Ultima 8: Pagan. The good, the bad, and the ugly

I've been a long time fan of the Ultima series. Like most fans, I used to think that that atrocity Ultima Ascension was the game which destroyed the series. But upon playing Ultima 8: Pagan, I've changed my mind.

That's right, I'm going to say it flat out, Ultima 8: Pagan sucks ass. It sucks ass hard, and in some aspects it is inferior to Ultima 9, which I think is just a fucking embarassment for any U8 fans out there. Ultima 7: Serpent Isle was the last truly innovative game in the Ultima series, a shining star before the two gaming holocausts that came after it.

Allow me to explain:

The biggest problem with Ultima 8 is that it's boring. I quickly lost interest in the game several years ago, and hid it away unnoticed till a couple of months ago. Upon rediscovering it, I decided I'd perserve and complete it. Thankfully this wasn't a complete waste of time, since now I'm capable of justifying why it's such a piece of shit, without uptight assholes whining 'That's not an argument, you haven't play the entire game so you can't comment, bla bla bla'.

But let's start on a positive note:

The Good:

I actually thought that Origin was quite innovative in departing from Brittania and placing the Avatar in an alien world, where he's often needed to compromise his virtues in order to return to home. To be honest, I was getting a little tired of Britannia and the Avatar's companions. It's a pity that Ultima Ascension reverted to the same old 'cleanse the shrines, save Britannia, bla bla bla' while conveniently neglecting to mention how the Avatar totally fucked up Pagan in order to return home.

The graphics and sound were actually quite good for their time as well, IMHO, and I never encountered any game stopping bugs, which is perhaps what sets this game apart from that buggy piece of garbage Ultima Ascension.

The Bad:

There were several things which annoyed me about this game but didn't think were game breaking. I quickly got sick of looking at my gimp of a PC, wearing his bucket helmet and clown like costume. I would much rather have had a scantily dressed chick as my PC (think the Empress of Time from Prince of Persia: Warrior Within...) The trapped chests were a total pain in the ass, especially since not one chest in the game held anything which was really worth salvaging. And why were there 'Trap Detection' and 'Trap Destruction' scrolls? I mean, why bother wasting time and money detecting a trap, when you can just go straight ahead and destroy it with Trap Destruction, which is a far more abundant scroll?

I also hated the voice acting. 98% of the game did not have voice acting, so why did they feel it was necessary to have unsubbed and incomprehensible voice acting for the remaining 2%? I had no idea whatsoever what Hydros was saying, and if it wasn't for a walkthrough, would have been stumped about how to proceed.

The Ugly (scroll to the end if you think my rant is too long... I've got a summary):

Boy, where do I start?

Well, as I mentioned earlier, the game is just minding numbingly boring, catatonia inducing boring, aneurism bursting boring. Why is this?

The most obvious culprit is the combat system. The combat system in Ultima 8 is the most unwieldly and dull I have seen in an RPG, ever. It consists of simply rapidly clicking the left mouse button, and hoping to God that eventually one of your hits will connect. Zombies can take 8-9 hits from even the strongest of the non-enchanted weapons, and that's not including the 8 or 9 hits which won't connect. I still find it unbelievable how you can hack away when the enemy is right on top of you, and continue missing while your life blood is draining away. And the block feature just doesn't work.

Moving around is combat is slow. If you want to run from an enemy, there is a huge delay where the Avatar continues moving in his 'combat (slow)' stance for a few seconds, then a couple of seconds where he sheathes his sword, and then finally starts accelarating to break into a full run. This clumsy movement system doesn't just apply to combat though, the camera angle and the shitty navigation mechanisms make it hell to navigate narrow, windy spaces. Especially when running from an enemy.

The 'projectile' weapons are just laughable. Oil flasks and those exploding gems do bugger all damage, a little cross keeps appearing when you attempt to throw them at many areas of the map, and they rarely hit their target when thrown. Death disks are the only missile weapon that come even close to be user friendly, but they are still as weak as piss and scattered few and far between. Ultima has consistently had kick ass missile weapons since Ultima 1, so why did Origin change this?

The enemies in U8 are generic and boring. Zombies, skeletons (which keep reforming despite me killing them with an enchanted weapon, meaning that I have to waste time fighting them again. *sigh*), ghosts which might as well have just have continued on their journey to the afterlife. It's nice to see that they continued the tradition of having the player fight boring enemies in U9.

