Teh horror: MCA doesn't think moral choices are important!

Hümmelgümpf · Jun 1, 2008

Brand new interview at have been posted by the man himself at Obsidian forums.

Do you consider moral choices in games to be an important aspect of game design? If so, why?

Chris Avellone said:
I don't think it's important.

Read it all here.

Lumpy · Jun 1, 2008

I luv what u did thar.

elander_ · Jun 1, 2008

Looks like Avellone is into choices and consequences. There are many types of choices as well as consequences. You don't have to restrict yourself to moral ones. In that sense i agree these are not better or worse than other choices. It all depends on how well you implement whatever you are thinking of doing.

What do you think (in an ideal case) should be the consequences game-wise of a moral decision made by the player in the game? (for example: branching plotline, different reward/penalty, story related or functional character development, NPC-PC relationship development)
All of your examples would be appropriate. The most important thing is that the world react to the choice, and the player sees the consequences of the action.

Vaarna_Aarne · Jun 1, 2008

Smart as always. I'd be interested if Todd Howard was asked the same questions... The answers would be definately lulzy.

thesheeep · Jun 1, 2008

Lumpy said:
I luv what u did thar.

Agreed

fastpunk · Jun 1, 2008

Good stuff! Thanks for pointing this out, Lestat.

Jaime Lannister · Jun 1, 2008

"Fallout 1 and Mass Effect come to mind. In Fallout 1, part of the dilemma in retrieving the water chip for your home has the potential to cause another community to be extinguished. This ultimately doesn't have the impact it could because you have the ability to save both, but it's a choice that makes you pause for a moment, since your choice can condemn one civilization or another to death."

I like how he fails to mention that they are ghouls.

Lumpy · Jun 1, 2008

Jaime Lannister said:
"Fallout 1 and Mass Effect come to mind. In Fallout 1, part of the dilemma in retrieving the water chip for your home has the potential to cause another community to be extinguished. This ultimately doesn't have the impact it could because you have the ability to save both, but it's a choice that makes you pause for a moment, since your choice can condemn one civilization or another to death."

I like how he fails to mention that they are ghouls.

I am apathetic to how he fails to mention that they are ghouls. I don't see how it would be relevant in the context.

Chefe · Jun 1, 2008

It was a good interview, and he said some great stuff, but action speak louder than words, and so far the majority of the choices he's presented have been clear cut black and white moral ones.

Edward_R_Murrow · Jun 1, 2008

There's several moments in Mass Effect where I had to pause before making a choice because the game had done an excellent job of painting what the consequences of each action could be

Maybe I'm just an extreme cynic, which would be highly likely, but I can't understand how Avellone of all people would think this. If anything, you knew exactly what would happen on either side, and in some cases, it would be a no-brainer.

Oh yeah, and spoilers ahead...

Take for instance the choice between disabling the spore-hypnotized colonists and gunning them down. They never give you any doubt as to the fact that saving them is the "better" method. The game does not place any doubts that the incapacitation method will work, and that the colonists won't do something crazy. Basically this choice boils down to doing the obviously right thing, or being a dick and garnering massive Renegade points.

Much the same thing with the Rachni queen. The game doesn't place any doubt that the queen will stay true to her word. It's basically the same thing as before, do the right thing, or be an ass for more renegade points.

A lot of the smaller choices have potential I suppose, though it didn't work for me, seeing as I know it's far beyond Bioware's scope to have meaningful consequences in these.

Vaarna_Aarne · Jun 1, 2008

He just isn't above for kissing ass for cheap fanboy points, I think.

Ander Vinz · Jun 1, 2008

Re: Teh horror: MCA doesn't think moral choices are importan

Lestat said:
Chris Avellone said:

I don't think it's important.

Click to expand...

Chris Avellone said:
At the risk of being quoted out of context, I don't think it's important. I think that the player should have difficult choices to make and moral choices are one of the best ways to present it, but the most important thing from a role-playing game standpoint is that there be reactivity and consequence to your actions, whether they are moral choices are not.

Don't do that again.

spacemoose · Jun 1, 2008

verily MCA is the last prophet

tunguska · Jun 2, 2008

More proof, if any were needed, that MCA is in fact "beyond good and evil". As a living God it is hard for us to judge His choices and consequences. But soon The Way shall be revealed to The Faithful. [lights candle] Let us all pray for the safe return of the great RPG that will unite us all as brothers and as only our Father, The beloved MCA, can deliver. [bows, deeply] [bows deeply yet again]. Forever shall he reign supreme! The greatest of all Gods in the Heavens! Only in the MCA shall we all find salvation! Speak thou not against The Lord MCA for He will waste not His great wisdom upon such false demons, such foul shadows of doubt and distrust. May He take great mercy upon us all and produceth a tale of such utter power and depth that we should all lose our lives in its embrace and welcome the great world to which only He can lead us. Amen. [blows out candle]

MetalCraze · Jun 2, 2008

Edward_R_Murrow said:
There's several moments in Mass Effect where I had to pause before making a choice because the game had done an excellent job of painting what the consequences of each action could be

Click to expand...

Maybe I'm just an extreme cynic, which would be highly likely, but I can't understand how Avellone of all people would think this. If anything, you knew exactly what would happen on either side, and in some cases, it would be a no-brainer.

yet there's no choice of killing your companions it seems.

