The Illusion of Complex Character Systems

Strength, Dexterity, Hacking, etc. from games such as Fallout and Arcanum got me thinking: What's the point of a skill or attribute running from 0 to 100?

Just because you have 20 skills running from 0 to 100, it doesn't make the character system more complex, does it? Think about it. Let's say I was to play Fallout and I decided to invest in the science skill. At what point will I realize (without having read a walk-through of some sort) that investing any further is a waste of time? Or let's assume that a quest requires your character to have a Science Skill of say 200 to hack a computer, and that you are now at 100. How will you as a player know that you will need to reach 200 to hack this PC? I assume normally players will round off the whole skill system to say "Okay, every level I will try to push up these skills by 10". Players start to "dumb-down", if you will, the skill system because let's face it, I don't think anyone actually has sleepless nights about if he should stay at 78 Science or go for 81 Science when he next levels up.

It seems to me that the only reason why this type of system is used, is it may give players a sense of progression over a long period. You level up after a half-hour. That's why you get these "filler-levels" or "filler-points" with skills. You don't really notice anything until you hit some point where a developer decided to make a quest use this skill level and even then you won't know it until you run into the quest. IF you haven't done it yet.

Is skill systems like this REALLY necessary?

Nope. Use no fixed values (such as "from 1 to 100" or "from 1 to 20", base skills off of core attributes and training (spent points). Roll 3d6 to determine success.

Every system that wants to emulate reality in the most simple way, yet make room for evolution and complexity on all fronts, should utilize this system

Fallout 3 tells you what skill level you need if you can't lockpick or hack something. The same goes for Repair, Explosives, Medicine, etc.

Fallout 1/2 and Arcanum are just games from the Dark Ages of gaming, where each game tried its hardest to be as user-unfriendly as possible, so you had to read a walkthrough to get through some parts. I mean, did anyone of you guys discover that you can blow up the radscorpion cave on your own?

In that new zombie rpg all skills go from 1 to 10. That's a much better solution IMO.

Grunker said:

Nope. Use no fixed values (such as "from 1 to 100" or "from 1 to 20", base skills off of core attributes and training (spent points). Roll 3d6 to determine success.

Every system that wants to emulate reality in the most simple way, yet make room for evolution and complexity on all fronts, should utilize this system

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That system suck, it just make you use your repair/lockpick skill over, and over till you get good roll, you would have to loose something signification with each try to make it a real choice. You could for example loose expensive parts that may be of limited supply first your character would asses difficulty, and then you would decide if you want to risk the part, of lockpick.

Kraszu said:

Grunker said:

Nope. Use no fixed values (such as "from 1 to 100" or "from 1 to 20", base skills off of core attributes and training (spent points). Roll 3d6 to determine success.

Every system that wants to emulate reality in the most simple way, yet make room for evolution and complexity on all fronts, should utilize this system

Click to expand...

That system suck, it just make you use your repair/lockpick skill over, and over till you get good roll, you would have to loose something signification with each try to make it a real choice. You could for example loose expensive parts that may be of limited supply first your character would asses difficulty, and then you would decide if you want to risk the part, of lockpick.

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I've never been a fan of the random element involved with using Social-Skills. Things like hacking, lock-picking, stealing, sneaking, etc. with random elements is stupid since you can just press the reload button when you critically fail (victims start attacking you; guards see you, etc.). When it comes to combat it's not as irritating. When you critically miss or failed to dodge it's hardly worth it to reload since the situation can't get much worse (mostly). You're already in combat.

Skill systems like that of DnD (not the randomized parts) are actually more entertaining. They don't reach level 100 or 300 and your attributes stay virtually the same. Bar unique items with +3 bonuses galore. When you level up it feels like it actually means something since it happens only so often. Mind you, I only played Baldur's Gate 2 up until that drow city and never liked NWN 1 or 2 (couldn't quite place the blame on where it sucked).

Makes me wish Dragon Age: Origins used the DnD skill set instead.

Im in retard bashing mood. =D

Strength, Dexterity, Hacking, etc. from games such as Fallout and Arcanum got me thinking: What's the point of a skill or attribute running from 0 to 100?

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You've got to be fucking kidding me... Retards who have problems with big numbers...
Lets me make this clear to you: its doesnt fucking matter if it goes from 1 to 10 or 1 to 100!

Just because you have 20 skills running from 0 to 100, it doesn't make the character system more complex, does it? Think about it.

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What the fuck is there to think about? Get a dictionary and look up "complex" "character system" and "fucking idiot" or some sort of logic 101 course.

Let's say I was to play Fallout and I decided to invest in the science skill. At what point will I realize (without having read a walk-through of some sort) that investing any further is a waste of time?

