Jeff Vogel on RPG difficulty

Vault Dweller · Nov 21, 2009

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/11/ ... asier.html

My worst instinct has to do with game difficulty. I'm a hardcore nerd of the old school, and I'm not truly satisfied unless a game is really difficult. Other people, also known as "regular humans," do not, in fact, want this.

I used to succinctly describe my views about game difficulty thus:

People will forgive a game for being too hard. They will never forgive it for being too easy.

No. This is, in fact, completely, 100% opposite from the truth. A better summary of reality would be:

People will happily forgive a game for being too easy, because it makes them feel badass. If a game is too hard, they will get angry, ragequit, hold a grudge, and never buy your games again.

Video games are leisure time expressions of adolescent power fantasies. They should only be hard if players specifically request that they be hard.

After long reflection, here is my new rule for RPGs I write:

When a player is on the default difficult level, has built his or her characters poorly, and is playing straight through the main storyline with mediocre tactics, that player should almost never be killed.

I can almost hear the heads of hardcore gamers imploding with impotent nerdrage. But seriously. If you have a problem with this, I think you're getting a lot of your fun from making other people have less fun.

Of course, a game should have harder difficulty levels. And, if a player chooses to opt-in on higher difficulty, they should be seriously nasty. But, when played on the default difficulty, the game should be accessible to your mom or average eight-year old.

I'm about to release my next game, Avernum 6. And it doesn't live up to what I have learned. In fact, in parts, it gets downright tricky. But then I'm going to write an all-new game series, and I promise that it will be pretty easy on Normal difficulty.

And if you turn the difficulty up to Torment, well, I'll be gunning for you.

Oh, and one parting thought.

If your game is actually fun, killing the player won't make it more fun. But nothing sucks all of the fun out of a good game faster than repeated failure.

This does not bode well.

FeelTheRads · Nov 21, 2009

that player should almost never be killed.

Like in DA then?

Vault Dweller · Nov 21, 2009

Yes, let's make this thread about DA too because the other 50 DA threads don't cover all possible topics of interest.

Since you asked though, it's very, very easy to die in Dragon Age.

oldmanpaco · Nov 21, 2009

But, when played on the default difficulty, the game should be accessible to your mom or average eight-year old.

At least he took a swipe at the people who play on his new and improved normal difficulty level.

ElectricOtter · Nov 21, 2009

heres my advice on jeff vogel

1.try his games

2. never listen to whatever the fuck he spews out of his mouth

PorkaMorka · Nov 21, 2009

His reasoning is entirely correct. This is a natural consequence of the mainstreamization (not a word) of gaming.

There is an unfortunate consequence of it though.

In an ideal world, you might make a normal difficulty that's very easy, and then have a hard difficulty with smarter AI, additional enemies and traps, that you really poured a lot into to make sure hardcore gamers had a really nice challenge.

In reality though, it is vastly more profitable to make a normal difficulty that is very easy, not worry about making a good AI at all, and then simply increase enemy stats using multiplication to create hard and nightmare modes. It simply takes far less effort and time to do it this way, and it will take a while for people to realize that the harder modes are still poor.

It's really rather funny, not only is good AI in games hard to program... it's not really desired by mainstream gamers!

Obviously this has unpleasant consequences for someone like myself who quits games whenever the challenge runs out.

Melcar · Nov 21, 2009

The name makes me laugh.

Raapys · Nov 21, 2009

I wouldn't really care if a game was easy at the default difficulty if the higher difficulties were designed to be harder. But that's just the problem; the encounters are not designed to be harder, the game will simply give the enemies more hitpoints and a stat bonus, or your attacks and spells will have less effect. And that just makes for boring gameplay.

oldmanpaco · Nov 21, 2009

What designers should do is make their game at a suitable difficulty and call it something besides normal or hard - maybe Core Rules like BG2. Then dumb it down a little and call it normal. Then cheat a little for the enemies and call it hard.

DreadMessiah · Nov 21, 2009

Most people do not want hard. Just look at all the bitching about how difficult it is. It is very easy even on nightmare with proper party and talents/spells. The over abundance of potion/injury kit ingredients makes the game very easy.

Dionysus · Nov 21, 2009

Vault Dweller said:
This does not bode well.

...for people that want to play a challenging game, but don't know how to adjust a difficulty slider.

Vogel is right. In general, the people that want a frictionless gameplay experience are more likely to give up and play something else rather than tinker with "options" menus. Regardless of what it's called, the default difficulty should be easy.

Melcar · Nov 21, 2009

oldmanpaco said:
What designers should do is make their game at a suitable difficulty and call it something besides normal or hard - maybe Core Rules like BG2. Then dumb it down a little and call it normal. Then cheat a little for the enemies and call it hard.

