According to them, it's basically mainstream. Not as mainstream as palworld or minecraft, but it's getting there.

TTRPGs also seem to be popular in colleges now, so it probably feeds into it.

Maybe it'll be a gateway game to more prestigious RPGs.

 

[felipepepe]

Just a random anecdote, but some older zoomers I know seem to have taken a shine to BG3. According to them, it's basically mainstream. Not as mainstream as palworld or minecraft, but it's getting there.

I had a fun discussion about this the other day. To a lot of younger people, BG3 is much easier to get into than RTwP RPGs like BG1/2 or PoE & Pathfinder.

It's a weird historical inversion... BG1 made party-based RPGs go mainstream during the RTS craze of the late 90s/early 2000s, but RTS have been out of style for years, zoomers have no idea how to control these sort of games.

 

[Martyr]

just because you like a game, it doesn't make said game a RPG.

It is not the question of liking it or not.

but it is - you guys think Disco Elysium is an amazing game, plus the devs identify it as a RPG. so you want it on the "best RPGs of all time" list, without questioning if it even belongs here.
but that's not what RPG Codex is for. RPG Codex is (or was) a supposedly grognard forum, not one of these mainstream sites.

you want "best of RPG" lists to look like
1. Red Dead Redemption 2
2. Final Fantasy XV
3. Disco Elysium
4. Zelda: Breath of the Wild
5. Assassin's Creed Origins
? well, you're in luck. about every mainstream gaming site's list is going to look like that. we don't need that here.

character creation and possibility of leveling are RPG-elements, but tons of games have RPG-elements nowadays.

You're going into a weird territory here, because if you break everything into "RPG-elements + something else" (for example Icewind Dale is tactics with RPG-elements) then suddenly nothing is an RPG. In my opinion there is a difference between something having RPG elements as minor support points (which, I agree, is very common) and RPG elements being the core of the game.

since D&D invented RPGs and D&D literally is a small scale wargame (=tactics) with stats, I think it's fine to say that tactics + stats = RPG.
not "weird territory", just sticking to the roots.

if you really think that Disco should belong on the RPG Codex list of greatest RPGs, you're an enabler of decline and should stick to other gaming forums, instead of dragging this one down to mainstream level.

I think you simply don't understand what constitutes and RPG and as such shouldn't be here. Stick to general gaming.

this is just gold. you may hold my parrot for this level of irony.
so the guys who say "Wizardry, Pool of Radiance, Temple of Elemental Evil should be on the list" should migrate to "general gaming" and the guys who go like "the devs say it's an RPG so it's an RPG" take over the RPG discussions on a formerly grognard forum. very nice logic.

I'd even advise to vote for Planescape Torment in a new poll despite it being a meh-RPG (but a fantastic storytelling-game) just so Disco doesn't get high on the list.

If it gets high on the list, then it means that's the will of the people. I'd rather not falsify the results merely because I dislike one game or another. But that's just me.

it's not "falsifying" the results if I think that Planescape is a good storyfag RPG and thus deserves it to be on the RPG list, instead of a good CYOA.

 

[Harthwain]

but it is - you guys think Disco Elysium is an amazing game, plus the devs identify it as a RPG. so you want it on the "best RPGs of all time" list, without questioning if it even belongs here.

1) I don't really care about Disco Elysium getting on any lists. But if there is going to be a vote, then I'd like such a list to be honest and will cast my vote as I see fit and expect others to do the same (as is only right). But trying to rig the vote in order to get a "correct" result is... just wrong. Evenmoreso considering the Codex still has no unified answer to "What is an RPG?" question.

2) Do I think Disco Elysium is an amazing game? Yes. But I think so mainly BECAUSE I think it is an amazing RPG (with great writing), not because I like it. This is key difference. Unlike some, I am capable of recognizing games as RPGs, even if I dislike them (and vice versa).

you want "best of RPG" lists to look like
1. Red Dead Redemption 2 [...]

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. I will leave it at that.

since D&D invented RPGs and D&D literally is a small scale wargame (=tactics) with stats, I think it's fine to say that tactics + stats = RPG.
not "weird territory", just sticking to the roots.

A few counterpoints:

1) Should we "stick to the roots" and keep playing Pong? Yes, there are roots, but RPGs evolved past being "small scale wargames" so looking at RPGs only as "small scale wargames" or "tactics" games, where combat is the meat and everything else is spice, is staying in the past and not noticing how the world've changed. I am not yet old enough to calcify like that.

2) There are RPG settings that aren't all about "small scale wargame with stats" and Disco Elysium fits with them. Don't get me wrong, I do like tactical games, too, but I like when RPGs are involving the player in more than just combat. Because to me, RPGs are primarly about interactions with the world. One of my top RPGs is NEO Scavenger as it is one of the few games where the world itself matters (although it is VERY light on the actual RPG elements, I will admit this much).

3) Disco Elysium is remarkable, because it "sticks to the roots" way more than most games that try to use RPG elements to pretend they are RPGs. In Disco Elysium being an RPG lies at its core. It was designed from ground-up to be a cRPG. It is a game that reminds me of classics such as Arcanum, Fallout or Planescape: Torment. But I guess this can be easily missed if you're a combatfag.