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You wouldnt. Why the fuck would you even think about it. Fucking powergamers.

Or let's assume that a quest requires your character to have a Science Skill of say 200 to hack a computer, and that you are now at 100. How will you as a player know that you will need to reach 200 to hack this PC?

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He wouldnt you dimwit. He would just fucking create a character stereotype and just go along with the flow of the game. Cant complete a quest, though luck, move on!

I assume normally players will round off the whole skill system to say "Okay, every level I will try to push up these skills by 10". Players start to "dumb-down", if you will, the skill system because let's face it, I don't think anyone actually has sleepless nights about if he should stay at 78 Science or go for 81 Science when he next levels up.

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Whaat!? Nobody gives a crap if he got +-10 skill points in whatever, you for example have atleast over 9000 in "sucking", +-10 doesnt matter anymore. If somebody got 10 points he just fucking sticks them somewhere, where he thinks it looks cool, goddammit. You actually understood it yourself! Good boy!

Now, Achtung!, I am gonna enlighten you! It boils down to how much you get per level/game! Holy shit! What a revelation!!!

It seems to me that the only reason why this type of system is used, is it may give players a sense of progression over a long period.

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This "system" is used to represent your characters skills in an abstact way. Understand?
Like, if you have 100 skillpoints (lets call them "bananas", so you can better relate). So again, if you have 100... bananas in "shooting", you can shoot a dime from 100 yards or with 100.. bananas in "science" you can solve np complete problems in 100 billion years. You should get a wet towel for your head when you look that up. ;P

You level up after a half-hour. That's why you get these "filler-levels" or "filler-points" with skills. You don't really notice anything

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103 bananas mean 103 yards. Its that simple!

until you hit some point where a developer decided to make a quest use this skill level and even then you won't know it until you run into the quest. IF you haven't done it yet.

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Well, DDUUUUUUUUH! Choises and Consequenses, you may be familiar with it from real life.

Is skill systems like this REALLY necessary?

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To summarize: dude has problems with big numbers and desnt like it when he has no access to the all the quests and all the conditions to be able to fulfill them.
But instead of proposing an idea how to fix such design to meet the expectations of casual gamers/housewife worldwide, he asks dumb questions. Thank you for your attention, good night.

Troubles in bed, "Big" "Nose" George?

I liked the skill/experience system of Bloodlines a lot. Especially the fact that many skills intervened with each other. (balance is another issue of course) Generally, big numbers are there for the "wow" factor. Instead of 100 XP you can just as easily get 1 XP.

You've got to be fucking kidding me... Retards who have problems with big numbers...

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Not really. Just a query regarding whether or not it's really necessary.

Lets me make this clear to you: its doesnt fucking matter if it goes from 1 to 10 or 1 to 100!

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I agree, it doesn't matter if you look at it alone. A skill running from 1 to 10 or from 1 to 100 doesn't really make a difference. How much skillpoints one receives and the time it takes to level up should also be taken into account. After all, if you level up very slowly and receive very little skill points to distribute, chances are you're going to be spending a long time grinding. Cue Dragon Age filler combat.

What the fuck is there to think about? Get a dictionary and look up "complex" "character system" and "fucking idiot" or some sort of logic 101 course.

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I'll give you this point in that my initial impression was that developers use the above mentioned skill systems because the think it might be more complex and interesting to the powergamers. Hence the fault on my part.

You wouldnt. Why the fuck would you even think about it. Fucking powergamers.

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Let me put it differently. Do you sit there looking at your Fallout-stat screen saying to yourself "I think having the Outdoorsman-skill at 127 and my Repair-skill at 57 is good. Let's invest somewhere else.".

Why did you stop at 127 and not at 128? Why did you stop at 57 and not at 58?

He wouldnt you dimwit. He would just fucking create a character stereotype and just go along with the flow of the game. Cant complete a quest, though luck, move on!

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Though it may sound to you that I'm against the whole idea of not being able to do some quests due to a "gimped" character if you will, it's not what I'm thinking. I like the idea of certain quests being closed to you simply because your character doesn't have the required skills to do the quest.

The problem I have is this: If you have 2 quests the first one require 50 science and the other 80 science. On first playthrough one invests 55 into science during the course of the game, thus being able to do the first mentioned quest. Right. All is well.

The next time you play you decide to make your skill a little higher, say 75. What has changed between 55 and 75 APART from the number indicating the skill level? Nothing. You still don't get to do the second quest since your skill level is still too low. So you wasted the 20 distributed skillpoints and here you are thinking something has changed, when it has not.

