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Vault Dweller
Ubersturmfuhrer

Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 15337
Location: Vault 13

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:55 pm Post subject: Characters in iso mode

Link Top to bottom: light fighter, assassin, loremaster (that's a magnifying glass on his staff and a chakram in his hand), heavy fighter A question for you, guys. The heavy fighter has a 2H sword in one hand. That's something that we are playing right now with. The way I see it a strong character (Str>8) should be able to use a 2H weapon in one hand with 30% of the skill value penalty (i.e. if your sword skill is 80, your accuracy with a 2H sword is 56, if the skill is 200, the accuracy is 140, etc). What do you think? _________________ Spazmo: Odds are, something you like very much sucks. Why? Because this is RPG Codex.

Whipporowill
Nude Kid On the Block

Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 2955
Location: 59°19'03"N 018°02'15"E

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:36 pm Post subject:

Looking good. Yes. That's all. R00fles. _________________ Retired RPG Codex Newshound Eye On Troika - R.I.P The Eyesore & other old crap The Super Bowl, which I guess is happening today, is sort of like the Oscars for people who are still impressed by fire. - Devin Faraci, CHUD

Major_Blackhart
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Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 5223
Location: Jersey for now

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:34 pm Post subject:

Fucking Nasty man, and I mean that in a good way. _________________ Well, it's not quite a mop, and it's not quite a puppet, but man oh man. Nicolai wrote "You are the worst person ever, Blackhart." http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7018/rexsig24nq9ky.png

Vault Dweller
Ubersturmfuhrer

Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 15337
Location: Vault 13

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:35 pm Post subject:

Thanks, Major _________________ Spazmo: Odds are, something you like very much sucks. Why? Because this is RPG Codex.

Human Shield

Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Posts: 2027
Location: VA, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:18 am Post subject:

Is that the correct zoom of the camera? I'd like to see them farther out and the camera more overhead. Light fighter looks bad-ass. Assassin looks wierdish in that green, too light make it darker or black. Loremaster looks cool, nice rugged explorer feel. Staff give bonuses to examining stuff? I like the pouches and items. Heavy fighter tower shield and sword look great and his body looks better, but his helmet looks too wide compared to others, looks like chubby marsmellow head. _________________ Axes are Blunt Weapons, Silly.

Vault Dweller
Ubersturmfuhrer

Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 15337
Location: Vault 13

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:37 am Post subject:

Human Shield wrote:

Is that the correct zoom of the camera? I'd like to see them farther out and the camera more overhead.

Could be arranged.

Quote:

Loremaster looks cool, nice rugged explorer feel.

Thanks

Quote:

Staff give bonuses to examining stuff?

Yep. Could be upgraded to have different applications, i.e. source of light, etc.

Quote:

Heavy fighter tower shield and sword look great and his body looks better, but his helmet looks too wide compared to others, looks like chubby marsmellow head.

You are probably right. It's supposed to be that way, but it gives that character a weird look. Anyway, there are other heavy helmets that fit much better.
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Spazmo: Odds are, something you like very much sucks. Why? Because this is RPG Codex.

Section8
Synaesthete

Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 4309
Location: Wardenclyffe

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:55 am Post subject:

What's the angle of elevation? It seems to be fairly shallow, which gives a bigger bias toward the view range in the direction the camera is looking. In a 3D game, that compells the player to want to be able to align that with the direction they're moving in. Which in turn necessitates easy manipulation of the camera, or some kind of automation. Still, it does show off the characters nicely for the cosplayers.

Quote:

A question for you, guys. The heavy fighter has a 2H sword in one hand. That's something that we are playing right now with. The way I see it a strong character (Str>8) should be able to use a 2H weapon in one hand with 30% of the skill value penalty (i.e. if your sword skill is 80, your accuracy with a 2H sword is 56, if the skill is 200, the accuracy is 140, etc). What do you think?

Sounds like a reasonable choice to me, since a sword is a sword, and the only thing that forces humans to use two-handers as such is a strength limitation. I'd only suggest that maybe the penalty decreases as a product of ( (required strength for weapon) - (character strength) ), and maybe something else could be used to abstract the penalty rather than accuracy (damage and speed seem like likely candidates).

But, that's just an opinion given without consideration to the balance of the rest of the system, or any knowledge of the game mechanics. Wink

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Vault Dweller
Ubersturmfuhrer

Joined: 07 Jan 2003
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Location: Vault 13

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:06 am Post subject:

I was thinking about adding an extra Action Point to slow attacks a bit. _________________ Spazmo: Odds are, something you like very much sucks. Why? Because this is RPG Codex.

