What makes a good rpg ? A great story. But what makes ..

[Constipated Craprunner]

OK. That's a mental image I did not need.

You know you crave it!

 

[MF]

Would it?
Damn. I guess I missed that chance to become clairvoyant. Everyone seems to be these days.

Chess is sort of a battle allegory. It is a very old form of combat simulation.
Tetris is a bunch of falling blocks, sort of a geometry exercise.

Basically, they don't need a good story, but they're wonderful games.

If you want to add a captivating story to a game mechanic, both the story and the game system should be solid. If you want to build a game mechanic around a solid story, you better make a good one or the game will suck.

Either way, you need a good game mechanic.
Jagged Alliance 2 had a weak story if you ask me. It was pretty nice all in all, but it was the combat simulation that made the game.

In Arcanum, for example, it's a combination of a combat system (which isn't super), a wonderful dialogue system (which is a social simulation and quite nice) and statistics (not too bad, not great either but I liked it). Within these systems, a story unfolds which is also pretty nice. It really needs this story to drive the game, because the game is a social/combat allegory. It is however, unlike chess, not something to merely reflect a few strategic decisions in battle, but it is ment to reflect part of a characters life in full except for sleeping. To that end, the character's life should have some sort of development or interesting thing in it, for the game to be any good.

It's not necessarily what makes a game, but it CAN break a game.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I agree with MF. It's not so much how the story is that matters, is how well it works with everything else that's in the game. Dungeon Master had a weak story, as did most of the early first person perspective dungeon crawlers, but they were still captivating.

All the plots were basically the same. You have a big dungeon. You have something bad at the bottom of the dungeon. You have a reason for going in that dungeon. That pretty much sums them all up.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Maybe this could explain the current loving of NWN and co?
I think that a lot of people just forget about the gameplay in an RPG, unlike the older days.
To be perfectly honest I think that if a game does have any kind of focus on the story (so, for instance, BG would and FO would while DM and several other old skool Dungeon Crawls) than the story is possibely more important than the gameplay to an extent.
I enjoyed the combat system in Summoner, for instance, yet I loathed the story and of this date have not finished it.
The same applies to Morrorwind and several other games.
However, conversly, with Panzer Dragoon I found the gameplay to be a bit repetitve, yet at the same time the visuals and the story swept me up in a way I still find hard
THis could also account for why so many people universally enjoy PS:T- it's definite emphisis on narrative, and it's spectacular narrative at that.
I will be the first to state that for most games this is not true.
I dont know though, perhaps it is a matter of why you play games

 

[Section8]

Maybe this could explain the current loving of NWN and co?

Not really. NWN seems to be driven by munchkinism, advancement and ph4t l3wt, not by gameplay. It's basically adopting the same philosophy as Diablo, Rogue-likes or the ucrrent crop of MMORPGs. The games would not be enjoyable in any way whatsoever without advancement of characters and items. The game systems are simplistic, uninteresting and have no gameplay merit. But with the added hook that advancement brings, it becomes kind of like lifting weights. The activity itself isn't fun, but the gains it can provide are motivational. Except in this case, it's virtual gain.

I find this game design philosophy to be somewhat reprehensible, because what the end user experiences is more akin to addiction than enjoyment. If the advancement is merely an additional factor to something that is enjoyable on it's own merits, then I don't really have a problem. I could delve further into the idea of addiction and game design, but I'll save that for another day.

The bottom line here, is that when compared to games such as DIablo which dangle a fairly juicy carrot in front of the mule, NWN is dangling a parsnip that has been painted orange with the word "karet" written on it in magic marker. A magic marker wielded by the collective consciousness of sellout games media "pundits." There are a bunch of mules out there that believe the writing, and there are also a bunch of mules out there desperately trying to peel the orange paint off, respray it and re-write "karet" with its correct spelling.

Hows that for an analogy? :D

I think that if a game does have any kind of focus on the story...than the story is possibely more important than the gameplay to an extent.

