AoD combat screen - now with grid!

Vault Dweller · Dec 1, 2005

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What do you think? Better than distance-based?

Edit: The blue is how far you and where you can go, the red is how far you can reach with that hammer.

Spazmo · Dec 1, 2005

I love grids. They're reassuringly mathematical. That said, now that you've done both, it seems logical to just provide an option for the user to use the grid or the flamey circle as he prefers.

Vault Dweller · Dec 1, 2005

Spazmo said:
I love grids. They're reassuringly mathematical.

I'd say they are reassuringly tactical, that's what I love about them. I look at the screen and start planning some scenarios in my mind.

That said, now that you've done both, it seems logical to just provide an option for the user to use the grid or the flamey circle as he prefers.

Unlikely, but I will consider that. I prefer to have one design element, but do it well (to the best of my abilities), then throw in several options for different people.

Andyman Messiah · Dec 1, 2005

Grids are nice, I like it.

callehe · Dec 1, 2005

woot, squares? hexagons are soo much nicer :cool:

well any grid is better than no grid at all.

will you be able to see the enemy's movement grid as well?

Kamaz · Dec 1, 2005

Actually, I might be graphics whore or might understand nothing in RPGs, but I still find that circle thing more suitable design than grid.

That said, though, must admit, grid is clearer - now its easy to see whats going on.

Maybe you could decorate grid a bit? NOw it looks plainly technical and falls out of overall feeling/design/style.

Vault Dweller · Dec 1, 2005

Decorate with what? Flowers and naked maidens?

GhanBuriGhan · Dec 1, 2005

Hmm, I'd prefer the grid to show up on mouse over to highlight the path you would be going, and the circle being permanent or toggled to show your range. The grid is a bit too "massive" for my taste as a standard interface item. If you really want a grid, I'd at least tone it down to colored lines instead of filled squares.

Naked maidens would be great too, of course

Elwro · Dec 1, 2005

Looks nice. I prefer such a grid to the circle I've seen the last time.

Stark · Dec 1, 2005

same here. i prefer the current grid system. the flaming circle thingy does not appeal to me.

are we able to plot our path and be told the number of APs involved? If i mouse over from grid A to grid B, will i be told the number of AP spent should i make such a move?

Frau Bishop · Dec 1, 2005

Vault Dweller said:
Decorate with what? Flowers and naked maidens?

What a beautiful idea!!1

AnalogKid · Dec 1, 2005

I think an artificial grid system is obnoxious. If you really have a "continuous" system that works with circles and facing arcs etc. (i.e. if the grids don't add any tactical functionality) then I'd vastly prefer open spacing. Of course, if adding the grids helps your AI or allows you to implement combat rules that you can't implement "continuously" because of complexity, then the grids are probably a better choice.

Grids seem to me like unnecessary quantization, just like the stat multipliers in MW.

Human Shield · Dec 1, 2005

Does look sexy.

Has the movement always been based on squares or was it free movement before in a real radius?

Grids make life easier in a way but great into why people can move 5 squares on axis directions and only 2 diagonal. And it means that buildings and hallways would conform to the axis, making easier mapping but can look too square.

You could put in a colored overlay for ranged weapons.

Grid can make it easier to pick up while adding more thought on what to do. I know I exploited the radius system in TOEE with 5 foot steps preventing monsters to attack twice.

Easier to keep AP in mind when you see the blocks.

deus · Dec 1, 2005

Go back to distance-based movement. It's its incredibly frustrating and nonsensical to have movement distance cut in half if I want to move at a 45 degree angle.

JaheiraRocks · Dec 1, 2005

I like the grid style, but it could be made a little bit more subtle.

Maybe making it more translucent and toning down the colours a bit (less saturation) whould help. As of now it's like it's screaming "Look at me! Look at me!".

HanoverF · Dec 1, 2005

I dont really like the grid, kinda uglies it up, if at all possible I'd suggest going for a premovement footstep/target cursor dealy like Jagged Alliance had

Major_Blackhart · Dec 2, 2005

Make it like Fallout! seriously, tho, tone down the colors a bit, and make them more translucent. Other than that, I like it.

Nick · Dec 2, 2005

Stark said:
If i mouse over from grid A to grid B, will i be told the number of AP spent should i make such a move?

Yep. If you meant the "current PC's position" under "grid A".

Human Shield said:
Has the movement always been based on squares or was it free movement before in a real radius?

A long-long time ago, in a galaxy far-far away... when AoD was based on my old 2D engine, we had a tile-based maps. And our current engine (seriously modified Torque) inherits that system as well. Besides, TGE had everything to make distance-based system work. So now we have both of them. Just need to pick one

Human Shield said:
You could put in a colored overlay for ranged weapons.