Greatatlantic
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Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 1684
Location: The Heart of It All

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:25 am Post subject:

The question that comes to my mind is how handicapped is a lore master when it comes to combat and the game. A lot of games offer a thief or other class, only to have it be a very weak fighter with one or two bonuses that hardly compensate for the lack of combat ability. I know you're trying to offer different ways of solving quests, but even fallout realized avoiding all combat in a violent world wasn't easily done. _________________ "All this is pure speculation with no basis in reality, of course.." - Leonard Boyarsky DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in the above post are for entertainment purposes only, namely my entertainment. They may or may not represent the views of RPGCodex, its staff, or this poster.

Human Shield

Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Posts: 2027
Location: VA, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:44 am Post subject:

I'm thinking the attributes that make a good loremaster (int, etc..) will make good alchemy. And there are more nonviolent ways to solve things, since loremasters can get rich from a find they can pay people off. _________________ Axes are Blunt Weapons, Silly.

Vault Dweller
Ubersturmfuhrer

Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 15337
Location: Vault 13

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:26 am Post subject:

Greatatlantic wrote:

The question that comes to my mind is how handicapped is a lore master when it comes to combat and the game. A lot of games offer a thief or other class, only to have it be a very weak fighter with one or two bonuses that hardly compensate for the lack of combat ability.

It's a skill-based system, your loremaster would be as effective in combat and other areas as you'd make him. Unlike other games though, the combat is not the focus of the game, so your thief and loremaster aren't forced to fight.

Quote:

I know you're trying to offer different ways of solving quests, but even fallout realized avoiding all combat in a violent world wasn't easily done.

It depends on implementation. Take a look at the old screens, that should give you an idea.

Human Shield wrote:

I'm thinking the attributes that make a good loremaster (int, etc..) will make good alchemy.

And crafting

Quote:

And there are more nonviolent ways to solve things

There are many non-violent ways to solve things.
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Walks with the Snails

Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 2443
Location: The Lone Star State

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:32 am Post subject:

I guess I have a certain fascination with the assassin. He still looks a little too... obvious. The metal rings on the outside look like they've been de-shined, which is better, but then someone looking at them in the open would still start to wonder about the fellow. He looks like a highwayman that prefers to strike at night. If that's a genuine character option, cool, then the armor is associated more with bandits rather than assassins. Maybe if he had something really sneaky and roguish like D&D brigandine (metal strips sandwiched between leather or cloth to silence and conceal them while still offering decent protection), it would be better. I can see the desire for some degree of protection since no plan is foolproof, but the assassin's best friend should always be the element of surprise. I don't know how hard it would be to implement, but maybe assassins should get a bonus to their chances for a clean kill if they dress the part (look like a loremaster to walk into someone's house, start up a light conversation, and slip poison in their drink while admiring their artwork; dress in heavy armor to impersonate a soldier and get close to a centurion, etc.). An assassin who just saunters around town all the time dressed up like a bandit is most likely destined to be laughed at by his peers and enjoy a rather short career.

callehe

Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 454
Location: Gothic Castle

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:02 am Post subject:

Looking very good VD! Just one question, since it's 3d now, will all types of equipment be represented by character onscreen? That would give a nice diablo 2 touch to the game _________________ www.pentrix.com Learn the Art of Pen Spinning

ichpokhudezh

Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Posts: 179
Location: germantown, md

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Characters in iso mode

Vault Dweller wrote:

This does not seem right to me.
Why would accuracy suffer as long as one is _able_ to hold & swing that thing? On the other hand, the Str requirement should be doubled at least and Dex one (if you have it) should be increased somewhat. I was thinking double wield should suffer as well, but it seems now that it's actually the other way round - double wield (2 weapons) would improve balance, while shield will be mostly useless for protection (need to throw it to the back for balance), but might be used for bashing.

Vault Dweller wrote:

I was thinking about adding an extra Action Point to slow attacks a bit.

This might be good.
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Vault Dweller
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Location: Vault 13

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Characters in iso mode

ichpokhudezh wrote:

This does not seem right to me.
Why would accuracy suffer as long as one is _able_ to hold & swing that thing?