I've heard Mass Effect has this Wrex and it's a biggest Bioware failure among characters there. and because of this Drew Karpyshyn has to be raped in the a.

I mean Wrex' race was infected with a virus by turians that makes his race die.
now do you think it caused them to go and rape those turians back?
or do you think they immediately tried to find a cure?
fat chance, bitch.
the guys said - ok and continued to work as mercenaries totally not caring about this small problem that kills off their whole fucking race.

what the fuck? how those retards didn't die because of stupidity earlier and manage even to travel in space? some nice writing there, Bioware.

Fat Dragon · Jun 2, 2008

skyway said:
Edward_R_Murrow said:

There's several moments in Mass Effect where I had to pause before making a choice because the game had done an excellent job of painting what the consequences of each action could be

Click to expand...

Maybe I'm just an extreme cynic, which would be highly likely, but I can't understand how Avellone of all people would think this. If anything, you knew exactly what would happen on either side, and in some cases, it would be a no-brainer.

Click to expand...

yet there's no choice of killing your companions it seems.

I've heard Mass Effect has this Wrex and it's a biggest Bioware failure among characters there. and because of this Drew Karpyshyn has to be raped in the a.

I mean Wrex' race was infected with a virus by turians that makes his race die.
now do you think it caused them to go and rape those turians back?
or do you think they immediately tried to find a cure?
fat chance, bitch.
the guys said - ok and continued to work as mercenaries totally not caring about this small problem that kills off their whole fucking race.

what the fuck? how those retards didn't die because of stupidity earlier and manage even to travel in space? some nice writing there, Bioware.

The Krogans were a dumb choice for a species to begin with. They're the Proud Warrior Race guys that have been done to death in stories. They're like Mandalorians but only dumber. I hated them and i was very happy when

Shepherd blew Wrex's fucking brains out all over the beach.

MetalCraze · Jun 2, 2008

he did? wow. that's so un-biowarish. but the game now gains a +1 point in my eyes actually.

Fat Dragon · Jun 2, 2008

skyway said:
he did? wow. that's so un-biowarish. but the game now gains a +1 point in my eyes actually.

Hate to burst your bubble but that only happens if you don't do Wrex's side quest. If you did the quest, you

miss the chance to kill the bastard because he respects and trusts you too much for helping him so he won't try to turncoat.

One of the very few examples of c&c in ME.

aries202 · Jun 3, 2008

As I understand it from all the prehype & extrahype for Mass Effect, you will decide

which one of you teammates lives or dies. You will also decide ehat to with a certian factory that has a cure foir the disease with ehich Wrex is infected.

.

And yes, that seems very a typical of Bioware, but maybe working with Atari and Lucas Arts did out some restraints on the whole narrative way of telling a story

:

edit:

What are moral choices anyway ? Doing good things will net you good points and doing bad things will ned you bad boy points? Or something like that? I think it is time that we maybe tried to get passed the D&D alignments of Good&Evil (moral) choices. I hate to do this, but let's take a well known Nazi Doctor, say Josef Mengele. What he did we deem to be evil today, but in the 1930's and 1940's this was how medicine was done - at least when we talk medical reseach. Josef Mengele (not that I agree with him, though) thought to himself (probably) that he was doing something good: He experimented on one human being in order to alleviate the suffering of the manu human beings that had several types of diseases. In another timeframe, Mengele would be a hero. Or take the Danish Nobel Prize Laurateate, Jens Christian Schou. His discovery of the calcium-natrium pump? in the cells, required (or meant) the deaths of quite a few dogs...(meaning many dogs). Is Jens Christan Schou evil ? Or did he do what he had to do in order to faciltate and alleviate his research?

I like MCA's take on the c&c thing. Let the player do what he wants, but let him also know that there will be consequences...

Chefe · Jun 3, 2008

Just because you "think" you're doing something good doesn't make it good. Speaking of famous Nazis, I don't think Hitler woke up in the morning saying "I wonder how evil I should be today!"

This should be common sense.

spiwak · Jun 3, 2008

aries202 said:
I like MCA's take on the c&c thing. Let the player do what he wants, but let him also know that there will be consequences...

Agreed. What I don't like too too much are clear-cut distinctions between good and evil as though there are only two ways to be. This was my problem with KotOR - you were either the paragon of truth and justice or evil incarnate. I like shades of grey and all that shit, and consequences that manifest themselves in context, such as NPCs that won't talk to you now, or something like that. I don't want to be hammered with the developer's view of morality, but I do want choice.

BearBomber · Jun 3, 2008

I dont like moral choices because in most games you can only choose between King Arthur and Stalin.

Texas Red · Jun 3, 2008

BearBomber said:
I dont like moral choices because in most games you can only choose between King Arthur and Stalin.

Which one of them is the bag guy response?

*derails thread in to Russia vs West argument*

BearBomber · Jun 3, 2008

Stalin is a bad guy because he teams with ugly people. In cRPG you have to look nice to be good.

Lesifoere · Jun 4, 2008

BearBomber said:
I dont like moral choices because in most games you can only choose between King Arthur and Stalin.

King Arthur knowingly sleeps with another man's wife and at one point orders the massacre of all babies born in the same year as Mordred.

Teh horror: MCA doesn't think moral choices are important!

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