Let's settle this once and for all! Who's the Top Dog?

Vault Dweller · Dec 11, 2009

Fezzik said:
...what your posts indicate to me is that you're saying that the role-playing elements of an RPG, if good enough, should determine the quality of an RPG far more than the implementation of the elements that go into that, like the difference between a combat-oriented path and a less combat-oriented path.

Surely you'd agree that the "if good enough" part must include implementation?

If that weren't the case, why would people choosing Fallout over Arcanum be indicative of them simply preferring combat and being in a more Mondblutian camp or whatever? Sure, combat was mentioned, but I would hardly think that combat alone would be the determiner for most of the folks here, especially considering that Fallout's combat is nothing special.

I beg to differ. While Fallout combat wasn't very deep, it had:

- firearms (better than swinging yet another +3 sword)
- outstanding and very satisfying death animations (what other game had anything that was even remotely close to that?)
- limited but well done options (burst, aimed, etc)

Considering that a lot of people think that RPGs are about combat or that combat is one of the mandatory and integrate features, it's easy to believe that Fallout's combat is one of the (if not the) main reasons why Fallout is a more popular game than Arcanum.

I know that is not a logical, point-by-point, fact-based breakdown of things, but ...

...but it's thoughtful and understandable. Thanks.

Brother None · Dec 11, 2009

Vault Dweller said:
Considering that a lot of people think that RPGs are about combat.

Aye. Or, alternatively, "a lot of people" don't like being shoved into annoying dungeon crawls in a game with a weak combat system.

Don't think for people like that, VD, it's weak. I list Fallout above Arcanum for a handful of reasons, and combat is one of them. But how's this: it's not me who attaches importance to combat, it's Arcanum by shoving me into this combat-rich environment.

Vault Dweller · Dec 11, 2009

I didn't say that everyone who likes Fallout likes it because the combat system is so good, did I? Some people loved it for multiple solutions and non-linearity, some people loved it for combat, and some people loved it for both and more. Would that be a fair statement?

Brother None · Dec 11, 2009

Vault Dweller said:
Would that be a fair statement?

Yes. If a bit flipsided. I don't love Fallout more for its combat, I love Arcanum less for its combat. Take combat out of both games, and the decrease in quality of Fallout would be minor compared to the increase in quality of Arcanum.

See? Yet another divergence in the great stream of opinions. It just seems to me that there's something way too absolutist in declaring that Fallout winning this poll is proof positive that the Codex is a bunch of combat-humpers, which I do believe you did earlier in the thread. There's too much else Fallout does right and Arcanum does wrong. And vice versa. When we're talking games of this quality, minor nudges can tilt the balance for individual people. That makes the whole catch-all definition of "it's the combat that does it!" such an unnecessary simplification.

Combat in Fallout is better than in Arcanum or Torment. To conclude from that "hence when Fallout wins a poll over the other two it must be due to combat" is a gigantic leap of logic.

Vault Dweller · Dec 11, 2009

Brother None said:
See? Yet another divergence in the great stream of opinions. It just seems to me that there's something way too absolutist in declaring that Fallout winning this poll is proof positive that the Codex is a bunch of combat-humpers, which I do believe you did earlier in the thread.

I said "based on the comments made in this thread".

Also:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=39174

Multi-headed Cow · Dec 11, 2009

Yeah, I wouldn't say combat's the main reason I like Fallout even though it's what I listed as the main reason I chose it over Arcanum or PST. It's just that Fallout doesn't have BAD combat, whereas I couldn't stand PST or Arcanum for combat. And since combat is important in all of them (Anyone who says rat diplomacy or "High INT/WIS TNO can talk out of anything!" is full of shit) having much better combat (Decent) is a bigger advantage to me than the setting/options of Arcanum or the writing/characters of PST, neither of which Fallout does poorly.

Hell, I'd have a tough time deciding between Fallout and Bloodlines for my top dog RPG, and Bloodlines has sub-decent combat. And I wouldn't include ToEE at all even though it has fantastic combat.

Stalin · Dec 11, 2009

wizardry series

Kz3r0 · Dec 11, 2009

Multi-headed Cow said:
Yeah, I wouldn't say combat's the main reason I like Fallout even though it's what I listed as the main reason I chose it over Arcanum or PST. It's just that Fallout doesn't have BAD combat, whereas I couldn't stand PST or Arcanum for combat. And since combat is important in all of them (Anyone who says rat diplomacy or "High INT/WIS TNO can talk out of anything!" is full of shit) having much better combat (Decent) is a bigger advantage to me than the setting/options of Arcanum or the writing/characters of PST, neither of which Fallout does poorly.

Hell, I'd have a tough time deciding between Fallout and Bloodlines for my top dog RPG, and Bloodlines has sub-decent combat. And I wouldn't include ToEE at all even though it has fantastic combat.

You can avoid all the combat in Arcanum, period.

mondblut · Dec 11, 2009

Zoidstar said:
Halo can be an RPG if you want it to be, its about using your imagination.

LARPing FTW!

Therefore whoever here has the best imagination is the best RPG. Fin.

Notepad.exe is best RPG evar.

Korgan · Dec 11, 2009

JarlFrank · Dec 11, 2009

Kz3r0 said:
Multi-headed Cow said:

Yeah, I wouldn't say combat's the main reason I like Fallout even though it's what I listed as the main reason I chose it over Arcanum or PST. It's just that Fallout doesn't have BAD combat, whereas I couldn't stand PST or Arcanum for combat. And since combat is important in all of them (Anyone who says rat diplomacy or "High INT/WIS TNO can talk out of anything!" is full of shit) having much better combat (Decent) is a bigger advantage to me than the setting/options of Arcanum or the writing/characters of PST, neither of which Fallout does poorly.