Sure.

deus said:
Go back to distance-based movement. It's its incredibly frustrating and nonsensical to have movement distance cut in half if I want to move at a 45 degree angle.

Cutting diagonal movement's distance in a half isn't an unbreakable law. IMO, it's not a serious enough reason to refuse from grid-based system, which gives so many advantages. So, do you have any thoughts about fixing that "frustrating and nonsensical" problem? Does anyone else consider it frustrating? Speak your mind, people, good ideas are always appreciated.

JaheiraRocks said:
I like the grid style, but it could be made a little bit more subtle.

Maybe making it more translucent and toning down the colours a bit (less saturation) whould help.

Easy. It would be good to hear more opinions, though.

HanoverF said:
I dont really like the grid, kinda uglies it up, if at all possible I'd suggest going for a premovement footstep/target cursor dealy like Jagged Alliance had

That's possible too, we thought about it. Though, that system is less visually helpful than grid.
Grid allows you to quickly estimate your position, see the place you can reach. And you had to click an area in JA to see the footsteps.

Shagnak · Dec 2, 2005

On the one hand I like it - it makes the combat seem more tactical; but on the other hand it makes it look too...clinical, I guess. A look that would better suited to a sci-fi TB combat game or something.

I was okay with the original reach indicators, i.e. I preferred "distance-based".

puppyonastik · Dec 2, 2005

To make the grid more suble, I suggest making the squares just the colored outlines, much like fallout's hex cursor when you are selecting your destinaton.

Edit: Noticed the outlines in your screenshots are perfectly (imho) thin.

Hope that helps.

Vault Dweller · Dec 2, 2005

Damn! Can you people try to act like a hive mind for a minute? What's with all those different opinions? *sigh*

Anyway, we have 2 systems at the moment: distance-based (see previous screens) and grid-based. Both could be improved further. So, speak up now (or shut the fuck up later :lol:

).

Here is my take on it: in TB grid rulez. Distance-based systems aren't precise enough, they are more automated, more "let us handle it for you, and don't worry about it" systems. In both ToEE and JA moving and planning your moves was less important and less tactical than it was in the Realms of Arkania games, for example. Even something as simple as limiting short reach weapons to straight squares, while allowing longer reach weapons to hit the diagonal squares adds a bit of tactical depth.

Vault Dweller · Dec 2, 2005

Shagnak said:
On the one hand I like it - it makes the combat seem more tactical; but on the other hand it makes it look too...clinical, I guess.

Tactics vs ... don't even know what you traded tactics for, you, tactics-hater, you :lol:

Vault Dweller · Dec 2, 2005

puppyonastik said:
To make the grid more suble, I suggest making the squares just the colored outlines, much like fallout's hex cursor when you are selecting your destinaton.

Edit: Noticed the outlines in your screenshots are perfectly (imho) thin.

Hope that helps.

We can try that. Thanks for caring and for finally joining us.

AnalogKid · Dec 2, 2005

Vault Dweller said:
Here is my take on it: in TB grid rulez. Distance-based systems aren't precise enough, they are more automated, more "let us handle it for you, and don't worry about it" systems. In both ToEE and JA moving and planning your moves was less important and less tactical than it was in the Realms of Arkania games, for example. Even something as simple as limiting short reach weapons to straight squares, while allowing longer reach weapons to hit the diagonal squares adds a bit of tactical depth.

How are distance based systems less precise? In grid systems all that happens is if your movement gets rounded down (e.g. for diagonals) then you can't even move a portion of a square. That seems far less precise to me.

I agree that a distance-based system should give feedback to the user. How about looking at something like Rome:Total War's movement options, where it calculates all the terrain penalties for you and then simply displays a shaded cloud of possible movmenet area? It would allow just as much planning as the displayed grids, but without the horrible artifacts created by having to occupy discreet squares. You could have two layers of shading, one for possible movement and one for move+attack (you could even add a running layer if you wanted to go overboard). All of this is easily displayable without a ridiculous HUD if you use the feet-path method mentioned earlier, but then you couldn't see all of your options at a glance. So I'd recommend various subtle shaded regions that are not restricted to grids. Best of both worlds!

As for the tactical depth created by allowing different weapons to reach farther, why doesn't that exist in a distance-based system? You'd just have to let polearms (for example) have a longer attack radius than shorter weapons. Again, you'd increase tactical options by allowing a whole range of subtle differences between weapons instead of just "1 square" and "2 square" categories.

obediah · Dec 2, 2005

hexagons hexagons hexagons hexagons

please, please, please - they get rid of so much of the diagonal wonkiness.

AoD combat screen - now with grid!

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