Retard > Dumbeddown > Nomal > Hardcore > MasteroftheUniverse

Emotional Vampire · Nov 21, 2009

Wow, even I, the only Codexer ever who thinks RPGs shouldn't be hard, think this is bullshit.

racofer · Nov 21, 2009

The question that matters most and nobody bothered to ask yet: how can we improve on DA's difficulty based on Jeff Vogel's opinion? Do we make it easier for the average player, or punish him for his incompetence? Which approach is better and why?

Discuss!!

Melcar · Nov 21, 2009

What will the default difficulty setting in AoD be? I hope itz "you will die every fucking step of the way".

DreadMessiah · Nov 21, 2009

racofer said:
The question that matters most and nobody bothered to ask yet: how can we improve on DA's difficulty based on Jeff Vogel's opinion? Do we make it easier for the average player, or punish him for his incompetence? Which approach is better and why?

Discuss!!

Already done with a patch...

Zed · Nov 21, 2009

I quite recently started playing on hardest with every game I start on. MW2, DAO, and uh okay so I don't play very much. But they've been double the fun with an actual challenge.

As long as there is a hard or harder setting then I'm okay with the default setting being mongoloid-friendly. As long as I can feel better than noob shitfaces when I tell them they play on easy fucking baby difficulties.

Lesifoere · Nov 21, 2009

Melcar said:
What will the default difficulty setting in AoD be? I hope itz "you will die every fucking step of the way".

There should be a built-in prevention against saving and reloading, too: saving will be possible, but half the time when you reload the savegame will corrupt itself. The other half, you'll find your character low on health, stripped of all equipment, and teleported to an area full of hostile NPCs at least ten levels above your level.

obediah · Nov 21, 2009

But, when played on the default difficulty, the game should be accessible to your mom or average eight-year old.

Once again Jeff jumps to the quick and wrong conclusion. Accessibility for casual games is only about 20% difficulty. It's 60% complexity, and once you make a game simple enough for grandma or retarded children, no amount of hp bonuses for enemies will entertain the gamers that have fed him the last 20 years.

And if for some reason, Vogel is really deluded enough to think the only reason they aren't aren't playing Avernum 5 after wii bowling in nursing homes is because the combat is too hard and just makes the same game with easier combat, then PorkaMorka is completely correct. We will get a game designed for morons and nightmare mode will just twiddle some numbers to keep the bad guys in the fight longer - wee!

Lonely Vazdru · Nov 21, 2009

Jeff Vogel said:
player should almost never be killed.

Still too hardcore. Get rid of that annoying "almost" and we'll be talking.

Vault Dweller · Nov 21, 2009

Melcar said:
What will the default difficulty setting in AoD be? I hope itz "you will die every fucking step of the way".

That's the only difficulty setting we have.

Yeesh · Nov 21, 2009

You know, actually this is just in keeping with the new way businesses are packaging their products. There hasn't been a small size at BK for a while now; there's just medium, large, and extra large. No one wants small.

And no one wants to select "Easy", so now it's Normal, Hard, and Extra Hard. Does it really matter that the easy mode is called Normal? If you care, you're going to pick the harder one anyway. If you don't care, then...

How is giving the monsters more killing power and hitpoints not a legitimate way to increase difficulty? No one's saying make the AI bad on purpose.

Forest Dweller · Nov 21, 2009

If it still requires the same tactics or utilizes the same skills, but just the enemies take longer to kill, that is bad, and in reality is WORSE than the normal mode.

Cheap challenge < No challenge < Good Challenge

GarfunkeL · Nov 21, 2009

Good example - in original Hearts of Iron, player could decide whether AI would be weakling, normal or furious in its actions. People chose furious, since it was meant to be harder. End result? AI was overtly aggressive, actually making the gameplay easier for the player, since he could just entrap the bull-rushing AI, making victories quicker than with weakling or "normal" AI.

Yeesh · Nov 21, 2009

GarfunkeL said:
Good example - in original Hearts of Iron, player could decide whether AI would be weakling, normal or furious in its actions. People chose furious, since it was meant to be harder. End result? AI was overtly aggressive, actually making the gameplay easier for the player, since he could just entrap the bull-rushing AI, making victories quicker than with weakling or "normal" AI.

Again, no one's saying bad AI is a good plan. But all other things equal, not changing the AI at all, giving German divisions twice as much staying power or killing power certainly would provide a greater challenge, wouldn't it? What's wrong with that, if people are clamouring a game's too easy?

Jeff Vogel on RPG difficulty

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