Similarly Planescape: Torment may be using "small scale wargame (=tactics) with stats", but I doubt 95% of people remember it as the best RPG of all times (including the Codex itself) for its combat (in contrast with the likes of Icewind Dale or even Baldur's Gate series, which really are centred around tactical combat). Instead it is remembered for exactly the same reasons that Disco Elysium currently is.

we

Stop pretending you're speaking for someone other than yourself.

this is just gold. you may hold my parrot for this level of irony.

"Gold"? It is literally me giving you a taste of your own medicine by redirecting your own words at you. No more and no less. And, yeah, it is supposed to be ironic. Good job catching it, I guess? And, yes, the kind of logic you displayed was pretty stupid. Hence me mirroring it back at you to show it.

it's not "falsifying" the results if I think that Planescape is a good storyfag RPG and thus deserves it to be on the RPG list, instead of a good CYOA.

So you're saying that what elevates "a good CYOA" to "good storyfag RPG" is shitty/trash combat. Beacause that's literally the only difference between Planescape: Torment and Disco Elysium. And we're talking about a game where even other Codexers agree that Planescape: Torment axing out most of its shitty encounters would've served the game more than keeping it there. Have some proof here if you don't believe me. (I will also ping Darth Roxor, since I am using his quotes in this particular instance.)

Of course, you could argue that it doesn't mean you have to have shit/trash combat, simply make good combat! I'd agree with that, but... It doesn't really change the state of Planescape: Torment's combat (which is shit/trash). And you can still recommend Disco Elysium to those who like "good storyfag RPG", because it shares all the GOOD aspects of Planescape: Torment without having the bad ones. Ironic, isn't it?

 

[raeven]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me which of the RPG tenets outlined above disco elysium fails to have, other than arguably "has an underworld", which is preeetttty tenuous. If you expand the "underworld" to include interior areas, basements, etc, disco Elysium fulfills all of the requirements given. That's not a matter of opinion, it's all there in the game.

I don't care if it becomes the codex's favorite, I'm just saying that it's ludicrous to say it's not an RPG when by your own given definition it clearly is.

Time to move the goalposts maybe?

 

[behold_a_man]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me which of the RPG tenets outlined above disco elysium fails to have, other than arguably "has an underworld", which is preeetttty tenuous. If you expand the "underworld" to include interior areas, basements, etc, disco Elysium fulfills all of the requirements given. That's not a matter of opinion, it's all there in the game.

I don't care if it becomes the codex's favorite, I'm just saying that it's ludicrous to say it's not an RPG when by your own given definition it clearly is.

Time to move the goalposts maybe?

For me, one of the most important aspects of any RPG-like game is mastering the combat system. It involves two factors:

• Getting the response from the game on how my character performs during combat. For that, I need a lot of data (that is, a lot of combat) in some pretty uniform format (unlike, for example, in typical platform games where things are often very hard to generalize).
• The ability to change my character / party composition depending on how my character performs (or is expected to perform) in combat.

Does this game you are discussing have both of them?

 

[raeven]

1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
- Check
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
- Check
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
- Check
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
- Check
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
- Check
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
- Check
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
- Check
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
- Check
9. Exploration (Player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
- Check
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
- I mean, basically a check? There are dangerous underground areas you can explore, buildings you can explore separate from the main overworld
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
- Definitely a check, more so than most RPGs. While some quests are mandatory, there are always multiple ways to go about them, branching paths etc
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)
- Check, you've got inventory management, money limitations that affect gameplay in a big way, choosing which items to wear to buff a stat or what have you. It's relatively bare bones but it's definitely there.

What am I missing here??

I'm not even arguing that it's a 'good' RPG or an RPG that codexians would tend to like, it isn't. But like... to call a game with level-ups, an inventory, a rudimentary and rarely used combat system, and skill trees more of a CYOA than an RPG feels a bit disingenuous.

 

[raeven]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me which of the RPG tenets outlined above disco elysium fails to have, other than arguably "has an underworld", which is preeetttty tenuous. If you expand the "underworld" to include interior areas, basements, etc, disco Elysium fulfills all of the requirements given. That's not a matter of opinion, it's all there in the game.

I don't care if it becomes the codex's favorite, I'm just saying that it's ludicrous to say it's not an RPG when by your own given definition it clearly is.

Time to move the goalposts maybe?

For me, one of the most important aspects of any RPG-like game is mastering the combat system. It involves two factors:

• Getting the response from the game on how my character performs during combat. For that, I need a lot of data (that is, a lot of combat) in some pretty uniform format (unlike, for example, in typical platform games where things are often very hard to generalize).
• The ability to change my character / party composition depending on how my character performs (or is expected to perform) in combat.

Does this game you are discussing have both of them?

There are only 2 or 3 encounters in the game that you could really call combat. Neither of them are remotely tactical. However your stats and how you have leveled / skilled up your character do affect the outcome, and you can optimize your character to succeed at those encounters.

That said, it's definitely the case that it is not a game where combat is really part of the gameplay loop. It's only once or twice and it is not really much like combat in the sense of a traditional RPG.

