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What's the best post-Fall from Heaven mod?

hoverdog

dog that is hovering, Wastelands Interactive
Developer
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
5,589
Location
Jordan, Minnesota
Project: Eternity
I've installed Civ4. I've never played any FfH mod, and they are supposed to be good and complex.
Problem is, the original one spawned many further mods, and I've no idea which to pick. what is the best? The original one, wildmana, erebus, fall further, and probably a dozen more.
do you have any experiences and can recommend one?
 

catfood

AGAIN
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
9,373
Location
Nirvana for mice
I only really played Master of Mana but back then the main gripe was the excessive micromanagement which came from having to give each unit promotions and equipment. You can imagine what nightmare that was. Recently they revamped the whole equipment mechanic to only allow units which have reached a certain level to be able to aquire them. It has tons and tons of civs to choose from each with its unique feel but the problem was that the game had the tendancy to spawn some civs more than others when playing a fully randomised map, but perhaps that was also fixed by the recent patches.

Oh, there's STILL no manual for the mod even after all this time, so you either have to wing it (oldschool thirdworldian style) or go to the forums and look for guides for the new mechanics.
 

grotsnik

Arcane
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
1,671
Yeah, I enjoyed Master of Mana, which I moved on to directly after FFH2. Often over-fiddly in the finer details and completely lacking in transparency about various things (what the fuck do some of these spells do?) but it's pretty well crammed with content, variety and ideas.

Only vaguely related; the other week I stumbled onto a post-apocalyptic Civ4 mod, 'Fury Road', and gave that a go. It's not terribly good - often uninventive in its use of the base game, with a very limited tech tree and a distracting mix of Fallout rip-off material and modern Civ4 assets - but the base concept of building up your settlement by sending your squads of lead-pipe-wielding scavengers out into the desert to retrieve technology from the ruined pre-war military bases and abandoned cities filled with nasties is a solid fun idea. It could have worked really well.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,438
Location
Lost Hills bunker
I've installed Civ4. I've never played any FfH mod, and they are supposed to be good and complex.
Problem is, the original one spawned many further mods, and I've no idea which to pick. what is the best? The original one, wildmana, erebus, fall further, and probably a dozen more.
do you have any experiences and can recommend one?

Truly I think you're better off playing Master of Magic. It's not that I think FFH is bad though.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,438
Location
Lost Hills bunker
I've played Master of Magic to death. I'm waiting for the ziky overhaul mod to be released before I come back. But yes, MoM has no rivals really.

I mean I tried and liked FFH2 but always in later turns game crashed, I could never get pass turn I don't know 1050. Every game I started crashed at that particular turn and started tremendously slowing down after 100-th or so, I presume because of the much more units in the game. And I liked the original most, tried some of the mod-mods like Orbis, Erebus, but it just seemed FFH was superior, these just added mostly boring mechanics and bogged the game down even further with no real fun or value to them. So I quit playing it.

Also be sure if you find out which really is the best of these new mods I would appreciate if you posted here and let me know. Seems to me like most of them are dead. :? Too bad FFH has stopped developing, it was the best and had best team, ideas and implementation... :(

PS. I have the GOG version of Master of Magic, do I need any must have mods/unofficial patches to go with it?
 

Eyeball

Arcane
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
2,541
Master of Mana is pretty darn impressive and I like it a lot. The seperate research bar and casting system for "global" magics works fairly well and makes good use of the engine. It does suffer from some pretty severe balancing issues, however, and some things which are simply shittily implemented.

Most notably the resources and equipment system. Firstly, it doesn't work for the AI at all, doesn't give them any bonuses at the moment. Secondly, it's kinda of clipped-on in its current implementation and doesn't really affect gameplay enough to warrant keeping it in the game, especially considering how quarries provide a hammer more than mines for most of the game and lumber mills don't provide any type of production bonus, making generating much metal and lumber gimp your overall production. I don't feel it's feasible to play a hugely industrialist nation with superior quality weapon and armour for this reason, which is a shame when the mechanism is solid in theory. And herbs are just worthless. I usually end up with thousands of the useless things and none of the stuff you can spend them on seems to be especially worthwhile or gamechanging. Still, at least equipment isn't a micromanagement nightmare like it was in earlier versions of MoM.

Secondly, offensive magic is waaaaay to powerful and completely obsoletes siege weapons. Why do you need to spend dozens of turns researching and building catapults when the first piece of shit caster in your magic tree can do a far better job of cutting down city defenders during sieges than several siege weapons can AND is more mobile AND bestows auras to your shock troops.

Thirdly, tying spells to alignments is a cool idea, but it's pretty unbalanced in reality, particularly how the Good enchantment spells confer significant buffs to production or combat while the Evil enchantments are all sort of fagballs. The only really good Evil enchantment gives a significant happiness penalty to your cities, so it's only really useful at lower difficulties or when playing undead civs who don't get unhappy.

