Game News Cyclopean Canceled

Kosmonaut · Sep 25, 2010

Wang Lo said:
Yeah no fucking kidding, because my post was not about cyclopean at all, and I never mention it at all.

Neither do I.

Wang Lo said:
My post was in response to mondblut's plan and some of the other comments about software engineering.

OK.

Wang Lo said:
All the things you come back with come down to learn to program. Yep, that's about all there is to it.

But learning to program is an iterative process; if you think that programming is just like climbing a mountain, where you get to the top and that's it, then you sir, are a dumbfuck. You can be very proficient in your language of choice or techniques, but you should never stop learning :captainobvious:

Wang Lo said:
If you don't you are just wasting your time. You don't need to be some genius but you can't make a game in word document.

Gee, thanks. That's some wisdom pearls that I never happen to know :roll:

Wang Lo said:
The whole idea of a game designer just won't work out too well for an indie game anyway, for reasons stated. And, why would someone work without input? I'll tell you flat out no one will work that way for at least practical reasons like there will be obvious mistakes everywhere.

So, the fucking Age of Decadence is just a lie? A collective hallucination? And how are you so sure that indie game designers don't function? What reasons were stated? Point me to them please.

Wang Lo said:
So if you want to be a game designer, it's really like an IT analyst. You can also do that but again you have to learn how to program a bit to do this to any good degree.

So we are assuming that Douchebag Dweller doesn't know shit about programming? Wasn't he supposed to be working on some scripting? Did he personally acknowledge that don't know shit about programming? But I concur with you anyway. It's way more easy to work with a designer that knows programming, that with one that doesn't. But I disagree that it's impossible, por reasons stated (LOL).

Wang Lo said:
As for AoD being done, I have played demo and it seems very incomplete to me.

It was a fucking combat demo, genius. What did you expected? A fucking Jeff Vogel demo?

Wang Lo said:
I have thought all along polishing meant you know, like fiddling with stats, changing functionality. But even a year after first demo I get crashes, and there's lots of little bugs with interface.

That's great to know man. I'm pretty sure you told the AoD team about those small bugs right?

Wang Lo said:
Even a first prototype that unstable would worry the fuck out of me. This is like 8 years into development now, 6 years of which has been this polishing we hear about.

And why do you take it personal? Is like you are investing in the game or something. Don't worry. If something goes wrong they'll take another eight years and polish the shit out of the demo.

Wang Lo said:
After playing demo, I am not sure this game will ever get released. That is my professional opinion as an outsider.

That's possible. I mean, look at Duke Nukem Forever. But why does it bother you that much?

Wang Lo said:
The obvious bugs are the easy ones to sort out, this doesn't even count quest logic, the kind of bugs I expected there to be. That kind of crap is a hundred times harder to fix than some random lockups, depending on the cause.

Bugs are hard to fix. Now that's a novelty my friend. And yes I know that the quest logic is harder to modify. The changes ripple across all the system. But we don't really know how many of those bugs are in the game.

Wang Lo said:
But when you have things in a rickety state, you are just fucked. It is not easy to figure out why shit is ALMOST working. ALMOST working code is the worst code you can have, it is like having gremlins on the plane tearing it apart in flight.

Are you talking about your project? Or about AoD. Did Nick let you take a peek at his code repository? That would be pretty cool. But as you just told. ALMOST working code is something that affects every fucking complex project out there. Your are making it like is something exclusive of ITS game.

Wang Lo said:
My opinion of torque in general is probably ricketiest product ever made, so maybe the use of torque is much of the problem?

I concur. Torque is not that great product. But is relatively cheap and friendly.

Wang Lo said:
Anyway, like 4 years ago people were saying it would be released any day now...

Well, obviously the target date was missed. Hardly something rare in this industry. Or are you implying that is something that just happen to AoD?

Wang Lo said:
...and I was skeptical but even I thought by now it must be close but now I wonder if it is a doomed project.

We just don't know. Until it's either canceled or released.

Wang Lo said:
Especially since torque is now abandoned. No one is going to make that crumbly engine work with directX 11...

And this how does affect them? I mean they could just move to another engine vendor in their next project (big if, obviously).

Wang Lo said:
...and with windows 8...

LOL WUT?

Wang Lo said:
I can port a game engine to linux i 4 days (have done so)

And here we go with the "I'm a fucking genius programmer.

Wang Lo said:
...but making it WORK would be a five year undertaking. It doesn't even work with windows ultimate and directx 9 properly, and probably never will.

Are we talking here about your four days port? Torque Engine? or AoD?

Wang Lo said:
There's a fucking hoard of unresolved bugs in all versions of torque, and lots of other problems that have no real explanation or show the new programmers just don't know how to make correct rendering code.

Wow. Big fucking project have a shitload of bugs! How riveting! Regardless... Yes Torque is shit.

Wang Lo said:
So maybe they will move to torque3D? I don't know, seems likely and then the engine change will put the game out another 100 years.