So to summarise, combat simply involves about a minute of clicky clicky, and praying that you kill the generic guy before he kills you. And it's a totally worthless endeavour, you have nothing to show for it at the end but cuts and bruises. Enemies never have anything of worth, and you never gain any levels.

And I can hear you saying "Yeah, well hare, what about augmenting yourself with spells?"

Good call Schatner, but I'm well ahead of you, as that brings me to the next observation. Despite all the praise rimming fans give the 'imaginative' spell system, I find it to be a huge time waster, and an overall pain in the ass.

For necromancy, you need to have a bag set apart for your spell making. So you hunt through your pack (which is in a total shambles by the way, something which Ultima 9 improved on, thank god) to find the reagants for the spell you need, if you can remember them (or have written them down somewhere, hence wasting more time).
You then drag them to the bag. You then use the key of the caretaker to create the spell. You then use the little icon to cast the spell. Meanwhile, enemies continue hacking at you as you bumble around in your pack like a Down Syndrome sufferer.

Fuck! How the hell is that practical in any sense of the word? By the time you've constructed a 'Grant Peace' spell to blast a skeleton piece of shit into oblivion, your ass is grass. Now I have a new appreciation for Ultima 9's spell system, where you could actually place spells in your quick slots for an instant casting.

And yeah, yeah, you could prepare the spells prior to the encounter, but how would you know which spells you need? 90% of the necromancy spells are friggen useless, and you really have no idea when or if you'll need a grant peace or rock skin spell. I guess you could prepare heaps of each spell prior to an encounter, but I don't want to waste my time with that menial garbage, especially when I probably won't need it. I mean, I'm not friggen clairvoyant.

And don't even get me started on Sorcery. They not only ask you to place the correct coloured candles, but also the reagants. And even when you place the reagants in the correct spot, the game doesn't recognise them as correctly placed. Gee, why didn't they also get you to the draw the pentagram in an MSPaint like program, it would have been just as appropriate, just as exciting, and wasted just as much of my precious time.

And as I mentioned earlier, most of the spells are redundant. Why on earth would you cast Explosion or Flame Bolt in a combat situation? Withstand Death? Summon Daemon? Confusion Blast? Summon Creature? Summon Undead? Aura of Flames? I mean, sure, there are redundant spells in every RPG, including the previous Ultimas, but not this many, and at least you don't have to spend literally minutes of your time preparing and casting them.

The fact that combat is so boring and unrewarding, and spell casting such an utter pain in the ass, resulted in me taking the quick and clean route. Running. The AI in Pagan is retarded beyond belief (that includes the golem, which never goes where I tell it to), and there is nothing I can't beat with my two clown like feet. I only fought in melee with one enemy throughout the whole game, the Master Sorcerer, and it was easy as 'Click click click click click' (I had flame sting by then, which shortened combat time significantly).

But do you know what's the worst thing about the spell-combat aspect? After acquiring a decent weapon, after gaining a full complement of spells, after leveling up and getting a hang of the combat system, you go to encounter the Titans.

"All right, it's time to kick ass in 4 totally cataclysmic battles with 4 demi-gods!" you're silently hoping, although your faith in this shit game has been shaken.

You realize that your blind faith in Origin was foolish. You don't need to fight the Titans. They don't have kickass powers. In fact, you exert more effort reaching them than actually fighting them. All that's required to destroy the Titans is to drain them with their respective blackrock piece.

How anticlimatic is that? No, seriously, that's the worst end boss battle in existence. I've taken dumps which were more exciting, and produced better results, than facing those stuttering morons, and I'm not talking about data dumps. They should have just shown the Titans taking a huge crap and had you scoop it into a Titan sized doggy bag after them, it would have been just as fulfilling.

The characterisations in Ultima 8 are one dimensional and weak, the plot just falls down after 30 minutes of play. The dungeons all look the same, and don't continue any characters or items which make them worth exploring. Every magical weapon is a glowing piece of shit which has no noticable 'special' effect, except for perhaps the Protector and Flame Sting. Pack rats will find this game a grave disappointment, the items in general are garbage.

What also makes my blood boil is that in order to reach Argentrock Isle and Daemon's Cove, you need to stumble around blindly in the Catacombs/Stone Cove with NO guidance whatsoever. Wandering about is bad enough, but when the environment you are wandering about in is generic and stale, it gets tiresome quickly. A map for the Catacombs would have been nice, although a walkthrough sufficed for me. And why the hell do you need to Key of Scion to access those two places? That hardly makes sense.