Hell, I'd have a tough time deciding between Fallout and Bloodlines for my top dog RPG, and Bloodlines has sub-decent combat. And I wouldn't include ToEE at all even though it has fantastic combat.

Click to expand...

You can avoid all the combat in Arcanum, period.

Yeah maybe if you level up your sneaking right in the beginning and never take any followers and are constantly in sneak mo... oh wait that was sarcasm, wasn't it?

Emotional Vampire · Dec 11, 2009

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPLETELY AVOID COMBAT IN ARCANUM: OF STEAMWORKS AND MAGICK OBSCURA.

Jim Cojones · Dec 11, 2009

JarlFrank said:
Yeah maybe if you level up your sneaking right in the beginning and never take any followers and are constantly in sneak mo... oh wait that was sarcasm, wasn't it?

No, just pick charisma + persuasion, take as many followers as you can, turn real time on and you will never experience any combat.

Forest Dweller · Dec 11, 2009

That's not avoiding combat.

Jim Cojones · Dec 11, 2009

Dicksmoker said:
That's not avoiding combat.

In terms of gameplay? Yes, it is.

In terms of "I am a pacifist so I won't be killing anyone in the game" faggotry? No, it isn't.

baronjohn · Dec 11, 2009

Torment above Arcanum? :decline:

Kz3r0 · Dec 11, 2009

JarlFrank said:
Kz3r0 said:

Multi-headed Cow said:

Yeah, I wouldn't say combat's the main reason I like Fallout even though it's what I listed as the main reason I chose it over Arcanum or PST. It's just that Fallout doesn't have BAD combat, whereas I couldn't stand PST or Arcanum for combat. And since combat is important in all of them (Anyone who says rat diplomacy or "High INT/WIS TNO can talk out of anything!" is full of shit) having much better combat (Decent) is a bigger advantage to me than the setting/options of Arcanum or the writing/characters of PST, neither of which Fallout does poorly.

Hell, I'd have a tough time deciding between Fallout and Bloodlines for my top dog RPG, and Bloodlines has sub-decent combat. And I wouldn't include ToEE at all even though it has fantastic combat.

Click to expand...

You can avoid all the combat in Arcanum, period.

Click to expand...

Yeah maybe if you level up your sneaking right in the beginning and never take any followers and are constantly in sneak mo... oh wait that was sarcasm, wasn't it?

Charm beast.
Dominate will.
Invisibility.
Teleportation.
Mastery in Persuasion and Haggle.
Don't tell your story to anyone, accept bates' quest.

Serus · Dec 11, 2009

Fallout 2

From the choices given: Fallout 1.
Fallout 2 > 1 because the first one is too small and too short for me.

Arcanum should be the winner easily but the horrible combat engine and lack of game balance makes it worse than both Fallouts.

Talonfire · Dec 11, 2009

Quilty said:
Hang on a minute.

Has BLOBERT expressed his opinion yet?

I need to know what he thinks.

I imagine that BLOBERT would say something along these lines:

"FALOWT ARKANIM AND PISSCAPE TORMINT ARE FOR CONSOLEFAGS!!!!!! REAL BROS PLAY ULTINMA AND BG2..."

Reject_666_6 · Dec 11, 2009

I thought BLOBERT was too oldschool for BG2.

Quilty · Dec 11, 2009

Talonfire said:
Quilty said:

Hang on a minute.

Has BLOBERT expressed his opinion yet?

I need to know what he thinks.

Click to expand...

I imagine that BLOBERT would say something along these lines:

"FALOWT ARKANIM AND PISSCAPE TORMINT ARE FOR CONSOLEFAGS!!!!!! REAL BROS PLAY ULTINMA AND BG2..."

Perhaps, but I need him to personally say it and guide us through these troubled times when one man can make a thread as unholy as this one and not get a single "Plane tickets, warmongering bitch!"

King Crispy · Dec 11, 2009

This thread is not unholy. We are Codex. We are hivemind. There must be unity. There can be only one.

Resistance is frowned upon.

Zoidstar · Dec 11, 2009

mondblut said:
Therefore whoever here has the best imagination is the best RPG. Fin.

Click to expand...

Notepad.exe is best RPG evar.

Myself, I'm currently playing through WinZip (ironman).

VentilatorOfDoom · Dec 11, 2009

Winzip is shit. No femael armorz, no boobs and the writing sucks. Combats is mediocre. Meh.

Awor Szurkrarz · Dec 11, 2009

I like Fallout the most.

Arcanum could be my favourite if it would have no mandatory combat encounters (for example, whole story would happen in a well guarded city) and if the PC would start on level 7-12 (when character development system finally allows the PC to do interesting things). It has good dialogues, cool setting, interesting quest solutions nice music and graphics but it is spoiled by too much combat and horrible mechanics.

As for PST - I have played it through once and enjoyed every non-combat moment of it. I have tried starting again three times but I can't get myself to re-read all these walls of text.
They all remind me that I have already played this game.
While long dialogues are be a good form of gameplay, they drastically decrease replayability.
Also, like Arcanum, it has too much combat without really interesting and rewarding combat mechanics.

Let's settle this once and for all! Who's the Top Dog?

What is the Codex' choice for greatest CRPG of all time?

I choose Arcanum!

I choose Fallout!

I choose Torment!

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