Yeah, clever joke right there.

Wang Lo said:
But after all the times of VD coming out like some fucking expert on software dev and then seeing that result it was pretty priceless.

Again, you are focusing only in VD Are you secretly in love with him? Is he the protagonist of you deepest desires and fantasies?

Wang Lo said:
If AoD is great, great. If AoD even comes out, I am maybe 50/50 at this point, but that's not easy to judge from outside.

Not easy to judge from the outside. Yet you keep making assumptions about it. Great.

Wang Lo said:
But if even the basics are rickety and buggy then the real playtesting is going to be a nightmare.

Their nightmare. Why should you care?

Wang Lo said:
Playtesting is not about DOES BASIC SOFTWARE WORK? It's assumed that is the case or no one would be releasing this product (or would go out of business soon after, and/or get sued). Playtesting is mostly there for the game logic and to make sure of things like correct content (or any content) shows up.

And how do you know that they don't know this? Or this is something that only you dominate and everybody else is lacking? Or this is just another one of your "assumptions from the outside"?

Wang Lo said:
So will it come out? Hopefully but I am not holding my breath.

Neither do I. Just kidding... I'm hoping that it will come next Thursday.

Azrael the cat · Sep 25, 2010

Wang Lo said:
Azrael the cat said:

Wang Lo said:

Of course, and that's just one reason why you should never take anyone's words as the ultimate authority. And even if I were John Carmack it's not like I'd come out and say that right? If you say word retarded anywhere but an anon forum you get 7 emails before you reload the page saying what an utter bastard you are. I got nothing against nick and oscar, and the only issue I have with vd is I can see the salesman perk image every fucking time he talks and I don't believe for a second he is on any side but his own self promotion.

But that is a red herring. My point was you can't just be really good at some random subject (if that's even the case, most projects are a joke) and make great software at one go about it. There's also just no fucking reason someone would ever put up with that sort of relationship, except in the one in a million case you agree with every word someone says or you have a charismatic leader able to manipulate others into going along with all his ideas or even beliving they are the ones who came up with them. But no war gets won by charismatic leaders, they get won with rifleman.

Nothing I say goes against what's taught about software engineering in school, or against popular opinion for software in general. If you made something like that it would be years of editing and bullshit to get it into line with something that can work at all, and in the end there's still be many things wrong, guaranteed. For a two or three year project often there is 10 years of fucking around before it even starts, and that's with analysts that at least kind of know something of programming and of the domain area. People just can't work without something to see, even when you have made similar software and have experience it is not easy to make a working design beforehand, but no one is going to do it without any knowledge or experience.

Click to expand...

I hope your programming is better than your reading comprehension. There are plenty of posts - probably an easy majority of folks here - who are approaching AoD with cautious 'let's see it if/when it materialises' skepticism. We just don't see any reason to view you with even greater skepticism. As unpolished as the AoD demo was, it has the benefit of existing and being publically available for examination. Your game does not. So whatever skepticism is warranted for AoD (and I'm pretty skeptical of all indie projects given the extremely low ratio of quality:shite), ought to be multiplied for your game. After all, you haven't even been able to produce a buggy, unpolished demo for public viewing, and until you do produce something folks can actually examine there's no reason not to lump you in with the hundreds of other indie developers who have come here, boasted about how great their game is going to be, and then either never finished the game at all (mostly never even STARTED the game) or produced utter shite.

So yes, folks should be skeptical of indie projects until they actually materialse. That includes yours.

Click to expand...

Hey genius, I already said this is not a marketing program I have started here. I also know just how done my game isn't, and just how done it is. It has much less content than AOD, especially if it's true it has as much text as torment (which seems hard to credit given the seeming simplicity of the factions and described texts unless it's mostly filler word porn).

I don't expect anyone to suck my cock, the whole point is the opposite. If I wanted attention I'd become a tranny like SMA and start up a game forum to trickle out details of how fucking great I am, and about how great some conversation is because you can get that troll's key in like 500 ways. I don't have supeiority complex like cleve, I am a normal guy and part of my point was to say you get places BY WORK, not by being smart or having special secret cleve powers. No doubt some here would bash on my lack of art direction, or the genericness of my characters, but I have results that are good enough for me and I have studied art and lighting extensively and do life studies half an hour a day to improve my eye so I may not be pablo picasso but I have results better than I thought I could ever do, and on programming side things are more solid than I ever hoped for. Also, for proportions and weight in animation it turns out having a computerlike brain makes things much easier.

VD, you are a professional bullshitter. I am a professional codebot, and all your bullshit is easy for me to spot because my codebot mind saves and analyzes past and present statements on the fly and no one in history has tripped that bullshit alarm more than you, aside from bethesda employees of course but when you read a press release it is their job to spice things up and put the best face on things but your bullshit and weasling and backpedalling on forums is another story, especially talking over your head all day long every day about subjects you have no fucking clue about. Well guess what? A real dev is posting here today, your fondest desire. Hope that clears things up.

