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Review Edward R Murrow's Dissertation on Fallout 3
- Thread starter DarkUnderlord
- Start date
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
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I think it's quite obvious that neither Dark Underlord nor I really give a shit about Fallout 3 in general and the railway rifle in particular. What you are witnessing is an EPIC, IMMERSIVE, and quite possibly the NEXT-GENERATION-like battle of good and evil. The fate of the entire universe depends on the outcome. Serious business, guys.Mikayel said:
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
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You followed a scripted story. While there were some optional locations, you were always directed where to go and what to do next. Locations were unlocked and added to the map when it was time for you to go there.Hamster said:
Just because you liked exploring and looking at pretty backgrounds doesn't mean that game was about exploring.
DarkUnderlord said:
My opinion of Fallout 3 is basically the one time low expectations paid off. Bethesda did a much better job with it than I was expecting them to do. That's not to say I don't have problems with a lot of things in Fallout 3, but there are a heck of a lot less issues with Fallout 3 than I was anticipating.
Would I have liked it to have it's isometric view? Probably, mainly because I liked the table-top feel of the first. The same thing goes for the hex grid, turn based combat, and so on.
Is VATS flakey? Yeah, it is. The AP system just seems wonky. I would have liked it more if they'd used the little LED lights where one light is one AP a la Fallout as opposed to the graduated percentage scale. Jet is supposed to add APs, but it mainly seems to just make APs generate faster from what I can tell. I can't punch people more times in the face when I'm on Jet, but I seem to be able to punch them more often. I don't like not being able to target people's body parts in melee. I don't like not having special attacks for melee like Fallout had. That said, VATS works better than I was expecting because I actually use it.
Are the quests decent? Some of them are. In fact, some of them are pretty decent. The main quest is too scripted, too cut scene-y, and too linear. There's multiple ways of getting a lot of the clues which trail you along, but it's always the same thing over and over again. But the quests are generally better than I was expecting.
The dialogue can be irritating and I don't like the fact that everything is voiced. There are a lot of speech tags. I've seen tags for Karma, attributes like Strength and Intelligence, speech generated by Perks, and so forth. I don't like the fact the Speech skill is a roll of the dice, but oh well. I also hate the swearing. There's too many characters who F-Bomb regularly for the setting. One or two F-Bombs in the game would have been fine, but the fact every character is "fuck this!" and "fuck that!" and "fuck you!" is just lame as hell. There's a big list of Fallout slang from the design docs for Fallout. There's no reason why Bethesda couldn't have used that instead.
Karma seems a bit goofy. There's a few times where I've gained and lost Karma that I wouldn't have guessed would be associated with an action. But hey, that's about any game with good and bad actions. I'm not really happy that Karma seems to be hidden and you can't see the karma traits.
I'm really not happy with the Supermutants, Brotherhood of Steel, Enclave, DOG MEAT(!), and so on all being in the game. I would have liked it better if Bethesda had gone their own route with the game with new creatures, factions and such. Harold, I don't mind. Harold is the Forrest Gump of the Fallout universe. He's always around when something big happens. If Deathclaws had made it that far east, across the entire country, they would have taken over. They're too good a predator not to have wiped out entire species along the way. I'd say this is my biggest beef with Fallout 3 really.
The art content for Fallout 3 is way, WAY better than I was expecting. Look at Fallout Tactics and then look at Fallout 3. I was half expecting Fallout Tactics in terms of art design, and got Fallout's art in 3D instead. That makes me happy.
If Fallout 3 had been isometric and turn based, I'd say it would have been easily better than Fallout 2.
While F2 have it's own share of silliness, F3 has way more stupid or retarded things scattered around it's claustrophobic wasteland.Saint_Proverbius said:
And even with changed perspective and reworked combat (it's just horrible and frustrating the way it is now, and I think VATS is only a minor problem compared to it's other aspects) it wouldn't be even on the same league with F2. It might be enjoyable game then, but nothing more.
