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Combat

sheek

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Hi, Ninja what I want to ask today is what have you got for the combat system?

We already know it's FP/RT, but how would you describe it being closest to -
Oblivionish, Morrowindish, Gothicish (press a million keys at once), Thiefish (totally random swings) or is it better than any of those?

What effect will skills and stats have on your survival chances?

How are you going to create tactical depth?

How hard-coded into the engine is it?

Also, have you played Mount&Blade? It's the only FP/RT combat system I ever had fun with (most Codexers agree) and I recommend you have a look at it if you haven't already.
 

Jora

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I prefer the Mount & Blade style even if there'll be no mounted combat because that system makes it very easy to control the character's movements and do actions like parrying.

I got a new computer last week and have been playing Oblivion and the demo of Gothic 3. Both games have quite awful implementations of combat. They're too hectic and every fight quickly devolves to a clickfest. Another thing I don't like about them is that whoever hits first wins the fight.
 

sheek

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Yeah exactly.

It's difficult for a FP/RT combat system to be tactical and therefore interesting but M&B did it. I think it's due to the variety of weapons, the ability to choose swings, weapon length vs speed rating, hit-boxes (head, body, legs, arms), and that you can add power to blows... against an armored knight for example you'll have to take risks leaving yourself open to get a good hit that has any chance of penetrating armor. Do you take a shield, which will slow you down, what type of shield - a light small one, easy to use which won't protect from all blows, or a heavy large one that will last the whole battle? Do you sacrifice two slots for a bow or crossbow, or take a spear (invaluable against cavalry) and some throwing knives?

The type of 3rdP/BTS perspective is just right.

But the most important is timing. You have to learn to recognize what your opponent is going to try in the next second. If you judge timing right, you can theoretically hold your own against any enemy with any weapon. Though, stats help a lot.
 

Naked Ninja

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Hi Sheek,

Alright, to describe the combat system...I'd say it mixes something like the melee combat from an FPS with the quickbar-ability use system of an action rpg. In other words, no "move back and click your mouse to perform a disarm attack" like in Oblivion. Clicking your mouse swings your weapon, right clicking does a power attack, shift for block/parry, special attacks are activated by using your currently selected special ability from your hotbar.

(The hotbar works like this : Something like a potion is immediately drunk if you click the appropriate number key whereas a special ability or spell is "readied" for you to use by pressing a bindable key (at the moment I use the "f" key to activate abilities))

Skills and stats play a big part. You do have to be in weapon range of your target, and manually aim at them, but once you do your weapon skills play a major part.

Basically there are 3 major factors. Your attack/dodge roll which determines how well you hit, the enemies armor absorption, and stamina.

1) Attack/Dodge roll

How much damage you do is multiplied based on the difference between your attack roll and the enemies dodge roll. If you rolled much higher than him then your damage will be multiplied (and have a high chance to inflict a crit, a short term effect such as bleeding or stunning). Roll a lot lower and you will do a fraction of the weapons damage (and possible even a get a "fumble", a short term penalty to you). Since your skills/stats determine both your attack and dodge rating, skills play a major role here.

(A note for stealth attackers, a character who is unaware of you has an effective dodge rating of 0. Meaning large multipliers to damage and high crit chances. Ie, sneak attacks)

2) Armor Absorbtion roll

Once damage is determined, the enemies armor reduces that amount by a number. Note that if your attack roll is low, you will only be doing a fraction of your weapon damage so there is a good chance that a heavily armored opponent will absorb ALL the damage. Likewise, if your attack roll was very high your multiplied damage has a much better chance of not being completely absorbed by a heavily armored opponent (you're stabbed your dagger into a joint or something ;) )

There is a trade off between armor and dodge rating. Heavy armor allows you to absorb more damage but lowers your ability to dodge, hence increasing the chance that an enemy will inflict higher damage. Going unarmored means you have the highest chance of dodging blows, but when they hit there is nothing between them and your flesh.

I wanted to model the real world a bit more accurately, where having a high skill is the critical factor in how much damage you do, not purely the weapons "stats". And separating out dodging versus absorbing.