I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that it's much easier to hit something with what you can wield easily vs with what you can barely hold. The STR requirement doesn't mean that you can use a 2H weapon as easily as one can use a short sword. It means that you are stronger than most, but not a titan.

Quote:

I was thinking double wield should suffer as well...

There is no double wield in the traditional sense. What you can do is equip a sword (5AP) and a dagger (3AP), and if you have 8 AP per turn (1Dex=1AP), you can attack once with a sword, and once with a dagger. The Fallout style, basically.

callehe wrote:

Looking very good VD!

Thanks

Quote:

Just one question, since it's 3d now, will all types of equipment be represented by character onscreen?

All 25 weapons are modelled and would be shown on your character. Same goes for 4 shields types, 6 armor types (at the moment), 6 helmets, the hood, 4 plain clothes types (citizen, merchant, loremaster, nobleman), and that's pretty much it, I think. We have capes as an inventory items, but we haven't tried to model/animate them yet, and probably won't. Different metals (i.e. steel armor, bronze armor, iron sword, etc) would be shown too, so you can take a look at your opponent and figure out how tough he is, especially if you see that he's holding a 2H hammer in one hand :wink:
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Vault Dweller
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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:04 pm Post subject:

Walks with the Snails wrote:

I guess I have a certain fascination with the assassin. He still looks a little too... obvious.

That's what I like about him too, and that's how it should be. Assassins operate openly, it's a respected craft. Think of lawyers, for example. They don't hide from you, they can be nice and pleasant, but the moment someone decides to sue you, that lawyer is after you. Nothing personal, it's business. Same here.

Quote:

He looks like a highwayman that prefers to strike at night. If that's a genuine character option, cool, then the armor is associated more with bandits rather than assassins.

Depends on your assassin. You may have an assassin that poses as a noble or a loremaster (disguise skill kicks in) to slip poison like you said (a female can even do the poison kiss), whereas a fighting fella may decide that ambushing someone at night is the way to go. You may initiate conversations and lead your prey to a ruined building or outside the city walls, etc.
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OverrideB1

Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 443
Location: The other side of the mirror

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject:

I like the look of the Loremaster very much and the Heavy Fighter looks almost as cool.

I'm not sure about the Light Fighter though: that helm really does look oversized and heavy for a fighter that is basically relying on speed and desterity. Perhaps something like these might be better suited?

I like the Assassin, although I think that the outfit is a little too obvious. I've not finished reading all of the threads about AoD so I'm not sure if assassin is viewed as an "honourable" occupation or not. If it is, then there'd be no problem in going about dressed as an assassin ~ although I suspect that it would make most people very leery of speaking to you (or even approaching you).
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ichpokhudezh

Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Posts: 179
Location: germantown, md

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Characters in iso mode

Vault Dweller wrote:

ichpokhudezh wrote:

This does not seem right to me.
Why would accuracy suffer as long as one is _able_ to hold & swing that thing?

1. Wouldn't the same (progressive improvement in handling of a tool as one becomes more adapted/fit to use it) apply for a regular sword though? Why treat some other (while it might be longer and/or heavier) weapon differently?

2. I assume a 2h sword should already have pretty high Str requirement (above most). Double that makes you much more that "most" (the 'titan' could be too strong of a word, but an 'ogre' might fit).

Vault Dweller wrote:

Quote:

I was thinking double wield should suffer as well...

So how do you figure that a char have 2h weapon equipped as 1h? By looking if they have a shield/an item equipped?
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Last edited by ichpokhudezh on Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

hiciacit

Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 389

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:38 pm Post subject:

Looking very good overall! The only thing I don't like is whatever it is the assissin is holding. Looks like something to mow the lawn... PS: Will the ability to wield a two-handed weapon dependent on the strength level? By this I mean a character with STR=8 would have a 30% skill penalty, but a character with STR=9 might have a 25% penalty.

Vault Dweller
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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:51 pm Post subject:

hiciacit wrote:

Looking very good overall! The only thing I don't like is whatever it is the assissin is holding. Looks like something to mow the lawn...

It's a khopesh, Egyptian sickle-sword. Fits the period. Bonus against lightly armored opponents.

Quote:

PS: Will the ability to wield a two-handed weapon dependent on the strength level? By this I mean a character with STR=8 would have a 30% skill penalty, but a character with STR=9 might have a 25% penalty.