Kingston
Arcane
Oh whattefuck?
DarkSign
Erudite
Kingston said:
Someone should make this happen with existing mod technology.
MetalCraze
Arcane
Kingston said:
D. of the C. ya mon.
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Teh plot definitely thickens.
Exploring means going anywhere you want whenever you want. It doesn't mean "unlocking location B, checking it out, unlocking location C, etc".
Excuse? Different sub-genres are focused on different things. That's why it's hard to put different games like Darklands, Fallout, Wizardry 8, Daggerfall, Icewind Dale, Torment, Diablo, etc under one roof.Hamster said:
Exploring means going anywhere you want whenever you want. It doesn't mean "unlocking location B, checking it out, unlocking location C, etc".
If you really can't understand what sandbox games are and what makes them different from other games, I don't think I can help you.
DefJam101
Arcane
In a sandbox game you can ride around the countryside on a horse, killing hookers?
Twinfalls
Erudite
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Edward_R_Murrow said:
Listen you denial beserker - you were wrong. There are tons of checks, and most of them are not 'gimme more money'. Most are in fact 'I can get the quest done more quickly' checks. I've also encountered medical, repair, explosives quest checks. And those are just the skills I had high enough. The fact you wrote 'there are scant other checks apart from gimme more money' indicates exactly what VD and I have criticised your piece about. You rushed it.
The schematics are not 'radically useless'. You were wrong. PERIOD. FFS
Shutup. By saying 'actual' and nothing more, you clearly implied actual vampires. You clearly hadn't talked to the quest NPCs right through when you wrote that. Once again, rushed. No amount of weaselling will get you out of this.
Take it like a man, Murrow.
Yeah ok, what you were clearly implying was they were lawyers. FALLOUT 3 SUCKS, IT'S GOT ACTUAL RAYMOND BURR PEOPLE! HARRY HAMLIN AND SUSAN DEY COMIN' AT YA!! ALAN DERSHOWITZ ATTACK!Ummm... projecting much?
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Do what the lady says, Edward.Twinfalls said:
We need more Raymond Burr in Fallout games.
Alex
Arcane
Vault Dweller said:
I know it probably is pretty stupid of me to nose in this discussion again, but I have a small comment here. If I get you right, the reason of your posts VD is simply to show Edward where you think his review was lacking, supposedly so that he can do better on a future one, correct?
If that is the case, I really think that you should have added to your comments on his review what you thought he did right. Don't get me wrong VD, I understand you probably have a lot more experience in dealing with people than me. And maybe this wouldn't go well with your posting style or something. But in my limited experience, criticism where you don't show any good points not only tend to be way harder to swallow, but can also make the criticized one a bit lost, as they might not have a good idea of what they did right.
Anyway, this is the Codex, and this kind of idea is probably seem as fagotry or some other swear word stolen from the cool 13 year old kids. Just thought I would post my 2 cents before this thread ends up dead for good.
Andyman Messiah said:
YOU can do it, Andy. All you need to do is come up with a long post where you detailed explain why Fallout 3 is better than Fallout 1. All the text wall builders will begin to reply against you. This would normally be one or two pages worth of text max, but if you use arguments where people here can't agree with each other, maybe you can get them to start replying to each other instead of replying to your original post!
If you can get Edward, VD, DU, Twinfalls and NN each on separate sides on the issues, this could go on for some 30 pages! Heck, it might even reach critical mass and reach the number of pages of the best thread ever!
P.S. Andy. is that Smith the Horse on your avatar?
I know what a sandbox game is, and i am pretty sure that having some location locked is present in many of them. GTA is the first thing that comes to mind. So why having some locked locations unavailable from the start prevents BG1 from being a game "about exploring , killing and looting"?Vault Dweller said:
Yes, with clearly defined sub-genres it works well. But apparently we have a disagreement about the sub-genre of BG1.