3) Stamina

Stamina plays a significant part in combat, and is important for all characters. As your stamina drops, so does your attack rating and dodge rating (and you have a chance of failing spell casting). In the case of attack rating this means you will be doing less damage, as in the above paragraph. Combat abilities require stamina so you will be less able to use them too. In the case of dodge rating this means that people will be doing you more damage.

In this way, using strategies which wear out your opponent can give you a sizable advantage. For example choosing a defensive stance and blocking/parrying until your opponent is tired and then switching to an offensive stance to finish them off quickly....


Special Traits and Abilities :

In addition to the core mechanics there are traits which modify your chances, such as skills making you tougher, making you attack faster with a certain class of weapon, etc. There are also special abilities you can use, things like Hamstring which slows your opponent, combat stances which allow you to sacrifice attack rating for greater defense, etc.


Tactical depth is something I hope to create through requiring differing strategies to overcome different opponents, and by slowing down combat a little compared to games like Oblivion so you have more of a chance to think. A heavily armored opponent will require different types of attacks to a lightly armored but high dodge character. A quick opponent might require special abilities to slow him down and stun him, a character with a high defense might need to be tired out so his defense drops, etc...I hate it when every fight for a warrior character is just spamming left-mouse and drinking potions. Booooring.


There is one idea which I haven't implemented yet but which I'm looking at. A "focus mode" like in Max Payne/Jade Empire. Where you burn stamina to slow down opponents relative to yourself. This would give you a chance to think and an advantage in combat. However it will need to be balanced so as to not be an overpowering strategy like it was in those games. Hopefully the fact that using stamina makes you less effective in combat and leaves you less stamina for powering special abilities will help there.


How hard coded into the engine is it? You won't be able to turn it into a turn based system without heavy engine modifications but for the most part the logic sits in the script files and database, which will ship with the game, so not very hard coded at all :D.

- Tweaking the balance/variables = simple.
- Altering the equations = pretty simple if you understand simple scripting.
- Altering the stats of items = simple.
- Add in more variables (so you don't like attack rating, you want to replace it with 2 other variables) = trickier since you will need to modify every creature in the database as well as modify the equations to take them into account. Still do-able.


And yes I have played Mount and Blade, I consider its combat probably the best real time combat I've played. I would love to have something like that in my game the only problem is the hit-box detection stuff. Not that hard, but also not trivial. Unfortunately I have to choose which features I can reasonably implement now and which I should put on the "Scars 2 list". That and mounted combat are probably going on the list... ;)



continued below with Weapon Stats...
 

Naked Ninja

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Weapons have a number of key statistics :

Damage : How much damage a weapon does when a solid blow is landed.

Range : The range of a weapon, for both melee and ranged weapons.

Precision : How easy it is to precisely strike at targets with this weapon. A dagger is a precise weapon, allowing its wielder to easily strike at small exposed vulnerable areas. A battleaxe is not. Dramatically effects your chances off pulling off critical strikes.

Impact : How much force a weapon strikes with, related to its mass, weight, balance and your ability to build up force behind a hit. A warhammer staggers an opponent when it hits, a dagger doesn’t. This rating is used to calculate staggering effects, chance of stunning and knockback.

Weight : How heavy an object is. Determines how much stamina it costs you to swing the weapon. A dagger isn’t very taxing to use, but a greatsword is.

Draw: For Ranged weapons only, how taxing it is to draw and fire.

Speed : The time it takes to swing a melee weapon or fire a ranged one.

Parry Rating : How easy it is to block a blow with this weapon.

Armor Penetration : Allows a weapon to penetrate armor defense somewhat.

Strength Requirement : Unless a character meets the strength requirement to use the weapon they will have a penalty to using it.