Like anything, if the main ingredient isn't quite right, then the whole recipe suffers. If the game is focused on storyline, it needs to be well delivered and well written. If the gameplay is the main element, then the story doesn't really matter as long as it doesn't get in the way of gameplay. If the game has no real focus then it also suffers. I realise I'm basically paraphrasing what most people have already said, but consider this a statement of agreement.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Hows that for an analogy? :D

Well, it's better than Ive ever written
Which is not saying much, though that baboon remark was pretty good!
I agree with your comments on NWN, though I think that my statement holds true for BG.
Also, that could explain why I dont hate BG.

 

[Section8]

Well I personally don't think that BG had a terribly good story, the gameplay side of things was mediocre and even the peripheral stuff like advancement wasn't very compelling. Not only that but I felt the story lacked a decent method of delivery, however the most glaring flaw of BG is the false nature of the game world. Absolutely nothing in Baldur's Gate felt plausible. It was like adventuring through a world of cardboard cutouts, some of which had "Push to hear me talk!" buttons on them.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

I liked alot of the characters, it was my first real expirince in the world of RPGies, I was overwhelmed by the Forgotten Realms and enjoyed the entire storyline.
I see it through the eyes of an 11 year old clouded by nostolgia and a few other things, though I still enjoy the odd chapter of BG2.
I find quite a few of the quests to be enjoyable, to, and get some sort of kick out of the almost F:T meets PoR gameplay.

 

[davmonster]

Well I personally don't think that BG had a terribly good story, the gameplay side of things was mediocre and even the peripheral stuff like advancement wasn't very compelling. Not only that but I felt the story lacked a decent method of delivery, however the most glaring flaw of BG is the false nature of the game world. Absolutely nothing in Baldur's Gate felt plausible. It was like adventuring through a world of cardboard cutouts, some of which had "Push to hear me talk!" buttons on them.

The story was the reason I played BG:II. Since the story was centered around the character development of your character; your true identity is inextricably linked with major villans as they strive to take your power for their own. This drew me into the story and gave me the feeling that my actions could influence the way the story turned out. (even though that wasn't exactly true.. the main story was rather linear). The sidequests however were well-crafted and gave me the feeling of freedom of the Fallout series, I especially liked the stronghold quests. There were also loads of sidequests, giving you a lot of story development choices.

The character development, particually on the NPCs that travelled with you, was ground breaking. They talk to you, they interact with the rest of the group, they can even fall in love with you. The only game I have played which had better character development was Planescape:Torment., and that still didn't posess the feeling of interaction that BG2 gave me. Cardboard cutouts? I beg to differ.

The bottom line here, is that when compared to games such as DIablo which dangle a fairly juicy carrot in front of the mule, NWN is dangling a parsnip that has been painted orange with the word "karet" written on it in magic marker. A magic marker wielded by the collective consciousness of sellout games media "pundits." There are a bunch of mules out there that believe the writing, and there are also a bunch of mules out there desperately trying to peel the orange paint off, respray it and re-write "karet" with its correct spelling.

Again I disagree. NWN can be used to create a very hardcore roleplaying fantasy, if you disagree you should play through the Lone Wolf modules available from http://nwvault.ign.com/. It always saddens me to see people put down NWN as as an over-hyped pile of propaganda, when they are missing the point, which is that NWN is essentially a genetic toolbox for growing different types of vegetable, and if you're still playing the poor single player campaign that the game ships with, you're chasing after a "karet" rather then its real fruit.

 

[Section8]

The story was the reason I played BG:II. Since the story was centered around the character development of your character; your true identity is inextricably linked with major villans as they strive to take your power for their own. This drew me into the story and gave me the feeling that my actions could influence the way the story turned out. (even though that wasn't exactly true.. the main story was rather linear).

I was put offside right from the start, because I didn't really care whoever this Gorion guy was, and it didn't really trouble me that some old guy I'd known for 2 seconds was dead. That said, the rest of the game compelled me only to the point of reaching Baldur's Gate out of curiosities sake, and I never really continued with it, and in doing so missed out on a lot of plot elements regarding Sarevok and my own heritage. I haven't played an Infinity Engine since then because I just didn't enjoy Baldur's Gate, mainly due to the excess of dull combat.