The jumping also had me gritting my teeth. Why include a jump feature in the game, when you can't access most places within reach anyway? Also, why doesn't the Avatar JUMP WHERE I TELL HIM TO? Is he a fucking retard?! I've lost count of the number of times the Avatar jumped, missed (despite my perfect targeting) and fell into lava or water, meaning I have to endure the excessive reload time. If you're going to include jumping puzzles in the game, the least you could do is ensure that the jump feature is user friendly, right? My stomach literally churned when I was told to make 'The leap of faith' at Argentrock. I don't even trust the Avatar to make a simple jump from two platforms a couple of feet apart, and you want me to jump OFF THE SCREEN?!

It's nice to see that they actually fixed this in Ultima 9, where you can jump everywhere and anywhere with perfect precision. Hell, they fixed it so well, you can jump over the mountains separating Britain and Yew, hence breaking the game plot *clap clap*.

But to summarize my main gripes with this game:

- Boring, repetitive and clumsy combat system.

- User unfriendly movement system.

- Boring generic enemies which yield nothing worthwhile in the way of experience or treasure.

- Boring dungeons which yield nothing in the way of decent treasure.

- Lack of decent projectile weapons.

- Finicky, time consuming and impractical spell system.

- Numerous spells are redundant.

- NPCs in the game lack depth.

- Confrontation with the Titans at the end of the game is anti-climatic.


So I do so boldly assert that the Ultima franchise peaked at U7: Serpent Isle, and took a massive turn for the worse come U8. Ultima 8 was what ensured that when U9 hit the stage and was a complete flop, nobody was really that surprised/

So... let me get this straight. First you complain about having to fight generic and boring undead - repeatedly. You really make it sound like a common occurrance.
Afterwards, you complain that you don't want to prepare a spell that could kill these undead in advance because you don't know if you'll need it.

Sorry, I am just having a hard time taking you seriously.

So I'm going to create 100 Grant Peace spells to blast 100 zombies? Why the fuck would I do that? Do I gain XP from it? Items? Gold? Satisfaction? And I might know now in hindsight that there would be a shitload of zombies, but at a particular point in time, I wasn't aware that I'd be fighting them from beginning to end.

Goddamit, man. It isn't *that* tedious. Me and a couple of my friends played the game through all the way to the near end, without knowing more than a few words of english! I figured the sorcery thing out by looking at the example given to you! One guy performs a spell so you understand how to do it. Then you look up in a book the reagents needed for a spell and place them correctly, and then light the candles in the correct order. Its a very long time since I last played the game, but I figure that's how it went.

Heh, we got to the cave in the sorcery area, but accidentally killed the person you are supposed to talk to and saved afterwards. Last save before that was ages away.

It's not that bad. You get the Call Destruction spell sometime in the game which kills everything. If you don't, Summon Demon is actually the only decent summoning spell in the game.

And having to prepare necromancy spell in advance is a stupid complaint. If you can't figure out that having some Grant Peace spells handy might come in useful, well...
It's not that tedious anyway, since you can prepare several spells of the same type at one time. And you do get intelligence skill ups after a while, so yes, you sort of get XP.

Kingston:

Goddamit, man. It isn't *that* tedious.

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I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you on that one.

Me and a couple of my friends played the game through all the way to the near end, without knowing more than a few words of english! I figured the sorcery thing out by looking at the example given to you! One guy performs a spell so you understand how to do it. Then you look up in a book the reagents needed for a spell and place them correctly, and then light the candles in the correct order. Its a very long time since I last played the game, but I figure that's how it went.

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Yes, you're told that you have to endure a test. So you pretty much figure that you'll need to possess all of the Sorcery spells. In hindsight, you don't. But who can blame me for thinking that? I mean, if you're going to sit an exam, you don't just study half of the lecture content. You study it all.

In the U8 sense, 'studying all the lecture material' means that you need to:

1. Memorize the points on the pentagram, or keep having that Bane bitch show you each time you cast a spell.

2. Find all the relevant spellbooks and carry them in your already overflowing backpack.

3. Find the relevant symbols and reagants.

4. Place the correct candles at the correct points on the pentagram for each spell.

5. Place the correct reagants at the correct points on the pentagram for each spell. This is the most frustrating, as even if you place them correctly, the game doesn't always register it.