Examples, with analysis afterwards :

Dagger :

Damage : Low
Range : Low
Precision : High
Impact : Low
Weight : Low
Speed : High
Parry : Low
Armor Pen : Low
Str Req : Low


Warhammer :

Damage : High
Range : High
Precision : Low
Impact : High
Weight : High
Speed : Low
Parry : Low
Armor Pen : None
Str Req : High


Sword :

Damage : Medium
Range : Medium
Precision : Medium
Impact : Medium
Weight : Medium
Speed : Good
Parry : Good
Armor Pen : None
Str Req : Medium


Spiked Mace:

Damage : Medium
Range : Medium
Precision : Medium
Impact : Medium
Weight : Medium
Speed : Medium
Parry : Low
Armor Pen : Medium
Str Req : Medium


Staff :

Damage : Low
Range : High
Precision : Low
Impact : Medium
Weight : Low
Speed : High
Parry : High
Armor Pen : None
Str Req : Low


Longbow :

Damage : Medium
Range : High
Precision : High
Impact : Medium
Weight : Low
Pull : High
Speed : High
Parry : None
Armor Pen : Medium
Str Req : High



Crossbow :

Damage : Medium
Range : Medium
Precision : Medium
Impact : Medium
Weight : Low
Pull : Low
Speed : Low
Parry : None
Armor Pen : Medium
Str Req : Low



Here we can see why this system encourages character archetypes to use specific weapons, instead of simply forcing them. A roguish char would use daggers over swords because their high precision means he can get in critical strikes more often (backstabs etc). Also, the fast speed would allow him to attack quickly, and since it’s not a heavier weapon, he doesn’t need high strength to wield it, and it won’t drain his stamina quickly wielding it.

A warrior will probably want to use a sword, because overall it has the most strengths, ie it is the most balanced weapon. Not great at anything, but no obvious weaknesses. A good all-round, flexible weapon.

Some people will instead focus on the hit-them-as-hard-as-possible strategy. Large weapons help here. A Warhammer or Battleaxe has high damage, and a high impact rating can help keep an opponent staggered while you pummel them. A low precision makes critical strikes unlikely, but wielders of these weapons probably rely on simply bashing their enemies to death, not careful strikes at vital organs. A high range rating means they can generally strike first at people with smaller weapons, but the slower speed of their weapons can let opponents who dodge their initial strike get in blows.

A longbow is a better weapon than a crossbow for a warrior however for lower strength characters a crossbow is a better option, since the mechanical mechanism means it requires less strength to operate and is less tiring to fire, even if it is slower.

Hopefully this system will make weapon choices more interesting, and allow players to play around with strategies in combat.
 

revealer

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Naked Ninja said:
In this way, using strategies which wear out your opponent can give you a sizable advantage. For example choosing a defensive stance and blocking/parrying until your opponent is tired and then switching to an offensive stance to finish them off quickly....

When pc is blocking an attack does it always completely block all damage or does it just increases dodge roll (or armor absorption roll)??
Also I think that each time pc blocks an attack it should burn a bit of stamina.
Everything else looks very good.
Love the stats of different weapons.
 

Claw

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Naked Ninja said:
Clicking your mouse swings your weapon, right clicking does a power attack, shift for block/parry, special attacks are activated by using your currently selected special ability from your hotbar.
That sounds inconvenient. Can't you do the usual "hold left mouse button for power attack" thing? The less keys the better, as far as I am concerned.
Also, those are just the default keybindings, right?

There is a trade off between armor and dodge rating.
Not too much of a trade off, I hope. As far as melee combat goes, more armour should be superior to less armour.
The trade off between armor and dodge rating could make for a great balancing factor, but wearing light or heavy armour shouldn't be a choice of style like in AoD.

There is one idea which I haven't implemented yet but which I'm looking at. A "focus mode" like in Max Payne/Jade Empire. Where you burn stamina to slow down opponents relative to yourself. This would give you a chance to think and an advantage in combat.
I guess it goes without saying that this should be a special ability. There is nothing wrong with a powerful, hard earned skill, and that would automatically limit its use.
 

ushdugery

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Where it says armor penetration none for the Warhammer i'm hoping that means it doesn't need to penetrate armor because it has no sharp edges anyway and leather armor would cushion a blow from a warhammer slightly whereas someone wearing plate would in reality be hurt more i'm just curious if as being a different sort of weapon it will have special stats
 

Claw

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Interesting observation. I've actually considered commenting on that post myself as I find a number of stats dubious.

The warhammer may well be the worst offender. I don't believe "None" means "ignores armour" but a warhammer really should have excellent armour penetration.
Of course, I don't believe leather armour would offer better protection than plate against a war hammer.

Longbows and Crossbows should also offer excellent armour penetration, focusing the force of impact on a small point.
 