The sidequests however were well-crafted and gave me the feeling of freedom of the Fallout series, I especially liked the stronghold quests. There were also loads of sidequests, giving you a lot of story development choices.

I don't remember a lot about the sidequests, but most of them had a single solution, and most of them were FedEx. I remember going to a Gnoll stronghold, I remember killing some hobgoblins to get a ring, finding a cat under a waterfall, retrieving swords, potions, books, scrolls, killing some Ankhegs, witches, spiders, etc. However, I found that follow the story quests was exactly that. I wasn't really compelled by the story, I was just doing the quests it served up because that seemed like the way to the end of the game.

The character development, particually on the NPCs that travelled with you, was ground breaking. They talk to you, they interact with the rest of the group, they can even fall in love with you.

Nothing that Jagged Alliance hadn't already done. I found most of the NPCs in BG grated on me, because they'd repeat themselves constantly, talk to me as though I was a person interacting with them through a game interface rather than a character they were travelling with, and for the most part were just plain silly. A pussy whipped fighter? A guy with a "space hampster"? A short guy and a tall guy who hate each other, but not really? And if they weren't annoying, they were just outright cheeseball. Not to mention the fact that I could order them to do things, and then they'd bitch because their own actions were against their alignment.

The only game I have played which had better character development was Planescape:Torment., and that still didn't posess the feeling of interaction that BG2 gave me. Cardboard cutouts? I beg to differ.

The cardboard cutouts I'm referring to are any number of the characters who appear just to say one line or two and then mysteriously vanish behind a tree, the innumerable characters with nothing interesting to say, the assassins who will try and kill you regardless of what you say to them, the people that seem to exist only to provide you with a quest. None of it feels like a plausible world.

I still haven't played Planescape, but I have heard a lot of good things about how it presents the story and characters.

Again I disagree. NWN can be used to create a very hardcore roleplaying fantasy, if you disagree you should play through the Lone Wolf modules available from http://nwvault.ign.com/. It always saddens me to see people put down NWN as as an over-hyped pile of propaganda, when they are missing the point, which is that NWN is essentially a genetic toolbox for growing different types of vegetable, and if you're still playing the poor single player campaign that the game ships with, you're chasing after a "karet" rather then its real fruit.

If it was still on my very limited HD space, I'd be inclined to give it a go, but kind of gave up on searching for the diamond in the rough of user content a while back.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

The story was the reason I played BG:II. Since the story was centered around the character development of your character; your true identity is inextricably linked with major villans as they strive to take your power for their own.

Your "true identity" is very little more than people occationally reminding you that you're Bhaalspawn.

Player: Damn, it sucks being human.
NPC: No, dude, you're Bhaalspawn.. Totally.
Player: Oh, right. Um, how come I'm just like everyone else?
NPC: ....

That's pretty much how BG and BG2 feel. Other than the occation mention of your heritage, there's jack shit of it displayed, really.

This drew me into the story and gave me the feeling that my actions could influence the way the story turned out. (even though that wasn't exactly true.. the main story was rather linear).

Ummm.. Yeah. Okay, then why the hell did you feel that way? It's rather obvious how linear it all is.

The sidequests however were well-crafted and gave me the feeling of freedom of the Fallout series,

Even though most of those quests were identical? Kill monster(s), collect reward/return for reward? I don't see how that compares to Fallout's "freedom" where you can deal with situations in a number of ways.

There were also loads of sidequests, giving you a lot of story development choices.

Excepting, naturally, that they don't have anything to do with the story or affect it in any way, shape, or form.

The character development, particually on the NPCs that travelled with you, was ground breaking.

Ground breaking in that "It's been done before, and better" fashion.

They talk to you,

Yeah, they can even tell you they don't trust you and don't like how you're doing things, then you can order them to charge suicidially in to a pack of monsters and die for you. YAY!

they interact with the rest of the group,

Boss, Sulik is looking at me again.

they can even fall in love with you.

Which is handled in a shoddy and inane fashion.

The only game I have played which had better character development was Planescape:Torment.,

Excuse me? BG/BG2's character development was mainly just levelling up. If you do something bad, just donate to a temple. Oh, and build a stronghold in BG2.

Did I miss something?