Now, I can do all of the above. I'm not an imbecile. But I'm contending that it isn't worth the time and effort. That menial 'remember, fetch and carry' sort of shit is for grade school, not a computer game. And the Flame Walk and Flash spells can be found pre-prepared, and the rest of the spells aren't necessary, except for a couple in the trials. As I already explained, using attack spells against monsters in this game is pointless, because they do shit all damage, and you don't gain anything of worth from killing monsters anyway.

Heh, we got to the cave in the sorcery area, but accidentally killed the person you are supposed to talk to and saved afterwards. Last save before that was ages away.

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Bah. I got stuck in Lithos' hall, because for some reason the teleport pad at Mythran's house didn't trigger. So I had to start the game all over again.

Ammar:

It's not that bad. You get the Call Destruction spell sometime in the game which kills everything. If you don't, Summon Demon is actually the only decent summoning spell in the game.

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Yeah, the Call Destruction spell kicks ass. It's just too bad that nobody told me in the game that you only need to use to reagants once to charge the spellbook, so it has unlimited charges. The Summon Demon spell takes to much dicking about to prepare, and there are only a few demon symbols in the game.

And having to prepare necromancy spell in advance is a stupid complaint. If you can't figure out that having some Grant Peace spells handy might come in useful, well...

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So I should sit about preparing Grant Peace spells in advance, because a ghost or skeleton 'might' box me in?

I'm not saying that your strategy is shit. In fact, given the context of Ultima 8, it's quite smart. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be such a chore to begin with. Why the fuck have players waste their time with such tedium? Why not just ditch the shitty spell system and use a more user friendly version?

mountain hare said:

In the U8 sense, 'studying all the lecture material' means that you need to:

1. Memorize the points on the pentagram, or keep having that Bane bitch show you each time you cast a spell.

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True, although it's also described in a book.

2. Find all the relevant spellbooks and carry them in your already overflowing backpack.

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I'd just copy the relevant points on a piece of paper. Or print out the same thing in the internet. Same applies to 1. when I think about it.

3. Find the relevant symbols and reagants.

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Never had any problems with reagants for sorcery. There are at least two places in game that have lots of reagents : the library and the second room in the Fortress.

4. Place the correct candles at the correct points on the pentagram for each spell.

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Yes.

5. Place the correct reagants at the correct points on the pentagram for each spell. This is the most frustrating, as even if you place them correctly, the game doesn't always register it.

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Happened seldom to me but it does happen.

Bah. I got stuck in Lithos' hall, because for some reason the teleport pad at Mythran's house didn't trigger. So I had to start the game all over again.

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Uh, you can walk out of there you know. There's actually a teleporter that takes you right back to the entrance.

So I should sit about preparing Grant Peace spells in advance, because a ghost or skeleton 'might' box me in?

I'm not saying that your strategy is shit. In fact, given the context of Ultima 8, it's quite smart. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be such a chore to begin with. Why the fuck have players waste their time with such tedium? Why not just ditch the shitty spell system and use a more user friendly version?

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Well, I can understand disliking sorcery but as I said you can prepare large amounts of Necromancy spells in a short time. Don't see it as more tedious than changing your prepared spells in BG or PS:T.

Ammar said:

mountain hare said:

In the U8 sense, 'studying all the lecture material' means that you need to:

1. Memorize the points on the pentagram, or keep having that Bane bitch show you each time you cast a spell.

Click to expand...

True, although it's also described in a book.

2. Find all the relevant spellbooks and carry them in your already overflowing backpack.

Click to expand...

I'd just copy the relevant points on a piece of paper. Or print out the same thing in the internet. Same applies to 1. when I think about it.

3. Find the relevant symbols and reagants.

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Never had any problems with reagants for sorcery. There are at least two places in game that have lots of reagents : the library and the second room in the Fortress.

4. Place the correct candles at the correct points on the pentagram for each spell.

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Yes.

5. Place the correct reagants at the correct points on the pentagram for each spell. This is the most frustrating, as even if you place them correctly, the game doesn't always register it.

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Happened seldom to me but it does happen.

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1. Sure, the pentagram is described in the book, but there is no accompanying diagram. So the description is next to useless, about as useless as anatomy textbooks without the accompanying diagrams . The only way to ensure that each point of the pentagram is correct is to ask Bane.