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
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The game had 7 chapters, for God's sake. That alone clearly marks it as a story-driven game, which is the opposite of sandbox.Hamster said:
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Yep¹. As Chefe says in his review:Twinfalls said:
¹ ...and also knowing we had Section8's review on the way.Chefe said:
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Edit: Page 11 is now officially open for business!
I salute you for not giving up and keep posting the same stuff over and over and over again. If you keep doing it long enough, you are bound to win!
:determination:
So, while I agree that Bethesda did what was done before, I disagree with the Edward's "rightly see any point in going easy on them" conclusion.
ESF-worthy. "But...but...but it's my opinion so you can't say that I'm wrong!!!"DarkUnderlord said:
This is THE best (not top 5!) ever attempt to win on technicality. I bow to your skills.
After you went to all the trouble to organize your post and present it so nicely? Replying was the least I could do.
I see. I guess you are really low on arguments if all you have left are adjectives. "He didn't really trash it because he said "pretty"! Why can't you see it?!!"
It's wrong but who cares, eh? They are not quest rewards, they are not mid-level (you can buy the first one in Megaton), they are neither obsolete nor useless as was proven 20 times already, and the ammo thing was addressed at least 10 times.
I salute you for not giving up and keep posting the same stuff over and over and over again. If you keep doing it long enough, you are bound to win!
:determination:
Which applies to the railway rifle ammo as well.
Your position is based on a false assumption that you can use "the best" weapon all the time and thus don't need back ups. I explained it a few times already, but you don't want to listen. I understand. Arguing is more fun.
That's an unsupported and false assumption that you are trying to pass for a fact, hoping that nobody would notice.
Unlike you, I can accept criticism and acknowledge mistakes. "Filled" was definitely a wrong word to use. Sorry, Edward. I should have said "contained".
I did judge it for what it was. It was a shitty sandbox game, disliked by many Morrowind fans.
You may want to check ToEE and KOTOR reviews then. And do something about that Chefe's Fallout 3 you so proudly posted.
It's true that what Bethesda did in FO3 was done 10 years go. However, it wasn't embraced or accepted by the industry. Neither the Witcher nor Mass Effect nor Gothic nor Eschalon had dialogue skill checks. The way I see it Bethesda has just joined an exclusive club and they should be praised for it, not snubbed because they are late. That's definitely a "better late than never" case.
So, while I agree that Bethesda did what was done before, I disagree with the Edward's "rightly see any point in going easy on them" conclusion.
You are missing my point. You are stuck on the number. "It says "3" so damn right I'll compare it to the first two games!" Does that fucking number define everything for you and take away the need to think whether or not the game has much in common with the first two?
It's different. During Oblivion development Bethesda lied just about everything. That had to be pointed out. With Fallout 3 Bethesda was a lot more honest and straightforward, starting with that "we aint gonna do what we don't do well" quote. It doesn't get any more honest than this.
* patiently* Ammo isn't rare. You'll find it everywhere. However, when you start using it, it will be used up and you'll have to switch to a different weapon until your primary weapon's ammo is restocked.
Didn't I explain that? Please reread my previous posts to you and to Edward.
Will you please take a look at the stats? While some weapons are better than the Railway Rifle, they are not much better. In my example above I used a Chinese Rifle with 50 damage. Most weapons listed above have a lot less to offer.
Each point of Luck is 1% critical chance. Finesse adds 5%. Survival Expert adds another 3%. I had 15%. Times 3 turns that into impressive 45%. Like I said, definitely not useless. I have no problem with someone preferring different weapons, but I have an issue with reviews misleading people with false assumptons.
I'm not trying to prove anything about the chinese rifle. I'm trying to prove that the railway rifle isn't useless and is a fine backup weapon.
Uh...what?
I don't really care what Edward's top 5 weapons are as these things are subjective. I'm saying the railway rifle in particular and other schematics in general are not useless and weak attempts to pretend that they are have failed to impress anyone.