And why I come from the woodwaork now? Because I am done. Well, 'done'. Now it's all content, and my stressful time is past so I have time to correct incorrect statements to my heart's content. And now that I am 'done' I see AoD and it's not any more 'done' than when I started! I have been working less than half the time for god's sake, also mostly in spare time.

Then why post about it at all. No-one, NO-ONE, ever 'just happens' to mention in a post that they've got some game they're making, and oh by the way it's nearly finished and way better than [insert game here]. Are you the kind of moron who goes around saying 'I just came out of my meeting with the other firm partners the other day, and we took my Alpha Romeo to lunch', and then thinks that people are impressed by your job/car instead of thinking 'that douche must be really desperate for attention'. Here's a piece of social advice that might come in handy. Nobody ever falls for that shit. When you 'just happen' to mention your game or job or car or holiday in an internet post, everyone knows that you're doing it as a way of boasting about how great it is. Nobody thinks you're being subtle about it. They might cut you some slack because, hey, everyone does that from time to time. But when you 'just happen' to mention the game you're working on, you should expect to either put up some proof or be derided as yet another Team Gizka.

Besides, what on earth makes you think you're the only one who can make a finished game around here? Even from what you've said it sounds pretty average, especially compared to my game, and you don't hear me boasting about that. I've finsihed the thing too - actually finished - with Activision and Bethesda begging me for publication rights. I'm pretty happy with it in its current state, but I'm not personally ready to publish. I'm only making this thing for myself, so I don't see any reason why I should provide a demo or actually publish the game instead of talking about it. But wow, you and VD would burn your entire projects if you realised just how far behind you are. Chris Avellone heard about it from a friend and I eventually relented and let him play for a few hours. Not all the way through - the game itself is around 120 hours for the main quest, but it's really designed as a ongoing epic, with the emergent gameplay from the complex interfactional AI giving rise to a world-simulation never-ending playstyle. Yes it's long, but everyone who has seen it assures me that they just can't get enough - in fact I'd be worried if it were shorter given how the play-testers keep threatening to kill themselves if they run out of gameplay, on the grounds that they just can't go back to their shallow ordinary lives after tasting greatness like that. Avellone himself cried for hours, before saying that all his life he's dreamt of writing something of that quality, just once.

Todd Howard got wind of it, and I wasn't keen on giving him a go but I figured he'd be a decent judge of its mass marketability. He says it's changed his views on gaming - that it will have even greater mass market appeal than TES, yet retain all the complexity of the RoA series.

I can also confidentally state that I have created the world's first genuine AI in a computer game, and that the NPCs will learn and respond with the intelligence of real people with the equivalent cultural location, intellect and knowledge. I can't release it in a demo or examinable form but I CAN confidentally state it.

I've had good feedback on the graphics as well - I might need to scale that back a bit though, as a few folks have said that the sheer immersiveness gives TOO big a psychological impact - whenever a bullet is fired at you it looks and almost feels like you've been shot in real life. Some folks have complained that it's a bit offputting not being able to tell the difference between the graphics on the computer screen and the view from looking out the window - it gives a sort of mental confusion effect from not being able to tell the graphics from real life vision. I have to say, I'm pretty damn smug about being able to get great frame rates and full graphical quality on even old 486 architecture, I guess other developers just never realised how much grunt you can get out of minimal processing power if you actually know how to code.

But anyway, I'm not really into talking myself up - I'm not here in marketing mode, just happened to mention it while pointing out what was wrong with your earlier post.

Melcar · Sep 25, 2010

Well, this thread turned gay. Took 8 pages, though; I´m disappoint.

Fowyr · Sep 25, 2010

Oh Azrael the cat, you are very awesome feline.

Wang Lo · Sep 25, 2010

Azrael the cat said:
Wang Lo said:

Azrael the cat said:

Wang Lo said:

Of course, and that's just one reason why you should never take anyone's words as the ultimate authority. And even if I were John Carmack it's not like I'd come out and say that right? If you say word retarded anywhere but an anon forum you get 7 emails before you reload the page saying what an utter bastard you are. I got nothing against nick and oscar, and the only issue I have with vd is I can see the salesman perk image every fucking time he talks and I don't believe for a second he is on any side but his own self promotion.

But that is a red herring. My point was you can't just be really good at some random subject (if that's even the case, most projects are a joke) and make great software at one go about it. There's also just no fucking reason someone would ever put up with that sort of relationship, except in the one in a million case you agree with every word someone says or you have a charismatic leader able to manipulate others into going along with all his ideas or even beliving they are the ones who came up with them. But no war gets won by charismatic leaders, they get won with rifleman.

Nothing I say goes against what's taught about software engineering in school, or against popular opinion for software in general. If you made something like that it would be years of editing and bullshit to get it into line with something that can work at all, and in the end there's still be many things wrong, guaranteed. For a two or three year project often there is 10 years of fucking around before it even starts, and that's with analysts that at least kind of know something of programming and of the domain area. People just can't work without something to see, even when you have made similar software and have experience it is not easy to make a working design beforehand, but no one is going to do it without any knowledge or experience.