2. So now I need to print the 'formulae' for every spell out on a piece of paper? That's the sort of useless complexity I was bitching about in the 'Bioshock' thread, which is rife in Ultima 8. I want to enjoy playing and progressing in the game, not fiddling around with menial BS.

3. Yep, the reagants generally aren't hard to find (except Daemon bone), but it's extremely tedious to go back and forth to obtain those reagants.

4. Yes, placing the candles is yet another useless complexity.

5. It happened quite frequently to me. Quite often I needed to place the reagants on top of the candles, which makes no fucking sense.

Uh, you can walk out of there you know. There's actually a teleporter that takes you right back to the entrance.

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You are teleported back to the beginning of Lithos' hall, not the catacombs. I was walking around for about an hour before finally giving up. Remember, you enter the lower catacombs from the upper catacombs by falling through a hole, which cannot be ascended.

So I should sit about preparing Grant Peace spells in advance, because a ghost or skeleton 'might' box me in?

I'm not saying that your strategy is shit. In fact, given the context of Ultima 8, it's quite smart. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be such a chore to begin with. Why the fuck have players waste their time with such tedium? Why not just ditch the shitty spell system and use a more user friendly version?

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Well, I can understand disliking sorcery but as I said you can prepare large amounts of Necromancy spells in a short time. Don't see it as more tedious than changing your prepared spells in BG or PS:T.

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Changing your spells in BG or PS:T is user friendly, and involves two clicks. If you're playing sorcerer, it involves none. With Necromancy, you first need to locate each of the reagants in your pack (heaven help you if the spell requires blackmoor or deadman's elbow, which blends in perfectly with the background colour of your backpack), move them to the bag, double click on the key of caretaker, and click on the bag. Now rinse and repeat 10 times if you want 10 grant peace spells.

Why suffer the heartache when you can just run past the skeleton?

While it seems that a few people take issue with my criticism of the spell system in U8, nobody is commenting on my other criticisms. Does that mean that you agree with the following criticisms?

- Boring, repetitive and clumsy combat system.

- User unfriendly movement system.

- Boring generic enemies which yield nothing worthwhile in the way of experience or treasure.

- Boring dungeons which yield nothing in the way of decent treasure.

- Lack of decent projectile weapons.

- Numerous spells are redundant.

- NPCs in the game lack depth.

- Confrontation with the Titans at the end of the game is anti-climatic.

All I remember in Ultima 8 is getting drunk and wandering around town, moaning like a blues singer. (a black one)

mountain hare said:

While it seems that a few people take issue with my criticism of the spell system in U8, nobody is commenting on my other criticisms. Does that mean that you agree with the following criticisms?

- Boring, repetitive and clumsy combat system.

- User unfriendly movement system.

- Boring generic enemies which yield nothing worthwhile in the way of experience or treasure.

- Boring dungeons which yield nothing in the way of decent treasure.

- Lack of decent projectile weapons.

- Numerous spells are redundant.

- NPCs in the game lack depth.

- Confrontation with the Titans at the end of the game is anti-climatic.

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i was never interested in finishing the game, so I went into exploration. Needless to say there was nothing that interesting to do, hence U8 really failed quite hard compared to its previous installment, U7. U7 part 2 may be quite linear but the interaction and characters make up for it. U8 ....how dull. The moment I was saved by a fisherman and tried to kill him and found I couldn't I was disappointed. The spells, argh; no please. I don't want to fuck around with those pointless gatherings. Add jumping into the mix,...sigh I think I spent a few hours just robbing random houses and setting flaming oil chain explosions in the palace before I got bored.

Oh btw, skeletons are no biggy. Once you shatter 'em, take one piece of their bone and toss them to water or keep it in your backpack. IIRC, this would prevent them from reforming.

mountain hare said:

While it seems that a few people take issue with my criticism of the spell system in U8, nobody is commenting on my other criticisms. Does that mean that you agree with the following criticisms?

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About your criticism of the spell system, I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The spell system (specially sorcery and thaumaturgy) may be unwieldily for the continuous preparation, but that is not their point. In a crpg like TOEE, you can set what spells to prepare and cast them in combat quickly and easily with the provided interface. Spellcasters cast them because they provide some tactical advantage in combat. In Ultima 8, casting the spell is part of the game. It is not some arbitrary cumbersome interface, but rather a way to make magic seem less abstract and more fun.