I explained a gazillion times why these reasons are false assumptions. It looks like you are not going to listen because your mind is already made.
But all the other weapons he managed to keep in mint condition somehow. You understand my point, don't you?
It's interesting that you rate subjective experience ("I liked them more!") higher than simple and easy to understand facts (weapons' stats).
Running backwards always helps when multiple enemies are unloading their assault and laser rifles in your direction with deadly accuracy.
Jim Cojones
Prophet
38,5875%.Vault Dweller said:
Barrow_Bug
Cipher
*snore*
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Vault Dweller, Page 3, third paragraph:Vault Dweller said:
There are those double standards again. Is it so hard to accept that Edward found the weapon useless for the reasons he outlined? Apparently it is for Vault Dweller.Vault Dweller said:
Love how you ignore the sarcasm in that remark. I was referencing your argument at the "useless" schematics by getting hung up on the word "useless" and ignoring Edward's point, like how Twinfalls ignored the point Edward was making with the Vampires.Vault Dweller said:
Oh, sorry, I have to say "People who actually think they're Vampires" because I'm not allowed to take horrible short-cuts like that.
Here's the fun part about that post. You quoted only the first part and dismissed the rest because you were so busy raging that I'd said the Railway Rifle is the "easiest" weapon to repair, which is a claim I never made. At all. In fact, you went on and on about a point that was never raised. When I point it out? Dead silence. I like how once you've been completely trounced over an issue, you ignore it and just pretend it never happened. I guess that's VD's blind determination for you. God forbid you ever admit you got it completely wrong.Vault Dweller said:
Maybe if you concentrated less on the snide remarks (something you've never actually done well) and focussed more on the actual issues at hand, you might get somewhere instead of just contradicting yourself as you flap around in some kind of mad rage? Think of it as part of your education.
Remember folks, this is coming from the man who's very first reply had the ESF Gold Standard line of replying to a quote with only the word "Incorrect", without any justification. It's like a Volourn puppet show. How he got his hands on two so life-like VD and Twinfalls puppets I'll never know.Vault Dweller said:
Oh and a man who makes up his own arguments when he's failing: "Easiest!"
Actually, nope. Edward already said himself that the Hunting Rifle did less damage than the Railway Rifle (IE: Not "the best" weapon) but was more available making it easier to repair and meaning you had more ammo for it around, rendering the Railway Rifle pretty useless in his eyes.Vault Dweller said:
If you can't see that Vault Dweller trashed the game instead of reviewing and criticizing it, if nothing clicked in your mind when (if) you read that pre-review post, then you're either dishonest or blind.Vault Dweller said:
I'd like the acknowledgement about that crap you spun up over "easy vs easiest" when I never made such a claim. You know, something about you acknowledging your mistake rather than ignoring it and hoping no-one will notice. I'd also like to point out that you've only acknowledged this mistake when you were called on it. What's the matter, not man enough to admit it in any of the 11 previous pages? Edward's already acknowledged that he may have used too harsh a word on page 5:Vault Dweller said:
Oh look, it would appear Edward's a bigger man than VD. He can even do it without the snide remarks. As for people making mistakes, we all know Vault Dweller does. He's been making them through-out this thread.Edward R Murrow said:
Will you also admit that in your review of Oblivion, when you stated "Some perks are plain useless, like the Mercantile perks" that you were incorrect? The Mercantile perks aren't "useless". Sure it's certainly not "the best" but it has a use like being able to sell any item to anyone at Journeyman which is certainly a very useful Mercantile Perk. Here's a YouTube video showing someone levelling up the Merantile (seems like an awful lot to through for some useless perks). Here's a thread where someone's using it as a major skill to get the perks. Some people disagree on its level of usefulness and sure not the best, maybe not even top 5 but certainly not useless!Vault Dweller said:
... and yet here you are comparing the game to Jedi Academy in your review:Vault Dweller said:
You can't compare Oblivion to Jedi Academy VD! Jedi Academy isn't an open sandbox RPG!Vault Dweller said:
There are those double standards again. Vault Dweller's allowed to compare specific aspects of a game to other games that did something better before and justify his expectation that those types of features would be in a game. Edward does it though, and the Holy Knights of Vault Dweller are up in arms, laying siege to the castle gates.