Click to expand...

I hope your programming is better than your reading comprehension. There are plenty of posts - probably an easy majority of folks here - who are approaching AoD with cautious 'let's see it if/when it materialises' skepticism. We just don't see any reason to view you with even greater skepticism. As unpolished as the AoD demo was, it has the benefit of existing and being publically available for examination. Your game does not. So whatever skepticism is warranted for AoD (and I'm pretty skeptical of all indie projects given the extremely low ratio of quality:shite), ought to be multiplied for your game. After all, you haven't even been able to produce a buggy, unpolished demo for public viewing, and until you do produce something folks can actually examine there's no reason not to lump you in with the hundreds of other indie developers who have come here, boasted about how great their game is going to be, and then either never finished the game at all (mostly never even STARTED the game) or produced utter shite.

So yes, folks should be skeptical of indie projects until they actually materialse. That includes yours.

Click to expand...

Hey genius, I already said this is not a marketing program I have started here. I also know just how done my game isn't, and just how done it is. It has much less content than AOD, especially if it's true it has as much text as torment (which seems hard to credit given the seeming simplicity of the factions and described texts unless it's mostly filler word porn).

I don't expect anyone to suck my cock, the whole point is the opposite. If I wanted attention I'd become a tranny like SMA and start up a game forum to trickle out details of how fucking great I am, and about how great some conversation is because you can get that troll's key in like 500 ways. I don't have supeiority complex like cleve, I am a normal guy and part of my point was to say you get places BY WORK, not by being smart or having special secret cleve powers. No doubt some here would bash on my lack of art direction, or the genericness of my characters, but I have results that are good enough for me and I have studied art and lighting extensively and do life studies half an hour a day to improve my eye so I may not be pablo picasso but I have results better than I thought I could ever do, and on programming side things are more solid than I ever hoped for. Also, for proportions and weight in animation it turns out having a computerlike brain makes things much easier.

VD, you are a professional bullshitter. I am a professional codebot, and all your bullshit is easy for me to spot because my codebot mind saves and analyzes past and present statements on the fly and no one in history has tripped that bullshit alarm more than you, aside from bethesda employees of course but when you read a press release it is their job to spice things up and put the best face on things but your bullshit and weasling and backpedalling on forums is another story, especially talking over your head all day long every day about subjects you have no fucking clue about. Well guess what? A real dev is posting here today, your fondest desire. Hope that clears things up.

And why I come from the woodwaork now? Because I am done. Well, 'done'. Now it's all content, and my stressful time is past so I have time to correct incorrect statements to my heart's content. And now that I am 'done' I see AoD and it's not any more 'done' than when I started! I have been working less than half the time for god's sake, also mostly in spare time.

Click to expand...

Then why post about it at all. No-one, NO-ONE, ever 'just happens' to mention in a post that they've got some game they're making, and oh by the way it's nearly finished and way better than [insert game here]. Are you the kind of moron who goes around saying 'I just came out of my meeting with the other firm partners the other day, and we took my Alpha Romeo to lunch', and then thinks that people are impressed by your job/car instead of thinking 'that douche must be really desperate for attention'. Here's a piece of social advice that might come in handy. Nobody ever falls for that shit. When you 'just happen' to mention your game or job or car or holiday in an internet post, everyone knows that you're doing it as a way of boasting about how great it is. Nobody thinks you're being subtle about it. They might cut you some slack because, hey, everyone does that from time to time. But when you 'just happen' to mention the game you're working on, you should expect to either put up some proof or be derided as yet another Team Gizka.

Besides, what on earth makes you think you're the only one who can make a finished game around here? Even from what you've said it sounds pretty average, especially compared to my game, and you don't hear me boasting about that. I've finsihed the thing too - actually finished - with Activision and Bethesda begging me for publication rights. I'm pretty happy with it in its current state, but I'm not personally ready to publish. I'm only making this thing for myself, so I don't see any reason why I should provide a demo or actually publish the game instead of talking about it. But wow, you and VD would burn your entire projects if you realised just how far behind you are. Chris Avellone heard about it from a friend and I eventually relented and let him play for a few hours. Not all the way through - the game itself is around 120 hours for the main quest, but it's really designed as a ongoing epic, with the emergent gameplay from the complex interfactional AI giving rise to a world-simulation never-ending playstyle. Yes it's long, but everyone who has seen it assures me that they just can't get enough - in fact I'd be worried if it were shorter given how the play-testers keep threatening to kill themselves if they run out of gameplay, on the grounds that they just can't go back to their shallow ordinary lives after tasting greatness like that. Avellone himself cried for hours, before saying that all his life he's dreamt of writing something of that quality, just once.