I am not saying that you can't criticize it as a part of the game. You might say that it is a stupid or uninspired minigame. You might complain that it gets in the way of the rest of the game without meshing well with it, or you might say that problems with the positioning system made it much less fun. Personally, I thought it was one of the best parts of the game. The magic system and the fact the game doesn't rub on your face where you are supposed to go next are what made ultima 8 enjoyable to me.

mountain hare said:

- Boring, repetitive and clumsy combat system.

- User unfriendly movement system.

- Boring generic enemies which yield nothing worthwhile in the way of experience or treasure.

- Boring dungeons which yield nothing in the way of decent treasure.

- Lack of decent projectile weapons.

- Numerous spells are redundant.

- NPCs in the game lack depth.

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I don't disagree with anything here. I thought the dungeon where you fell if you tried to grab the jewels on the way to the cemetery to be fun, but just because the tomes spread throughout it. Which brings me to one point. I always liked the lore found in books spread around Ultima 8. It seems like there was a lot of potential wasted in that game. I really think a lot of content was cut somewhere along development.

Also, it bears mentioning that combat in Ultima 8 was a joke. Still it was simple enough to run away from any combat. I don't remember any forced combat on the player. They probably should have either removed combat completely or at least made it less annoying, like Ultima 7's one.

mountain hare said:

- Confrontation with the Titans at the end of the game is anti-climatic.

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Agreed, though I think the last battles should have been fought using the magic system. Something like the summoning of Pyros but more interactive. Ultima 8 was more of an adventure game than an rpg. I am glad it exists, and had quite a lot of fun with it. I played it so much I saw a bug I have never seem replicated anywhere else. However, I think it should have played its strengths better.

It would have been better without annoying twitchy gameplay, and should have taken more care with dialogue. I really liked some of the characters, like the son of the seamstress story, but the execution was too fast. You never had any opportunity to feel sorry for that character. I think that if npcs were a bit less static, they wouldn't seem so shallow. Still, it is a widely known fact this game suffered a lot of problems when in production, and if every bad rpg nowadays had some unique elements like U8 had, the crpg scene would be in much better shape, I think.

edit: Don't write when sleepy.

I think that the mechanics for the magic system sounds kind of fun. However, if the game it not balanced and it requires you to use magic constantly in order to survive, it should not make you go through all of that just to use a one-shot blasto spell.

If, on the other hand, combat wasn't so weak and the magic system was used more for problem solving than twitch combat (in most games it is the flashy equivalent of a crossbow) then I think it would be cool. The idea that you actually have to sit down and perform a ritual or do some preparations to make magic isn't de facto bad... but if you need to do it just to kill a pack of rats or something, that is a bit ridiculous. It sounds like the magic system is a bad match for the rest of the game.

You are teleported back to the beginning of Lithos' hall, not the catacombs. I was walking around for about an hour before finally giving up. Remember, you enter the lower catacombs from the upper catacombs by falling through a hole, which cannot be ascended.

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After speaking to the last undead necromancer you are back in the upper catacombs. The whole area leading to Lithos' hall is connected to the upper catacombs, not the lower ones.

Changing your spells in BG or PS:T is user friendly, and involves two clicks. If you're playing sorcerer, it involves none. With Necromancy, you first need to locate each of the reagants in your pack (heaven help you if the spell requires blackmoor or deadman's elbow, which blends in perfectly with the background colour of your backpack), move them to the bag, double click on the key of caretaker, and click on the bag.

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It's not that bad if you organize your inventory a little. It's a chore true, but it's not as bad as you say.

Now rinse and repeat 10 times if you want 10 grant peace spells.

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I've said it before : this is false. You can just place ten blackmoor and ten exectioner's hood into the bag at once and click once with the key of the caretaker on the bag.

Why suffer the heartache when you can just run past the skeleton?

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Perfectly true, but that just means you don't need to prepare as many spells which should be right to your liking.

I think you're blowing some of the criticisms out of proportion here. For instance:

- Boring, repetitive and clumsy combat system.
- Boring generic enemies which yield nothing worthwhile in the way of experience or treasure.

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So why exactly are you trying to fight everything? You don't enjoy it, and there aren't worthwhile rewards, so why bother? Most combat can be avoided by simply out running or dodging, and failing that, it's pretty trivial to find potions or cast spells that make you either invincible or invisible.

- Boring dungeons which yield nothing in the way of decent treasure.

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It's not a dungeon crawler? I definitely agree that the game is very short on interesting equipment and artifacts, but there was still enough to keep me exploring, and the pursuit of the various magics made up for the lack of physical weaponry and so forth.