Whaat!? Nobody gives a crap if he got +-10 skill points in whatever, you for example have atleast over 9000 in "sucking", +-10 doesnt matter anymore. If somebody got 10 points he just fucking sticks them somewhere, where he thinks it looks cool, goddammit. You actually understood it yourself! Good boy!

Now, Achtung!, I am gonna enlighten you! It boils down to how much you get per level/game! Holy shit! What a revelation!!!

Click to expand...

Interesting. So what you're saying is that the reason why I would place 8 extra skill points in a skill, is cause it's cool? And maybe for the fact that it may grant you the ability to do some extra quest out there?

This "system" is used to represent your characters skills in an abstact way. Understand?

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Yes.

Like, if you have 100 skillpoints (lets call them "bananas", so you can better relate). So again, if you have 100... bananas in "shooting", you can shoot a dime from 100 yards or with 100.. bananas in "science" you can solve np complete problems in 100 billion years. You should get a wet towel for your head when you look that up. ;P

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The fist one I don't have much of a problem with since it's a combat skill. That's fine. The second one is a bit more difficult. It's easy to say that if you have 100 skillpoints in science you'd be able to do lotsa calculations, but that does not translate well into a game. How would you abstract science at 0, 1, 2, 3, ... 100? Apart from increasing your chance at successfully using the skill. Which can be countered with Load/Save.

103 bananas mean 103 yards. Its that simple!

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See above.

Well, DDUUUUUUUUH! Choises and Consequenses, you may be familiar with it from real life.

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Yes. I'm familiar with it from the Fallout series (except the 3).

To summarize: dude has problems with big numbers and desnt like it when he has no access to the all the quests and all the conditions to be able to fulfill them.
But instead of proposing an idea how to fix such design to meet the expectations of casual gamers/housewife worldwide, he asks dumb questions. Thank you for your attention, good night.

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I never said I don't like the idea that I don't have access to all quests. It was due to a misunderstanding. I'm not a casual gamer since I enjoyed the Fallouts, Arcanum, etc. faaar more than most RPGs today.



Though I read your first line, something tells me you bashed just for the sake of bashing. Are you looking for some of those Kodex Kool Points?

ghostdog said:

I liked the skill/experience system of Bloodlines a lot. Especially the fact that many skills intervened with each other. (balance is another issue of course) Generally, big numbers are there for the "wow" factor. Instead of 100 XP you can just as easily get 1 XP.

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Exactly. It just annoys me.

Big Nose George said:

Im in retard bashing mood. =D

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Jesus christ. This was obnoxious.

Red Russian said:

I've never been a fan of the random element involved with using Social-Skills. Things like hacking, lock-picking, stealing, sneaking, etc. with random elements is stupid since you can just press the reload button when you critically fail (victims start attacking you; guards see you, etc.).

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For social skills I would not do it, for others rolls could be assigned to specific thing so if you reload you don't have extra roll, at most you can backtrack your choice, also it should have some range rather then all or nothing, lock that is average in difficulty = lost of 5 to 10 lock picks rather then complete success or complete failure, and it if is much to complex for you then you can't even try (or rather have option with 100% failure, and only lost of lockpicks).

Im sorry. Im just really happy today. I get obnoxious that way. Btw, Its RPG Codex. Im here for the lulz and the depressing feeling I get from the News.

The problem I have is this: If you have 2 quests the first one require 50 science and the other 80 science. On first playthrough one invests 55 into science during the course of the game, thus being able to do the first mentioned quest. Right. All is well.

The next time you play you decide to make your skill a little higher, say 75. What has changed between 55 and 75 APART from the number indicating the skill level? Nothing. You still don't get to do the second quest since your skill level is still too low. So you wasted the 20 distributed skillpoints and here you are thinking something has changed, when it has not.

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How do you know that nothing changed? There may be quests with something inbetween? See what you wrote yourself later. The most simple, top of the head, alternative would be that every skillpoint, level, number would garantied give you something to do with it. Personaly, I dont like it. No guessing - could be boring.

So what you're saying is that the reason why I would place 8 extra skill points in a skill, is cause it's cool? And maybe for the fact that it may grant you the ability to do some extra quest out there?

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Yes. Thats how you explore the game. You pick something you like/want and see what happens.
Now what you wanted to ask/share is, if this is necessary design wise. That is a question for a dude who likes design, I just give my 2 cents. I dont even know if there is literature about what already been done. I mean, there is a sticky in the subforum but who reads that shit.

It's easy to say that if you have 100 skillpoints in science you'd be able to do lotsa calculations, but that does not translate well into a game. How would you abstract science at 0, 1, 2, 3, ... 100?