Todd Howard got wind of it, and I wasn't keen on giving him a go but I figured he'd be a decent judge of its mass marketability. He says it's changed his views on gaming - that it will have even greater mass market appeal than TES, yet retain all the complexity of the RoA series.

I can also confidentally state that I have created the world's first genuine AI in a computer game, and that the NPCs will learn and respond with the intelligence of real people with the equivalent cultural location, intellect and knowledge. I can't release it in a demo or examinable form but I CAN confidentally state it.

I've had good feedback on the graphics as well - I might need to scale that back a bit though, as a few folks have said that the sheer immersiveness gives TOO big a psychological impact - whenever a bullet is fired at you it looks and almost feels like you've been shot in real life. Some folks have complained that it's a bit offputting not being able to tell the difference between the graphics on the computer screen and the view from looking out the window - it gives a sort of mental confusion effect from not being able to tell the graphics from real life vision. I have to say, I'm pretty damn smug about being able to get great frame rates and full graphical quality on even old 486 architecture, I guess other developers just never realised how much grunt you can get out of minimal processing power if you actually know how to code.

But anyway, I'm not really into talking myself up - I'm not here in marketing mode, just happened to mention it while pointing out what was wrong with your earlier post.

Because it's true. If you really knew, you'd feel like an incredible moron. I am only held back because it's like beating up a ten year old kid to pick on games like aod and eschalon, hardly good marketing. But after the millionth time of some asshat lecturing me on the software biz and having them turn out to not even know the very basics of programming, or be some college student or whatever it is hard to restrain myself.

But I don't mind a bit if you disbelieve me. It's funnier that way.

Wang Lo · Sep 25, 2010

Also, the other message is yes you can do things yourself. It doesn't take years of making technical documents or special design knowledge or something. Funny enough that is the message that really fails to set in because people like you have such a dose of the helpless gene they assume things are just impossible. Man NO ONE COULD DO THAT.

No one could do it because you tried and gave up after 3 weeks?

I know exactly why buzz aldrin gets into such a fucking rage about the moon hoax guys. You can't even get someone to believe things like you went to high school without a letter from the president.

Well, all I can think is losers always project their own failings onto everyone else, but the truth is if you fail at something it's probably due to lack of effort.

Wang Lo · Sep 25, 2010

The war on smug is never over. Somewhere, deep down, the smug parties out there know how full of shit they are or my achievements would not threaten them so much.

Kosmonaut · Sep 25, 2010

Wang Lo said:
The war on smug is never over. Somewhere, deep down, the smug parties out there know how full of shit they are or my achievements would not threaten them so much.

What achievements? Please describe them here. Put up or just shut the fuck up.

Radisshu · Sep 25, 2010

Clockwork Knight said:
Vault Dweller said:

Your professional opinion - as an outsider, whatever that is - is that you are not sure that the game will get released? That's your professional opinion as an outsider even though "it's not easy to judge from outside"? Makes sense.

Click to expand...

Professional codexer?

You mean like Volourn?

Forest Dweller · Sep 26, 2010

Why do you guys bother responding to this troll? Can't you see that's what he wants?

GarfunkeL · Sep 26, 2010

Hilarious thread :D

Wang Lo · Sep 26, 2010

Dicksmoker said:
Why do you guys bother responding to this troll? Can't you see that's what he wants?

I don't want attention I want us to all gather together and make a difference, through internet posts. We are changing history of gaming. We got spirit!

Lumpy · Sep 26, 2010

Now, I'm not saying that Wang Lo isn't a troll, but just in case: what exactly is the problem with VD's "business model"?
Not everybody can program. Not everybody can model. And not bloody everybody can design games. It takes writing skills, it takes knowledge of how to balance shit, knowledge of how to make stuff fun. Look and most games nowadays - they barely have any of those.

Of course, game ideas are dime a dozen - but game design goes way beyond that. Every Codexer can churn out a couple of settings, character systems, game plots, etc., but probably only a handful would be able to actually write that shit down into a game minus the programming and art.

Now, if anyone should come up with the idea, it's the designer. You can program something that isn't your pet project, but you can't really design it properly. So, of course it's Vince that always talks about the game - but that doesn't mean that the other guys are somehow "guns for hire".

obediah · Sep 26, 2010

Vault Dweller said:
Anyway, like 4 years ago people were saying it would be released any day now ...

Click to expand...

We've started working with TGE 5 years ago. Do you really think it takes a year to make a game, especially considering the lack of experience (as you've noted) and the part-time nature of the project?

Stay classy, VD. Your original release estimates were more than 5 years ago, and when switching to TGE you estimated a release within 4-16 months.

Vault Dweller · Sep 26, 2010

Lumpy said:
Now, I'm not saying that Wang Lo isn't a troll...

He kinda is. He is SeriousDev, RoachKiller, Sick "I'm very angry about VD" Bum, ALT267, and god knows how many other alts.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic ... 64#1281164

...but just in case: what exactly is the problem with VD's "business model"?

The problem is that he's very angry about VD. He read my posts, decided that the tyranny must be stopped, and joined the Codex to fight back.