- Lack of decent projectile weapons.

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I don't think this is a problem in a real-time isometric game, because projectile weapons are nearly always awkward from that perspective. And again, combat isn't really an important part of the game, so save your oil flasks for more creative use of the game physics.

- User unfriendly movement system.
- Numerous spells are redundant.
- NPCs in the game lack depth.
- Confrontation with the Titans at the end of the game is anti-climatic.

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These are all pretty valid though. The movement is awkward, and would have been a lot better if they'd allowed keyboard control, plus the jumping is hair pullingly bad. The redundant spells I can deal with, simply because they add to the flavour of the game world. The NPCs were pretty simplistic, but still streets ahead of what we get these days from the big players like Bioware and Bethesda. I'd be more inclined to criticise them for being fairly cliched tropes.

All in all, I think you have some pretty valid criticisms, but at the same time I think a lot of it comes down to it simply not being your sort of game. I loved the magic and inventory systems, and went out of my way to have an organised backpack with prepared spells easily accessible. I liked exploring in the search of artifacts that were genuine rarities. Though I think I also had the luxury of it being my first Ultima, so it meant it could never be a disappointment for me.

Try playing Ultima 8 unpatched. Ugh, what a nightmare. I remember the moving jump platforms went at a ridiculous speed unpatched.

Edit: I have been corrected by my older brother. The actual problem was that you couldn't determine the distance of jumping. The Avatar would always jump a predetermined lenght, so you had to position yourself just right when jumping or fall to your doom. After the patch it would jump to where you pointed your mouse (provided it was in range ofcourse).

I'll admit, the jumping was horrible, and movement was clumsy in general.

Still an awesome game though.

The best thing about u8 was the magic system, the story and characters, the rest of the game (combat, jumping puzzles) kind of suck, some dungeons are fun (what gets annoying is that everything looks the same and you get lost easily) and exploring can be fun depending on the player (i liked it back then, i dont think i have the patience today tho)

i didnt have any problem with the spells, i just kept a stock of the ones i used all the time, and a few reagents for the ones i used rarely (hotkeys or a quick spellbook would have been nice tho), also, sorcery has a few "infinite" focus items you can use (the blue pentagram stones if i remember correctly)

about the speech, it was a disk game, jeez, its actually surprising it has speech, if i remember correctly the game was 10 5.25 disks with a 4 disk speech expansion, its like playing pong and asking "hey, where are the AA 3d graphics with BLOOM!?!?!"

and the ending, yeah, it sucked, they obviously ran out of time, it was an early example of today's games, try MOTB and look how the game starts with incredibly detailed and beautiful areas but gets progressively simpler and with less and less detail, finishing in a quick copypaste of the nwn2 original campaign (they didnt even bother in twisting them a bit to look new)

you should try pentagram, the u8 emulator, it works pretty well, wastes less resources than dosbox, a few reported bugs here and there tho (havent noticed any the few hours i played)

Kingston said:

I remember the moving jump platforms went at a ridiculous speed unpatched.

Edit: I have been corrected by my older brother. The actual problem was that you couldn't determine the distance of jumping

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No, you were also right. Many of the platforms moved horizontally, but the patch stopped that and now they just float in place (unfortunately the patch didn't also stop those annoying rocks that rise in and out of water). The patch also introduced targeted jumps, as your brother said.

Replaying this after 16 years, I didn't play with the patch the last time. I'm also surprised how much I still can remember after 16 years.

U8 will be better if it had followed U7 and just upgraded its engine, instead, U8 seems to be heavily influenced by UW. Jumping puzzles, action combat, object physics. It also has leveling by usage, predating Daggerfall. The graphics are pretty though, wish the game was more like a single player UO.

Jaesun said:

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Just saw this ingame, made me smile. Since U7 was famous for baking bread, I guess they expended it to making spells.

Also, RG aka LB just got married incase you haven't heard.

I was quite prepared to go on the defensive against that diseased rabbit before I realised the post was over 3 years old.

Shit I wasn't even born then

This thread reminded me I miss Section8.

So fuck you Mighty Mouse for necroing this.

Jaesun said:

This thread reminded me I miss Section8.

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Dunno much about him but his response to bad combat is .

Battling Titans wouldn't make sense. It's not Baldur's Gate 2 where you are an ultra-high-level wizard.