Right so the whole setting, Fallout being an RPG series, Fallout 3 being a role-playing game doesn't matter? I'm sorry, can I get a list of games we are allowed to compare to each other? For example, can I compare Jedi Academy to Oblivion, even though they're absolutely nothing alike? According to Vault Dweller I can when it suits my position. But when Vault Dweller decides to FLIP-FLOP on himself, it's not allowed.Vault Dweller said:
Gosh, news posting must be cursed. The minute you get kicked off staff around here, you seem to get a severe case of the FLIP-FLOPs.
Vault Dweller saying Bethesda are honest? FLIP-FLOP. These are the the kind of "honest" guys Vault Dweller appreciates:Vault Dweller said:
Todd Howard said:
Todd Howard said:
By the way, you know who said "We're not going to suddenly do a top-down isometric Baldur's Gate-style game, because that's not what we do well"? Pete Hines. You know what Vault Dweller thinks of Pete Hines? Here's what Vault Dweller said in this very thread about him on Page 5:Todd Howard said:
... and what does VD do above? He quotes Pete Hines. So which is it VD, is Pete "The Father of Lies" Hines a trust-worthy source to quote or not? Seems to me like you're spinning whatever bullshit you can to suit your position at the time.Vault Dweller said:
FLIP-FLOP.
Yep. This is one of the reasons why Edward found the schematic weapons pretty useless. "By the time you can make them [they're] made useless by the abundance of ammunition for conventional weaponry".Vault Dweller said:
Vault Dweller when it suits his argument #1: Will you please take a look at the stats? While some weapons are better than the Railway Rifle, they are not much better.Vault Dweller said:
Vault Dweller when it suits his argument #2: I didn't say it was the best!
Vault Dweller when it suits his argument #3: Not everything is black and white. Some weapons are superior only under certain conditions (enemy type, scale level (i.e. regular super mutant, brute, or master), number of enemies, distance, weapons' supply, etc). I don't think anyone can say "this here is the best gun; get it and you would never need another one".
Interesting, so someone with a 1% critical chance * 3 = 3%. Said someone would certainly play the game and discover that, lo and behold, such a weapon was radically useless for them. So to make the Railway Rifle useful, you not only have to have a high enough repair, collect junk, find the schematics and have enough ammo for it, you also need to have chosen 3 Perks and super-high Luck... or you know, you could just up your Small Arms skill and use any one of the other weapons... or just get Energy Weapons... or just get Big Guns. Seems like a lot of hoops to go through to make a weapon even remotely useful (as even with all of that, it still only just manages to get in the top 5). And also assuming you find out in-game the Railway Rifle has a * 3 Critical Chance.Vault Dweller said:
Provided you jump through all the hoops that make it useful. So if you haven't jumped through all those hoops, you'd find it pretty useless, right? So not only do we have ammo considerations and repairability but we also have available Perks and your starting stats. I mean no wonder you found combat so hard, you obviously wasted a lot of points on Luck instead of just trying to hit something in the first place.Vault Dweller said:
Well, you managed to keep the Railway Rifle in mint condition somehow. Apparently stuff isn't all that rare in Fallout 3. Edward himself said he had no issue sourcing easily available Chinese Assault Rifles and Combat Shotguns so it certainly doesn't seem to be an issue. You even never had an issue finding all the ammo you needed for the Railway Rifle, so no, I'm not surprised Shannow found everything he needed for the weapons he found better to use.Vault Dweller said:
... said the man who found combat hard and "death easy".Vault Dweller said:
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