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Naked Ninja said:
Hi Sheek,

Alright, to describe the combat system...I'd say it mixes something like the melee combat from an FPS with the quickbar-ability use system of an action rpg. In other words, no "move back and click your mouse to perform a disarm attack" like in Oblivion. Clicking your mouse swings your weapon, right clicking does a power attack, shift for block/parry, special attacks are activated by using your currently selected special ability from your hotbar.

Sounds vaguely similar to combat in Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, which, imo, despite its myriad of faults, still has the best first person melee combat introduced thus far. Comment?
 

Naked Ninja

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When pc is blocking an attack does it always completely block all damage or does it just increases dodge roll (or armor absorption roll)??
Also I think that each time pc blocks an attack it should burn a bit of stamina.

No, it absorbs a portion of the damage based on how good your blockinr roll was. Essentially it adds armor absorbtion. And yeah, burns stamina. If you just sit there blocking you will run out of stamina and your ability to block will decrease, ie your defenses weaken.

That sounds inconvenient. Can't you do the usual "hold left mouse button for power attack" thing? The less keys the better, as far as I am concerned.
Also, those are just the default keybindings, right?

Yes, you can remap keys. But I'm not sure I like the holding the key for a power attack thing, I'll play test both.

Not too much of a trade off, I hope. As far as melee combat goes, more armour should be superior to less armour.

It's superior when you are getting hit. But it increases the chance someone can hit you.

The trade off between armor and dodge rating could make for a great balancing factor, but wearing light or heavy armour shouldn't be a choice of style like in AoD.

What do you mean?


@ Ushdugery :

Where it says armor penetration none for the Warhammer i'm hoping that means it doesn't need to penetrate armor because it has no sharp edges anyway and leather armor would cushion a blow from a warhammer slightly whereas someone wearing plate would in reality be hurt more i'm just curious if as being a different sort of weapon it will have special stats

Why would plate mail be hurt more? It has padding underneath, it's better defence than leather.



but a warhammer really should have excellent armour penetration.

I'm no expert but I don't think so. Why do construction workers wear hard hats on contruction sites, or bikers wear helmets? Because blunt trauma gets absorbed and distributed across the surface of the thing, preventing it from getting to your delicate parts as much. So a brick dropped on the head of someone wearing a hard hat has a decent chance of them surviving. But a sharpened spike dropped from the same height, point down, has a good chance of penetrating. Which is why when plate became common spiked maces gained popularity.

Longbows and Crossbows should also offer excellent armour penetration, focusing the force of impact on a small point.

Agreed, shouldn't be medium, should be high. Archers were knight killers.


Sounds vaguely similar to combat in Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, which, imo, despite its myriad of faults, still has the best first person melee combat introduced thus far. Comment?

While I would like it to be that good, I don't think it will be. DM style combat requires a body part collision system, which I don't have. So instead of swinging at the guys leg and having it hit there, in my system you just use a "leg shot attack" and the game rolls some dice to see if you hit. Sorry.
 

TheLostOne

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This is a war hammer. Pretty much designed to punch through plate.

TS-MEDHAMINF_540.jpg



Perhaps you're thinking of a maul?
 

revealer

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Naked Ninja said:
Longbows and Crossbows should also offer excellent armour penetration, focusing the force of impact on a small point.
Agreed, shouldn't be medium, should be high. Archers were knight killers.

I disagree. Longbows should have medium armor penetration, while crossbows should have high armor penetration.
Arrows in medieval battles were rarely fired directly at the target. More often there were fired in air at high degree (45 or smth like that) so the speed and power that arrows had was depending purely on gravity.

While crossbows were most often used to shot directly at the target. The bolts had greater speed and power when encountering armor.
If you played Medieval Total War maybe you can remember that crossbowman always worked good against armor while arrows were good against unarmored units.
 

Naked Ninja

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Longbows had greater force behind them, crossbows are easier to use but they are less mechanically efficient in transfering the force. I think we've had this discussion before on the codex. Nevermind what Medieval Total War did, that was a game mechanic.
 

revealer

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Naked Ninja said:
Longbows had greater force behind them, crossbows are easier to use but they are less mechanically efficient in transfering the force.