Sure, good idea.
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Vault Dweller
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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Characters in iso mode

ichpokhudezh wrote:

There is a difference between becoming better with certain things as reflected by skill values in games and using an object that's just too heavy to be used without restrictions. Your skills would reduce the penalty though, which is the best way to handle such things, imo.

Quote:

2. I assume a 2h sword should already have pretty high Str requirement (above most). Double that makes you much more that "most" (the 'titan' could be too strong of a word, but an 'ogre' might fit).

There are no Str requirements in the game. It's used now only to determine whether your character is strong enough to use a 2H weapon in one hand

Quote:

So how do you figure that a char have 2h weapon equipped as 1h? By looking if they have a shield/an item equipped?

Each weapon model is unique. You've seen some screenshots, so I believe you saw the different models for short swort, sickle sword, curved sword, and 2H sword. In the game you'd recognize what characters are holding, as the weapon models are very distinctive.
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Vault Dweller
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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject:

OverrideB1 wrote:

I like the look of the Loremaster very much and the Heavy Fighter looks almost as cool.

Thanks

Quote:

I'm not sure about the Light Fighter though: that helm really does look oversized and heavy for a fighter that is basically relying on speed and desterity.

It's very gladiatorish. I don't have my game files at work, so here is what a quick Google search brought me:
http://romegiftshop.com/thheii.html - it's looks too decorated as it's from a gift shop, but you get the idea. Here is that famous painting http://www.murphsplace.com/gladiator/glads.html - That's one big ass helmet, but hey, when in Rome... lol

Quote:

Perhaps something like these might be better suited?

We have more traditional Roman/Greek helmets, we have 6 helmets in total now

Quote:

If it is, then there'd be no problem in going about dressed as an assassin ~ although I suspect that it would make most people very leery of speaking to you (or even approaching you).

See the example above about lawyers. You don't jump and start running when one approaches you, do you? Yet you never know when one will strike. lol

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ichpokhudezh

Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Posts: 179
Location: germantown, md

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Characters in iso mode

Vault Dweller wrote:

So, is a weak char penalized (skill/accuracy-wise) for wielding a long sword beyond the 'usual' Str-dependent damage penalty?

Vault Dweller wrote:

There are no Str requirements in the game. It's used now only to determine whether your character is strong enough to use a 2H weapon in one hand

I've lost you, let me step back.
Are you saying that you haven't got Str requirements before (so anybody could use any weapon), but now you are introducing them into the system just to have players be able to one-hand-equip a 2h melee weapon?

Vault Dweller wrote:

Quote:

So how do you figure that a char have 2h weapon equipped as 1h? By looking if they have a shield/an item equipped?

Oh, no, I meant how a player would specify via the interface whether he wants this 2h melee weapon (say, halberd, if you have them) wielded one-handedly or in both hands ('normally')? I don't think you could equip an item in Fallout in different ways ( e.g, a flamethrower).
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Vault Dweller
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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Characters in iso mode

ichpokhudezh wrote:

So, is a weak char penalized (skill/accuracy-wise) for wielding a long sword beyond the 'usual' Str-dependent damage penalty?

Str/Dex/Per values define the starting combat skill values. A strong character would start much more proficient in combat than a character focused on mental attributes. Later on skills development may erase the difference.

Quote:

Yes. It's a thought, not a final feature yet. While the art guys are pumping out 3D stuff I'm playing with mechanics. The reason is, I hate artificial restrictions. I don't want to tell people "Thou shalt not use 2H weapons in one hand, because I, the almight designer, coded so" It should be a player's choice.

Quote:

Ah, I see. My mistake. Put something in another hand: shield, throwing net, medkit, dagger, etc
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Spazmo: Odds are, something you like very much sucks. Why? Because this is RPG Codex.

ichpokhudezh

Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Posts: 179
Location: germantown, md

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Characters in iso mode

Vault Dweller wrote:

Quote:

you haven't got Str requirements before (so anybody could use any weapon), but now you are introducing them into the system just to have players be able to one-hand-equip a 2h melee weapon?

Hmm, so could the same principle applied in reverse? I.e. a char holding a dagger with two hands has a boost to skill/damage?

Vault Dweller wrote:

Quote:

how a player would specify via the interface whether he wants this 2h melee weapon (say, halberd, if you have them) wielded one-handedly

Ah, I see. My mistake. Put something in another hand: shield, throwing net, medkit, dagger, etc

How would one choose a combo of 2h-weapon held as 1h + HtH attack option?
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