AoD combat screen - now with grid!

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AoD combat screen - now with grid!
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The Codex Forums -> Age of Decadence

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Vault Dweller
Ubersturmfuhrer

Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 15337
Location: Vault 13

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:48 pm Post subject: AoD combat screen - now with grid!

link 1 link 2 What do you think? Better than distance-based? Edit: The blue is how far you and where you can go, the red is how far you can reach with that hammer. _________________ Spazmo: Odds are, something you like very much sucks. Why? Because this is RPG Codex.

Spazmo
Fights like a dairy farmer

Joined: 09 Nov 2002
Posts: 5754
Location: Monkey Island

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:03 pm Post subject:

I love grids. They're reassuringly mathematical. That said, now that you've done both, it seems logical to just provide an option for the user to use the grid or the flamey circle as he prefers. _________________ How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

Vault Dweller
Ubersturmfuhrer

Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 15337
Location: Vault 13

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject:

Spazmo wrote:

I love grids. They're reassuringly mathematical.

I'd say they are reassuringly tactical, that's what I love about them. I look at the screen and start planning some scenarios in my mind.

Quote:

That said, now that you've done both, it seems logical to just provide an option for the user to use the grid or the flamey circle as he prefers.

Unlikely, but I will consider that. I prefer to have one design element, but do it well (to the best of my abilities), then throw in several options for different people.
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Spazmo: Odds are, something you like very much sucks. Why? Because this is RPG Codex.

Andyman Messiah

Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5624

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:11 pm Post subject:

Grids are nice, I like it. _________________ My fuck yeahsticly awesome reviews of some of the Codex's favorite games! Mass Effect \| Fallout 3 \| The Witcher \| Mass 2 Effect My horrible LP's of some of the best roleplaying games ever made! Pokemon Emerald \| Final Fantasy 7 \| Final Fantasy 8

callehe

Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 454
Location: Gothic Castle

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject:

woot, squares? hexagons are soo much nicer 8-) well any grid is better than no grid at all. will you be able to see the enemy's movement grid as well? _________________ www.pentrix.com Learn the Art of Pen Spinning

Kamaz

Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 587
Location: The Glorious Ancient City of Loja

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject:

Actually, I might be graphics whore or might understand nothing in RPGs, but I still find that circle thing more suitable design than grid. That said, though, must admit, grid is clearer - now its easy to see whats going on. Maybe you could decorate grid a bit? NOw it looks plainly technical and falls out of overall feeling/design/style. _________________ If you don't care for what I have to say, I'll just shut up and let the mainstream speak.

Vault Dweller
Ubersturmfuhrer

Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 15337
Location: Vault 13

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:11 pm Post subject:

Decorate with what? Flowers and naked maidens? _________________ Spazmo: Odds are, something you like very much sucks. Why? Because this is RPG Codex.

GhanBuriGhan

Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 1155

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:20 pm Post subject:

Hmm, I'd prefer the grid to show up on mouse over to highlight the path you would be going, and the circle being permanent or toggled to show your range. The grid is a bit too "massive" for my taste as a standard interface item. If you really want a grid, I'd at least tone it down to colored lines instead of filled squares. Naked maidens would be great too, of course _________________ Under the spreading chestnut tree I sold you and you sold me

Elwro
-

Joined: 29 Dec 2002
Posts: 8078
Location: Krakow, Poland

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:37 pm Post subject:

Looks nice. I prefer such a grid to the circle I've seen the last time. _________________ Strong winds bring sea spray. I stand on the cliff, trying to endure the pain within me, growing stronger. Ever stronger -Tyrax Lightning

Stark

Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 770

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:46 pm Post subject:

same here. i prefer the current grid system. the flaming circle thingy does not appeal to me. are we able to plot our path and be told the number of APs involved? If i mouse over from grid A to grid B, will i be told the number of AP spent should i make such a move?

Frau Bishop

Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1647
Location: Mitten im Vaterland

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:46 pm Post subject:

Vault Dweller wrote:

Decorate with what? Flowers and naked maidens?