Fourthly, many of the "epic destinies" seem impossible to achieve without some serious metagaming. I finished the ones requiring you to build X wonders or libraries or whatever, but having to level a hero to fucking level 30? Or fight X number of enemies in a particular type of terrain? Gitouddaherewidatshit!

Sixthly, some of the "uber" units are hilarious to use. Playing as the winter-worshipping Illians, I managed to summon the God of Winter. I then spent about an hour having that 50 strength motherfucker destroy all the other civilizations single-handedly. Good times.

Finally, I find religion to be overpowered. What is the point of spending dozens of turns trying to get the research to get good archers or swordsmen if you can spend the same amount of research in the religion tree and get priest/crusader units with the same strength values and the ability to cast miracles plus a happiness bonus and access to religion specific civics and buildings? Playing as the orks, I barely had to build a single ork, my hordes of Cthulhu-cultists got the job done much more readily. Priest units should be nerfed or the basic troops buffed. As it is, it seems really unbalanced to me.

Awesome mod, all in all, each civilization plays very differently. My favourite is, of course, the orks. Double unit production = massive WAAAAAAAGH! on the humies!
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,438
Location
Lost Hills bunker
Master of Mana is pretty darn impressive and I like it a lot. The seperate research bar and casting system for "global" magics works fairly well and makes good use of the engine. It does suffer from some pretty severe balancing issues, however, and some things which are simply shittily implemented.

Most notably the resources and equipment system. Firstly, it doesn't work for the AI at all, doesn't give them any bonuses at the moment. Secondly, it's kinda of clipped-on in its current implementation and doesn't really affect gameplay enough to warrant keeping it in the game, especially considering how quarries provide a hammer more than mines for most of the game and lumber mills don't provide any type of production bonus, making generating much metal and lumber gimp your overall production. I don't feel it's feasible to play a hugely industrialist nation with superior quality weapon and armour for this reason, which is a shame when the mechanism is solid in theory. And herbs are just worthless. I usually end up with thousands of the useless things and none of the stuff you can spend them on seems to be especially worthwhile or gamechanging. Still, at least equipment isn't a micromanagement nightmare like it was in earlier versions of MoM.

Secondly, offensive magic is waaaaay to powerful and completely obsoletes siege weapons. Why do you need to spend dozens of turns researching and building catapults when the first piece of shit caster in your magic tree can do a far better job of cutting down city defenders during sieges than several siege weapons can AND is more mobile AND bestows auras to your shock troops.

Thirdly, tying spells to alignments is a cool idea, but it's pretty unbalanced in reality, particularly how the Good enchantment spells confer significant buffs to production or combat while the Evil enchantments are all sort of fagballs. The only really good Evil enchantment gives a significant happiness penalty to your cities, so it's only really useful at lower difficulties or when playing undead civs who don't get unhappy.

Fourthly, many of the "epic destinies" seem impossible to achieve without some serious metagaming. I finished the ones requiring you to build X wonders or libraries or whatever, but having to level a hero to fucking level 30? Or fight X number of enemies in a particular type of terrain? Gitouddaherewidatshit!

Sixthly, some of the "uber" units are hilarious to use. Playing as the winter-worshipping Illians, I managed to summon the God of Winter. I then spent about an hour having that 50 strength motherfucker destroy all the other civilizations single-handedly. Good times.

Finally, I find religion to be overpowered. What is the point of spending dozens of turns trying to get the research to get good archers or swordsmen if you can spend the same amount of research in the religion tree and get priest/crusader units with the same strength values and the ability to cast miracles plus a happiness bonus and access to religion specific civics and buildings? Playing as the orks, I barely had to build a single ork, my hordes of Cthulhu-cultists got the job done much more readily. Priest units should be nerfed or the basic troops buffed. As it is, it seems really unbalanced to me.

Awesome mod, all in all, each civilization plays very differently. My favourite is, of course, the orks. Double unit production = massive WAAAAAAAGH! on the humies!

Is it possible to play many turns without crashing? I.e. when there are a lot of units on the screen in later stages? FFH always crashed for me. :(
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,297
Location
Poland
MoM is nice but AI cant play it with you, barbarians are stationary and not really working right now and there are unit caps meaning that while stack combat is greatly reduced mages rule the battlefield and AI is even less of a challenge. Guess it could be fun in MP but then all the civs are unbalanced...

Also promotion and equipment system doesnt work for aforementioned reasons, tile yields are completely out of balance with way too much food. Its a fun mod but if you want any challenge at all it quickly grows on you. I used to win immortal games with 3 cities going the magic conquest route.
 

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