:salute:

Kinda sad.

So, of course it's Vince that always talks about the game - but that doesn't mean that the other guys are somehow "guns for hire".

For the record, it's a group effort and it's our game. Not because it's a nice thing to say but because that's how it is. Oscar's or Nick's say has as much weight as my own. Oscar studies everything under a microscope and if he doesn't like something (like a dialogue sequence, for example), he sends it back to me or Nick (if it's something programming related) for changes. That's how we work. It's an equal partnership where we literally work together, discuss every aspect together, vote in case of disagreements, etc.

Vault Dweller · Sep 26, 2010

obediah said:
Vault Dweller said:

Anyway, like 4 years ago people were saying it would be released any day now ...

Click to expand...

We've started working with TGE 5 years ago. Do you really think it takes a year to make a game, especially considering the lack of experience (as you've noted) and the part-time nature of the project?

Click to expand...

Stay classy, VD. Your original release estimates were more than 5 years ago, and when switching to TGE you estimated a release within 4-16 months.

The question still stands.

I started putting some ideas together in 2004. Let's generously call it pre-production. We posted the first 2D screens in March 2005 and switched to Torque around June-July. Forget about AoD now. If a game with similar features was announced today, how long do you figure the development would take, if the team is inexperienced and is working part time?

Before you ask, yes, I'm guilty for being overly optimistic at first, overestimating something of which I knew very little about (contrary to popular beliefs, I've never claimed to be an expert on game development), and not realizing how long it takes to turn some something playable into something that's ready to be released. I've learned my lesson, so you can stop bringing it up now.

ironyuri · Sep 26, 2010

Vault Dweller said:
obediah said:

Vault Dweller said:

Anyway, like 4 years ago people were saying it would be released any day now ...

Click to expand...

We've started working with TGE 5 years ago. Do you really think it takes a year to make a game, especially considering the lack of experience (as you've noted) and the part-time nature of the project?

Click to expand...

Stay classy, VD. Your original release estimates were more than 5 years ago, and when switching to TGE you estimated a release within 4-16 months.

Click to expand...

The question still stands.

I started putting some ideas together in 2004. Let's generously call it pre-production. We posted the first 2D screens in March 2005 and switched to Torque around June-July. Forget about AoD now. If a game with similar features was announced today, how long do you figure the development would take, if the team is inexperienced and is working part time?

Before you ask, yes, I'm guilty for being overly optimistic at first, overestimating something of which I knew very little about (contrary to popular beliefs, I've never claimed to be an expert on game development), and not realizing how long it takes to turn some something playable into something that's ready to be released. I've learned my lesson, so you can stop bringing it up now.

Sounds like VD didn't even know what he didn't know.

:smug:

Wang Lo · Sep 26, 2010

Lumpy said:
Now, I'm not saying that Wang Lo isn't a troll, but just in case: what exactly is the problem with VD's "business model"?
Not everybody can program. Not everybody can model. And not bloody everybody can design games. It takes writing skills, it takes knowledge of how to balance shit, knowledge of how to make stuff fun. Look and most games nowadays - they barely have any of those.

Of course, game ideas are dime a dozen - but game design goes way beyond that. Every Codexer can churn out a couple of settings, character systems, game plots, etc., but probably only a handful would be able to actually write that shit down into a game minus the programming and art.

Now, if anyone should come up with the idea, it's the designer. You can program something that isn't your pet project, but you can't really design it properly. So, of course it's Vince that always talks about the game - but that doesn't mean that the other guys are somehow "guns for hire".

I don't think there's anything wrong with the "business model", the only thing wrong with the whole equation is VD is a total dumbass. It's funny the guy claims to be so humble one second but there's all these people he has been such an arrogant ass towards.

VD says he learned his lesson, thing is it's obvious he hasn't. Everything I thought all along has turned out to be 100% accurate about this project, except up til playing the demo I thought the fucking thing would at least get released some day but now I am doubtful and a dumbass like VD should not be so condescending towards someone who knows in very painful detail just what it takes to make solid software and who actually has made similar software.

Oscar and nick seem like fine fellows, if anything I have to wonder if it's time to send swat team in to free them from the compound.

I don't think it is simply impossible to join up with a team and make a game, but my original post was to point out you can't take someone who is not a software engineer and have them make a software engineering document.

So let's simplify this to nail down exactly what my points were.

1. People who don't know how to make software can't design software. This is pretty much fact. They can learn how or make a rough layout but they will never, ever make a useful design document to start with so going to that level of detail is an incredible waste of time.

2. Programming makes games happen. It is like the engine in a car, you can have placeholder art all you want but nonworking software is useless.

3. No one will program for you with no input into design, unless they are an idiot or you are some scary cult leader or cyberpreacher type of guy like VD. Not unless you can offer a full time job or else pay like a hundred or more bucks any hour, anyway.