What a beautiful idea!!1
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AnalogKid

Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 259
Location: SoCal

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:55 pm Post subject:

I think an artificial grid system is obnoxious. If you really have a "continuous" system that works with circles and facing arcs etc. (i.e. if the grids don't add any tactical functionality) then I'd vastly prefer open spacing. Of course, if adding the grids helps your AI or allows you to implement combat rules that you can't implement "continuously" because of complexity, then the grids are probably a better choice. Grids seem to me like unnecessary quantization, just like the stat multipliers in MW. _________________ "I'm not giving in to security, under pressure. I'm not missing out on the promise of adventure. I'm not giving up on implausible dreams. Experience to extremes..."-RUSH 'The Enemy Within'

Human Shield

Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Posts: 2027
Location: VA, USA

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:07 pm Post subject:

Does look sexy. Has the movement always been based on squares or was it free movement before in a real radius? Grids make life easier in a way but great into why people can move 5 squares on axis directions and only 2 diagonal. And it means that buildings and hallways would conform to the axis, making easier mapping but can look too square. You could put in a colored overlay for ranged weapons. Grid can make it easier to pick up while adding more thought on what to do. I know I exploited the radius system in TOEE with 5 foot steps preventing monsters to attack twice. Easier to keep AP in mind when you see the blocks. _________________ Axes are Blunt Weapons, Silly.

deus

Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 142

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:13 pm Post subject:

Go back to distance-based movement. It's its incredibly frustrating and nonsensical to have movement distance cut in half if I want to move at a 45 degree angle.

JaheiraRocks

Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 17
Location: The High Forest

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:14 pm Post subject:

I like the grid style, but it could be made a little bit more subtle. Maybe making it more translucent and toning down the colours a bit (less saturation) whould help. As of now it's like it's screaming "Look at me! Look at me!".

HanoverF

Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 3059

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:41 pm Post subject:

I dont really like the grid, kinda uglies it up, if at all possible I'd suggest going for a premovement footstep/target cursor dealy like Jagged Alliance had

Major_Blackhart
-

Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 5223
Location: Jersey for now

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:49 am Post subject:

Make it like Fallout! seriously, tho, tone down the colors a bit, and make them more translucent. Other than that, I like it. _________________ Well, it's not quite a mop, and it's not quite a puppet, but man oh man. Nicolai wrote "You are the worst person ever, Blackhart." http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7018/rexsig24nq9ky.png

Nick

Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 235
Location: Over the hills and far away

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:58 am Post subject:

Stark wrote:

If i mouse over from grid A to grid B, will i be told the number of AP spent should i make such a move?

Yep. If you meant the "current PC's position" under "grid A".

Human Shield wrote:

Has the movement always been based on squares or was it free movement before in a real radius?

A long-long time ago, in a galaxy far-far away... when AoD was based on my old 2D engine, we had a tile-based maps. And our current engine (seriously modified Torque) inherits that system as well. Besides, TGE had everything to make distance-based system work. So now we have both of them. Just need to pick one Smile

Human Shield wrote:

You could put in a colored overlay for ranged weapons.

Sure.

deus wrote:

Go back to distance-based movement. It's its incredibly frustrating and nonsensical to have movement distance cut in half if I want to move at a 45 degree angle.

Cutting diagonal movement's distance in a half isn't an unbreakable law. IMO, it's not a serious enough reason to refuse from grid-based system, which gives so many advantages. So, do you have any thoughts about fixing that "frustrating and nonsensical" problem? Does anyone else consider it frustrating? Speak your mind, people, good ideas are always appreciated.

JaheiraRocks wrote:

I like the grid style, but it could be made a little bit more subtle.

Maybe making it more translucent and toning down the colours a bit (less saturation) whould help.

Easy. It would be good to hear more opinions, though.