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Well, you do it just like that 1-100. And set some queries in your quests for values you think are good. I mean, shooting works the same. The abstraction is still an abstraction that has almost nothing to do with real world. Except maybe that the designer and you share the same views about how many science points it requires to operate a terminal or hit a can from 100 yards.

Big Nose George said:

How do you know that nothing changed? There may be quests with something inbetween? See what you wrote yourself later. The most simple, top of the head, alternative would be that every skillpoint, level, number would garantied give you something to do with it. Personaly, I dont like it. No guessing - could be boring.

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What is the fun in mindless guessing? It is mechanics that is not shown to you you can't know that it need 80 not 75. You want to play with characters that differ by few points in the same skills with few% chance that it will change anything?

That just make the game unbalanced for no reason. Just make split it into 5 or so ranks, and each will have programmed checks for it. The only difference is that now you have better information on what you are choosing it makes choices more interesting.

Droog White Smile said:

I mean, did anyone of you guys discover that you can blow up the radscorpion cave on your own?

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No interest in the rest of this thread, but yeah, I really did, in my first playthrough when the game was new. I even considered the idea of collapsing the cave with explosives before I found the hint about it using the "look" command in the cave. Adventure games were more mainstream back then and you thought of that kind of stuff while playing a video game.

Now when you're holding an RPG's jewel case you know you're playing a game targeted exclusively for autistics and any act of imagination is a waste of time.

Also, this is how the "Get a score of X in skill Y, solve a quest" RPG looks when you strip all of the fluff off the core gameplay flowchart:

Find new quest
If current stats > stats to solve quest:
Solve quest, use (lewt, XP, money, etc) to increase current stats then
Find new quest
If current stats < stats to solve quest:
Find new quest

Repeat until the game ends. That's literally all there is to it. Combat in RPGs is the same dynamic, but the completely puerile core is slightly obfuscated by randomness and rote single player "strategy" on the margins.

What is the fun in mindless guessing? It is mechanics that is not shown to you you can't know that it need 80 not 75. You want to play with characters that differ by few points in the same skills with few% chance that it will change anything?
That just make the game unbalanced for no reason. Just make split it into 5 or so ranks, and each will have programmed checks for it. The only difference is that now you have better information on what you are choosing it makes choices more interesting.

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What is the fun in mindless guessing?

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Guessing is a wrong word. Its more of a risk management, investment so to say. With no 100% guaranteed returns. Like "Outdoorsman" for example. =P

It is mechanics that is not shown to you you can't know that it need 80 not 75.

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Again, size of the numbers doesnt matter except maybe when they go to unimaginable heights. Its the percentage thats important. And you still know that your skill was to low to pass the check. If you have a second chance to repeat it, and want to, dont increase it by 5 out of 100 points. If you have unlimited tries, increase by one...

You want to play with characters that differ by few points in the same skills with few% chance that it will change anything?

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I certainly would not. I would invest according to the game rules. 100 max, increase by 10 or something similar.

That just make the game unbalanced for no reason.

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Think about that again.

Just make split it into 5 or so ranks, and each will have programmed checks for it. The only difference is that now you have better information on what you are choosing it makes choices more interesting.

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How does it make choosing more interesting? Questdesign makes it interesting. Not choosing between increasing from 1/5 to 2/5 or from 20/100 to 40/100...

Zomg said:

Also, this is how the "Get a score of X in skill Y, solve a quest" RPG looks when you strip all of the fluff off the core gameplay flowchart:

Find new quest
If current stats > stats to solve quest:
Solve quest, use (lewt, XP, money, etc) to increase current stats then
Find new quest
If current stats < stats to solve quest:
Find new quest

Repeat until the game ends. That's literally all there is to it. Combat in RPGs is the same dynamic, but the completely puerile core is slightly obfuscated by randomness and rote single player "strategy" on the margins.

Click to expand...

Thank you Captain Obvious, here, have a rock. :ROCK:

Kraszu said:

Grunker said:

Nope. Use no fixed values (such as "from 1 to 100" or "from 1 to 20", base skills off of core attributes and training (spent points). Roll 3d6 to determine success.

Every system that wants to emulate reality in the most simple way, yet make room for evolution and complexity on all fronts, should utilize this system

Click to expand...

That system suck, it just make you use your repair/lockpick skill over, and over till you get good roll, you would have to loose something signification with each try to make it a real choice. You could for example loose expensive parts that may be of limited supply first your character would asses difficulty, and then you would decide if you want to risk the part, of lockpick.

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What does what you're saying have to do with my example? GURPS utilizes the system I wrote, with an average spread, and doesn't suffer in the least from your example. Did I indicate multiple rolls for the same check was allowed? Nope. That's entirely up to either the respective skill, a general non-allow rule in the system, or whatever you feel like.