Which makes it a game that definitely doesn't appeal to a lot of people, especially folks who play RPGs for the combat. (typically I am one of these people btw). It's still an RPG by any definition I can think of, though. Just an atypical one.

 

[behold_a_man]

It's still an RPG by any definition I can think of, though. Just an atypical one.

And how about the ability to conquer a game? Say, at some point, I'm unable to solve some problems, explore some areas, or attain something; then, as I gradually master the game, I get more and more of the things I initially wanted (not necessarily all, or even most of them; just that I can see my character performing better at things it once had severe problems with).

 

[raeven]

It's still an RPG by any definition I can think of, though. Just an atypical one.

And how about the ability to conquer a game? Say, at some point, I'm unable to solve some problems, explore some areas, or attain something; then, as I gradually master the game, I get more and more of the things I initially wanted (not necessarily all, or even most of them; just that I can see my character performing better at things it once had severe problems with).

In a rudimentary sense. Many areas of the game require skill checks tied to stats for you to progress in them or to complete a quest in a desired way, and as you level up you can return to those checks and succeed at them (or have a much higher likelihood of succeeding) due to increasing your skill levels or equipping new items that either buff skills or otherwise allow progression.

That said it's admittedly very basic compared to the sort of systems you are referring to in more traditional RPGs.

 

[Sweeper]

Asking for a definition of an RPG is a bit like asking for a definition of whiteness. Are Italians white? To some folks, I'm sure they are. Others could stretch the definition to its outer limits and claim that all Caucasians (Arabs, Indians, North Africans) are white. On the other hand, no one will argue that Swedes for example aren't white (apart from Benjamin Franklin).
To bring it back to RPGs, claiming that Disco Elysium is an RPG is like claiming that niggers are white. You've went a bit beyond the plausible boundaries. And to go further with my retardation, there's a very simple reason why Disco isn't an RPG. RPGs exist as a spectrum, on the one end you've got role playing and storyfaggotry, and on the other end you've got combat and buildfaggotry.

Here's the neat part, an RPG can exist without the storyfag end of the spectrum, Battle Brothers is a notable example. Why? Because all the necessary aspects of what makes an RPG - an RPG can be met solely through combat (assuming that the game also has the other prerequisites, stats, leveling etc.) Now, you may say, well why can't a game that uses stats to resolve dialogue checks instead of combat be considered an RPG? Now we're discussing forms and essence. Why isn't a dog a cat despite them both being mammals? A dog isn't a cat because it lacks the qualities of dogness. In the same vein, an RPG cannot be an RPG without combat. It can have all the other hallmarks of an RPG, but without the combat it, fundamentally, cannot be one.

a rudimentary and rarely used combat system, and skill trees more of a CYOA than an RPG feels a bit disingenuous.

Ironic.

 

[behold_a_man]

That said it's admittedly very basic compared to the sort of systems you are referring to in more traditional RPGs.

Then I think it would be easier to argue that Faster Than Light, or King's Bounty: The Legend and later, or Heroes of Might & Magic IV are RPGs.

 

[Sigourn]

Asking for a definition of an RPG is a bit like asking for a definition of whiteness. Are Italians white? To some folks, I'm sure they are. Others could stretch the definition to its outer limits and claim that all Caucasians (Arabs, Indians, North Africans) are white. On the other hand, no one will argue that Swedes for example aren't white (apart from Benjamin Franklin).
To bring it back to RPGs, claiming that Disco Elysium is an RPG is like claiming that niggers are white

In other words: no one claims black people are white; meanwhile, you have loads of people claiming Disco Elysium is an RPG in this very thread.

 

[Serus]

Someone mentioned Italians and their whiteness. I had an Italian friend once. He could have posed to propaganda posters in 3rd reich. Blonde with nordic/germanic features. Granted, he was from one of the northern provinces but NOT from Tirol, it was Veneto iirc.

Thinking more about this, it's probably off topic. Who cares.

 

[OSK]

In other words: no one claims black people are white; meanwhile, you have loads of people claiming Disco Elysium is an RPG in this very thread.

Brazilians do.

 

[Zanthia]

If Disco Elysium isn't an RPG then neither is Age of Decadence. They're really similar, just DE goes for depth and AoD goes for breadth. (But I would say they have similar replayability, in that I want to replay both with a different skill focus/class but haven't yet...)

We've had interminable discussions about the RPG genre; the best definition is based on three essential sets of components: characters, combat, and exploration. More precisely, we could define the crucial individual elements within those sets of components:
1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
9. Exploration (Player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)

This list, used to categorise DE and AoD as meaningfully different, puts them both as very nearly identical RPGs. They both semi-fail on 9 and 11, but AoD has 10 and DE only kinda sorta maybe if you squint does, and AoD totally fails on 7.

DE either has more or less combat than AoD depending on what class you pick. But it's not necessary. "Combat" with reticent witnesses or unhelpful officials still works the same way if it's based on your skills and, in DE's case, dicerolls. The sense of picking your character's next move according to their abilities so that they defeat their enemy/get the treasure is still intact.