4. Work makes games happen. I posted my own experiences to underscore this, not to aggrandize myself. I never claimed I made some high quality game. In fact I scrapped story entirely and started from scratch recently since I realized it just would not work out.

5. VD is a moron, more so than I even imagined, and I give about a 50/50 chance AoD comes out within 10 years in any kind of stable state after playing the demo. This is more an aside but we have a crumbly engine, software that is in a sad state, and a team leader who doesn't even get that even when the software itself is fully debugged is when the real playtestiing of things like quests and game balance etc. can even really start. Now it's funny to see the response I get to this but VD came out from almost the start with incredibly dumb comments about being done, and I have been right so far. Of course I never made my opinion public as I have up til now restrained myself, but my annoyance at VD and his stupid bullshit where he wraps the indie flag across his chest and sullies it for people making a game who actually know something annoys the fuck out of me. I don't want people to automatically think good game, for an indie, when I finally do release it.

And it turns out I do have some old placeholder art, the first animated character I made, ingame, which would not lead to revelation of my identity in future butthurt episodes down the line. So maybe I will post that some day if I can be assed.

Forest Dweller · Sep 26, 2010

Vault Dweller · Sep 26, 2010

Wang Lo said:
I don't think there's anything wrong with the "business model", the only thing wrong with the whole equation is VD is a total dumbass. It's funny the guy claims to be so humble one second but there's all these people he has been such an arrogant ass towards.
...
a dumbass like VD should not be so condescending towards someone who knows in very painful detail just what it takes to make solid software and who actually has made similar software.

Still butthurt, eh?

Here is some new material for you. You're a pathetic, obsessive little shit with illusions of grandeur and superiority, which is made more amusing by the fact that you keep making new alts once people start laughing at your current alt in a futile attempt not to be perceived as a trolling dumbfuck.

Everything I thought all along has turned out to be 100% accurate...

Of course it did. You know why? Because you're awesome!

1. People who don't know how to make software can't design software. This is pretty much fact. They can learn how or make a rough layout but they will never, ever make a useful design document to start with so going to that level of detail is an incredible waste of time.

Newsflash for dumbfucks: game design docs are done by designers, not programmers.

I think I'm beginning to see the problem. You're a butthurt programmer who can't imagine taking lead from someone who isn't a programmer and like a good dumbfuck you see absolutely no value in designers, which is clear from your previous posts. How cute.

2. Programming makes games happen. It is like the engine in a car, you can have placeholder art all you want but nonworking software is useless.

Newsflash #2 (I should be charging you for these lessons, but I want to show kindness to my retarded "archenemies", so...): without design there is no game, which is the main reason why we haven't heard about your amazing game. A well designed game running on a crappy engine is vastly preferred to a poorly designed game running on an AWSUM (TM) engine.

3. No one will program for you with no input into design, unless they are an idiot or you are some scary cult leader or cyberpreacher type of guy like VD. Not unless you can offer a full time job or else pay like a hundred or more bucks any hour, anyway.

Has anyone said that a programmer should have no input on design, o wise one?

4. Work makes games happen. I posted my own experiences to underscore this, not to aggrandize myself. I never claimed I made some high quality game. In fact I scrapped story entirely and started from scratch recently since I realized it just would not work out.

You know why? Because you're a shitty designer.

5. VD is a moron, more so than I even imagined, and I give about a 50/50 chance AoD comes out within 10 years in any kind of stable state after playing the demo. This is more an aside but we have a crumbly engine, software that is in a sad state, and a team leader who doesn't even get that even when the software itself is fully debugged is when the real playtestiing of things like quests and game balance etc. can even really start.

Have I ever made such claims?

And it turns out I do have some old placeholder art, the first animated character I made, ingame, which would not lead to revelation of my identity in future butthurt episodes down the line. So maybe I will post that some day if I can be assed.

Prosper? Is that you, son?

Lumpy · Sep 26, 2010

Wang Lo said:
I don't think it is simply impossible to join up with a team and make a game, but my original post was to point out you can't take someone who is not a software engineer and have them make a software engineering document.

So let's simplify this to nail down exactly what my points were.

1. People who don't know how to make software can't design software. This is pretty much fact. They can learn how or make a rough layout but they will never, ever make a useful design document to start with so going to that level of detail is an incredible waste of time.

Okay, I don't know shit about software engineering, but that is clearly bullshit. Game design is not software engineering. For some games, they may be interconnected. It'd take a team of designers-programmers to create a realistic physics based combat system, because you have to know both design goals and programming limitations. For a game like AoD*, they are not. The combat is turn based, and can be described mathematically - much like D&D's, designing it doesn't even require the existence of computers, much less knowledge of programming. VD hasn't implied the game requires complex scripting or events, so I presume he never asked for anything unreasonable. As for the dialogue/text adventure system, you'd have to be a moron to claim that it requires knowledge of programming to write something like that (again, not the case if you want emergent dialogues or something - not the case here).