Did some research. Here is what wiki says about force:

Crossbow: Some crossbows had prods of up to at least 800 pounds of draw, if not more. Draw-weights of 500 pounds were common.

Bow: The most powerful bows being the English longbow and the African elephant bow, both of which topped the 200-pound (900 N) at 32 inches mark.
 

Naked Ninja

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I told you, we've had this discussion before on the Codex :

http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html


Although it is impossible for any bow to be perfectly efficient, crossbows are particularly inefficient when compared to longbows. The reason for this is that the draw length and the lath (also called a prod) of crossbows are much shorter than those of longbows. So even though a crossbow may have more stored energy when spanned, the tips of the lathe do not have enough time to reach the maximum velocity that the amount of stored energy would otherwise allow. It is the lathe tip velocity that determines the speed of the bolt that is loosed.
 

revealer

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Couldn't find the codex discussion.
The article you posted was interesting and when it was talking about armor penetration it did say it was either equal either the crossbows are better, depending on era and types of crossbows&longbows.
Another thing that crossed my mind is that a longbow is just one type of a bow.
In SoW will there be just longbows or other types as well. Also other types of bows were definitely less powerful than crossbows and thus have smaller armor penetration.
 

revealer

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Yea, all this talk about penetrations :D
Anyways, bows seem to be much better weapon in SoW so far. Giving crossbows some extra penetration could help up with balance issues :wink:
 

Naked Ninja

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Actually, the balancing factor for crossbows is the same as real life. They are easy to draw/not taxing. So for a character with lower strength crossbows are the way to go. For a strong character you head for the bows section.

But I'll see in game testing, if crossbows need adjusting I will do so. My goal is to make weapons feel fun and different, not to make them totally realistic.
 
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Naked Ninja said:
While I would like it to be that good, I don't think it will be. DM style combat requires a body part collision system, which I don't have. So instead of swinging at the guys leg and having it hit there, in my system you just use a "leg shot attack" and the game rolls some dice to see if you hit. Sorry.

lol you don't have to apologize, I was simply curious what you had in mind. What you're describing sounds like a good solution based on your resources.

Forgive me if this has already been asked, but what do you have in mind for animations?
 

Naked Ninja

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Forgive me if this has already been asked, but what do you have in mind for animations?

In what sense? There will be combat animations, but I'm not sure if that is what you are asking?

And you don't need to apologise either. ;)
 
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Naked Ninja said:
Forgive me if this has already been asked, but what do you have in mind for animations?

In what sense? There will be combat animations, but I'm not sure if that is what you are asking?

And you don't need to apologise either. ;)

Hehe thanks. I guess I was just curious how far youre taking the animations, since its a 1 man labor. Are they going to be TES style or something with a little more detail and smoothness?

Post is 7 days later because, coincidentally, today is my last day of finals. :D
 

Naked Ninja

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Heh, good luck with those finals. ;)

Animations...are tricky. Getting them looking completely convincing without mocap takes skill and experience, which I'm not sure I have.

However, I do have money with which to buy animations from people who have that skill and experience. Or even from indie mocap studios.

Like this :

Motion Pack

A bunch of neat animations there for both the Adam and Ava content packs from garagegames, which, if you have been following SoW dev here on the codex, are the base models I bought and have been modifying to make my character models :

Link

Scroll through those images to see the progression as I turn adam into something more appropriate. Models aren't done but are getting there.

Anyway, returning to animations, I bought that mocap pack, it is really great. Since I'm modifying Adams mesh and not his skeleton they plug in without any hassle.. There aren't any combat animations in that pack though, so I'll either have to find another pack (difficult since animations are built around a specific model skeleton), hire a contract animator to do the animations for the Adam skeleton, or do it myself, which is also an option.

Indies...you have to be willing to wear a LOT of hats, to step in to fill any gaps. If you can't acquire it, you must do it yourself, like any small business. It's a real challenge, but it's an enjoyable challenge, you're constantly growing and learning. Those models in my link may not look the best but remember before them I'd done NO character modelling whatsoever. I learn quickly and have confidence I can master anything given enough time. But I will take any shortcuts, build on others work, to decrease that time if I can. ;)

So how will SoW's animations look? The best I can make them. That's all I can really promise, besides that I'm constantly striving to improve. :)
 

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