Why it works: It allows for no fixed stats that have to be explained by meta-thinking numbers into real traits, it allows for an eternal evolution both backwards and forwards within the numbers, and it gives and average spread with room for a bit of randomness for the sake of emulating different brain- and coordination reactions.

The perfect rulesystem is, of course, impossible, but I find no reason to debate endlessly how to do so-called "realism" best, when GURPS has spent years and even had the backing of scientists to facilitate a rule-surrounding that emulates realism yet is actually possible to play.

Big Nose George said:

I certainly would not. I would invest according to the game rules. 100 max, increase by 10 or something similar.

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So you don't really use 1-100 system but 1-10 system when you plan.

That just make the game unbalanced for no reason.

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Big Nose George said:

Think about that again.

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Just make split it into 5 or so ranks, and each will have programmed checks for it. The only difference is that now you have better information on what you are choosing it makes choices more interesting.

Click to expand...

Big Nose George said:

How does it make choosing more interesting? Questdesign makes it interesting. Not choosing between increasing from 1/5 to 2/5 or from 20/100 to 40/100...

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I just don't trust designers to make enough checks with so big distributions, if you have only 5 lvls then the situation is clear to you, you know that each has programmed checks but if you have 200 points then you don't know if 20/100 is any diferent then 25/200 etc, and when you give 20 points at once the check may be in between like 25.

It makes choosing more interesting becouse you have better information.

What's wrong with big numbers? It's all about balance in the end.
Big numbers of course give more freedom of character development and skill rolls as it makes system more flexible especially for longer games where 20 and 30 in X skill will make a difference and you can give player more skill points per "level" (like it's in Fallout where thanks to that each level makes a difference while not making your character imbalanced) instead of 1 like in Arcanum where character progression was very slow and unnoticeable on the next level. Oh and your skills were from 1 to 5.

You know the term 'playing your own way"? And 'jack-of-all-trade' compared to "master of his field"?

If you invested skills across the board, of course your experience would be different from narrowed, focused, master. or are you saying that invest 5 points in a skill is the same as invest 20 points?

As for your question regarding to "how the hell do I know invest 75 is better than 50": YOU DONT! It's called playing the game and enjoy the unknown factor. It's called incentive for replays. Hell, it's called incentive for reading walkthrough. You do that optimizing skill investment shit when you play the game about 2-3 times, when you know which quest is hard, which is easy, or after you read a comprehensive walkthrough and want to follow it to the letters. Heck, it's the style of play called powergaming/minmaxing.

The philosophy behind 100 points level of a skill is to remove (almost entirely) the random factor in gameplay. In DnD, you roll dice until your chance come up, and in game it just lead to save/reload. Now you know that 75 is no way to achieve that groin-crushing hammer strike and save/reload doesnt help you much if at all, and you better level up to invest 10+ points into that skill. In a way, that 100 scale also show your maturity as a game character. Look at a 120 pt Gambler you know this bugger is one serious player who dedicated his time and sweats into something called gambling skills and perks. Clear?

One reason why RPG is RPG is the idea of character maturation in term of skills. If that idea ever be removed, you will get an adventure/ twitch shooter / puzzle mindgame.

Big Nose George said:

Or let's assume that a quest requires your character to have a Science Skill of say 200 to hack a computer, and that you are now at 100. How will you as a player know that you will need to reach 200 to hack this PC?

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He wouldnt you dimwit. He would just fucking create a character stereotype and just go along with the flow of the game. Cant complete a quest, though luck, move on!

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Let's say you want a specific set of skills, but whenever you encounter a quest that can be solved using them, youre always a point or two short, so you'll never get the feeling those skills do anything for you. Some games let you know if your skill was too low, which is frustrating, but not knowing it all makes you wonder if they are ever used at all.
The best solution would be success at different grades. Ex: Low lockpicking might require more picks, at really low levels you'll break the lock open, but the sound would alert guards or something.

Kraszu said:

Big Nose George said:

I certainly would not. I would invest according to the game rules. 100 max, increase by 10 or something similar.

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So you don't really use 1-100 system but 1-10 system when you plan.

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You could say that. But I dont usually plan something. I just pump whatever I think might be interesting.

I just don't trust designers to make enough checks with so big distributions, if you have only 5 lvls then the situation is clear to you, you know that each has programmed checks but if you have 200 points then you don't know if 20/100 is any diferent then 25/200 etc, and when you give 20 points at once the check may be in between like 25.

It makes choosing more interesting becouse you have better information.

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See, its depended on the developer, not the size of the number...