As for the software engineering part - if I were a programmer willing to do hobby work on an indie game, I'd expect to have the freedom to at least design the software - I certainly wouldn't want programming goals handed down to me as to some random codemonkey.

Wang Lo said:
3. No one will program for you with no input into design, unless they are an idiot or you are some scary cult leader or cyberpreacher type of guy like VD. Not unless you can offer a full time job or else pay like a hundred or more bucks any hour, anyway.

Not implying that that is the case with AoD, but how so? I believe projects often work better when a single person, with a singular vision, makes the decisions, with the others using their veto if the leader does something wrong.

Wang Lo said:
And it turns out I do have some old placeholder art, the first animated character I made, ingame, which would not lead to revelation of my identity in future butthurt episodes down the line. So maybe I will post that some day if I can be assed.

I'm sure it is of utmost importance to you to keep your identity secret - who knows what would happen if we had some idea as to what the fuck you were actually doing?

*Based on my assumptions about AoD.

P.S. I've just realized how lame the whole "I'm not saying what game I'm working on because I don't want to advertise it." shtick is.
Sup guys I have a Nobel Prize but I can't tell you which one I don't want to brag.

Wang Lo · Sep 26, 2010

Lumpy said:
Wang Lo said:

I don't think it is simply impossible to join up with a team and make a game, but my original post was to point out you can't take someone who is not a software engineer and have them make a software engineering document.

So let's simplify this to nail down exactly what my points were.

1. People who don't know how to make software can't design software. This is pretty much fact. They can learn how or make a rough layout but they will never, ever make a useful design document to start with so going to that level of detail is an incredible waste of time.

Click to expand...

Okay, I don't know shit about software engineering, but that is clearly bullshit. Game design is not software engineering. For some games, they may be interconnected. It'd take a team of designers-programmers to create a realistic physics based combat system, because you have to know both design goals and programming limitations. For a game like AoD*, they are not. The combat is turn based, and can be described mathematically - much like D&D's, designing it doesn't even require the existence of computers, much less knowledge of programming. VD hasn't implied the game requires complex scripting or events, so I presume he never asked for anything unreasonable. As for the dialogue/text adventure system, you'd have to be a moron to claim that it requires knowledge of programming to write something like that (again, not the case if you want emergent dialogues or something - not the case here).

As for the software engineering part - if I were a programmer willing to do hobby work on an indie game, I'd expect to have the freedom to at least design the software - I certainly wouldn't want programming goals handed down to me as to some random codemonkey.

Wang Lo said:

3. No one will program for you with no input into design, unless they are an idiot or you are some scary cult leader or cyberpreacher type of guy like VD. Not unless you can offer a full time job or else pay like a hundred or more bucks any hour, anyway.

Click to expand...

Not implying that that is the case with AoD, but how so? I believe projects often work better when a single person, with a singular vision, makes the decisions, with the others using their veto if the leader does something wrong.

Wang Lo said:

And it turns out I do have some old placeholder art, the first animated character I made, ingame, which would not lead to revelation of my identity in future butthurt episodes down the line. So maybe I will post that some day if I can be assed.

Click to expand...

I'm sure it is of utmost importance to you to keep your identity secret - who knows what would happen if we had some idea as to what the fuck you were actually doing?

*Based on my assumptions about AoD.

P.S. I've just realized how lame the whole "I'm not saying what game I'm working on because I don't want to advertise it." shtick is.
Sup guys I have a Nobel Prize but I can't tell you which one I don't want to brag.

Like I said before, game designer is not what you think it means. It doesn't mean that you design the gameplay. It's like an IT analyst in a typical project. It took me a while to figure out what really they do, too, but it's basically a lower paid programmer who talks to users more and is a general worker with a little skill everywhere. If designing gameplay is really VD's job, he should be fired. The game system is like playing gothic but in turn based mode. It is a money saving device, not something brought about to improve quality.

I will post an edited screenshot later. Problem is anything I do people will claim is a lie or just say it's unbearably bad even though it's not but whatever.

Wang Lo · Sep 26, 2010

That is all I can do, I have cropped out interface elements and some identifying marks since I have enough butthurt to deal with in real life without encouraging more.

That is animated character I got within six months of knowing nothing about making 3d art. 2000 verts. In game but with interface and identifying marks cut out. I know I will get a bunch of stupid 'crits' now but the fact is no one else here has done all the work to put together a game like I have and to me that's just one of a dozen jobs I do.

hiver · Sep 26, 2010

Wang Lo said:
That is all I can do, I have cropped out interface elements and some identifying marks since I have enough butthurt to deal with in real life without encouraging more.

That is animated character I got within six months of knowing nothing about making 3d art. 2000 verts. In game but with interface and identifying marks cut out. I know I will get a bunch of stupid 'crits' now but the fact is no one else here has done all the work to put together a game like I have and to me that's just one of a dozen jobs I do.

Dicksmoker said:

FeelTheRads · Sep 26, 2010

That is all I can do

Didn't really expect more. :smug:

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