HanoverF wrote:

I dont really like the grid, kinda uglies it up, if at all possible I'd suggest going for a premovement footstep/target cursor dealy like Jagged Alliance had

That's possible too, we thought about it. Though, that system is less visually helpful than grid.
Grid allows you to quickly estimate your position, see the place you can reach. And you had to click an area in JA to see the footsteps.
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Shagnak
Shagadelic

Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 4451
Location: Arse of the world, New Zealand

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:00 am Post subject:

On the one hand I like it - it makes the combat seem more tactical; but on the other hand it makes it look too...clinical, I guess. A look that would better suited to a sci-fi TB combat game or something. I was okay with the original reach indicators, i.e. I preferred "distance-based". _________________ Proud leader of the Shit Games Liberation Front All your shit games are belong to us

puppyonastik

Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 128
Location: Northern Illinois

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:09 am Post subject:

To make the grid more suble, I suggest making the squares just the colored outlines, much like fallout's hex cursor when you are selecting your destinaton. Edit: Noticed the outlines in your screenshots are perfectly (imho) thin. Hope that helps.

Vault Dweller
Ubersturmfuhrer

Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 15337
Location: Vault 13

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:

Damn! Can you people try to act like a hive mind for a minute? What's with all those different opinions? sigh Anyway, we have 2 systems at the moment: distance-based (see previous screens) and grid-based. Both could be improved further. So, speak up now (or shut the fuck up later ). Here is my take on it: in TB grid rulez. Distance-based systems aren't precise enough, they are more automated, more "let us handle it for you, and don't worry about it" systems. In both ToEE and JA moving and planning your moves was less important and less tactical than it was in the Realms of Arkania games, for example. Even something as simple as limiting short reach weapons to straight squares, while allowing longer reach weapons to hit the diagonal squares adds a bit of tactical depth. _________________ Spazmo: Odds are, something you like very much sucks. Why? Because this is RPG Codex.

Vault Dweller
Ubersturmfuhrer

Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 15337
Location: Vault 13

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:19 am Post subject:

Shagnak wrote:

On the one hand I like it - it makes the combat seem more tactical; but on the other hand it makes it look too...clinical, I guess.

Tactics vs ... don't even know what you traded tactics for, you, tactics-hater, you lol

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Spazmo: Odds are, something you like very much sucks. Why? Because this is RPG Codex.

Vault Dweller
Ubersturmfuhrer

Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 15337
Location: Vault 13

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:21 am Post subject:

puppyonastik wrote:

To make the grid more suble, I suggest making the squares just the colored outlines, much like fallout's hex cursor when you are selecting your destinaton.

Edit: Noticed the outlines in your screenshots are perfectly (imho) thin.

Hope that helps. Smile

We can try that. Thanks for caring and for finally joining us.
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Spazmo: Odds are, something you like very much sucks. Why? Because this is RPG Codex.

AnalogKid

Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 259
Location: SoCal

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:45 am Post subject:

Vault Dweller wrote:

Here is my take on it: in TB grid rulez. Distance-based systems aren't precise enough, they are more automated, more "let us handle it for you, and don't worry about it" systems. In both ToEE and JA moving and planning your moves was less important and less tactical than it was in the Realms of Arkania games, for example. Even something as simple as limiting short reach weapons to straight squares, while allowing longer reach weapons to hit the diagonal squares adds a bit of tactical depth.

How are distance based systems less precise? In grid systems all that happens is if your movement gets rounded down (e.g. for diagonals) then you can't even move a portion of a square. That seems far less precise to me.

I agree that a distance-based system should give feedback to the user. How about looking at something like Rome:Total War's movement options, where it calculates all the terrain penalties for you and then simply displays a shaded cloud of possible movmenet area? It would allow just as much planning as the displayed grids, but without the horrible artifacts created by having to occupy discreet squares. You could have two layers of shading, one for possible movement and one for move+attack (you could even add a running layer if you wanted to go overboard). All of this is easily displayable without a ridiculous HUD if you use the feet-path method mentioned earlier, but then you couldn't see all of your options at a glance. So I'd recommend various subtle shaded regions that are not restricted to grids. Best of both worlds!

As for the tactical depth created by allowing different weapons to reach farther, why doesn't that exist in a distance-based system? You'd just have to let polearms (for example) have a longer attack radius than shorter weapons. Again, you'd increase tactical options by allowing a whole range of subtle differences between weapons instead of just "1 square" and "2 square" categories.
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Experience to extremes..."-RUSH 'The Enemy Within'

obediah

Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 4968

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:20 am Post subject:

hexagons hexagons hexagons hexagons please, please, please - they get rid of so much of the diagonal wonkiness.

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