Again I disagree. NWN can be used to create a very hardcore roleplaying fantasy, if you disagree you should play through the Lone Wolf modules available from http://nwvault.ign.com/.

Yay! Free content making up for the shoddy commercial content!

It always saddens me to see people put down NWN as as an over-hyped pile of propaganda,

Stick around, we'll make you cry.

when they are missing the point, which is that NWN is essentially a genetic toolbox for growing different types of vegetable, and if you're still playing the poor single player campaign that the game ships with, you're chasing after a "karet" rather then its real fruit.

Actually, the campaign was what BioWare focused on in all their press coverage. So, basically, you're the one missing the point.

Even then, there may be some decent user created modules out there, but sifting through all the crap just isn't worth my time when there are actually good CRPGs out there where I don't have to download something, playtest it, then look for something else that might be better when what I downloaded sucked in the first place.

Like Gareth said, there's no real point in leaving that 2.2GB game on the drive when there's a slim chance at running across something halfway decent via download. NWNVault's rating system is a joke, since more than half the people who frequent that site think that NWN, which was a horribly crappy game all around, is worth the time.

 

[davmonster]

Ack adversaries.. *Dave chooses to turn into the Slayer!* Reputation -2..

For Section8 - I'd reccomend getting a copy of BGII or at least the demo, I enjoyed it a lot more then BG1.. in all my comments I'm actually talking about BGII.. BG1 got boring too fast, and I agree with most of your comments regarding it. Also I found combat was a lot tougher in BG1, with BG2 you can just switch the difficulty to easy and plod through it all.

Your "true identity" is very little more than people occationally reminding you that you're Bhaalspawn.

This is not true.. the entire story is based around the fact that you are a child of a god. As you get further into the game (and its expansion) it becomes an epic quest of self-realisation. Your in-game powers mirror this, growing as you get closer to your true form, even your dreams are effected.

Excepting, naturally, that they don't have anything to do with the story or affect it in any way, shape, or form.

Well IMHO the sidequests do blend into the story sufficently. Its oftern hard to distinguish which quests will further the story and which are just subplots, for example clearing the mines of BG1, which I thought it was merely a sidequest.

As for the NPCs.. their interaction with the game was more comprehensive then any game I have played before, including Fallout. More then the simple "Boss, Sulik is looking at me agaiin" they have their own agendas, (a certain NPC attempts to steal Boo for example.. in many lines of dialogue).. they can get to hate certain party members (at least one of which ends in a fight) for example. The romancing may not be perfect, but its never been seen before in a modern game of this type. Planescape:Torment is one of the few titles that I can think of, that engrosses you in its NPCs in this way.

Actually, the campaign was what BioWare focused on in all their press coverage. So, basically, you're the one missing the point.

I don't care whether BioWare's press release says, go and play 20 or so of the highest rated modules on http://nwvault.ign.com and see if you can't be entertained by just one. Its not that much effort to do, and if you can't be bothered, you are obviously not a hardcore RPGer such as those the module toolset was meant to please.

Rating NWN on the engine and toolset alone, for me, it was ok, it was just the single player campaign that let it down. The point is that this already huge fan-contributed content can only grow and grow, as per Quake, meaning that sooner of later there is bound to be something out there that will please you.

Like Gareth said, there's no real point in leaving that 2.2GB game on the drive when there's a slim chance at running across something halfway decent via download. NWNVault's rating system is a joke, since more than half the people who frequent that site think that NWN, which was a horribly crappy game all around, is worth the time.

Well of course its up to you, but the critical acclaim so far has been mostly for the toolset and the multiplayer option, if you're not going to experience them, your opinion is not going to be particually favourable.

*slayer mode off*

 

[MF]

Moot point. He bought a game with an allegedly "fantastic single player campaign". It didn't contain that. He was screwed over.

When I by a Microwave oven with a grill function, I want to heat up my microwave meals and defrost stuff. If all i can do with the thing is grill, I'm definitely going to return the damn oven, no matter how well it grills.


Besides, NWN multiplayer isn't that great either. It's very dependent on the player base, as most games are. Good players are hard to find.

You are obviously not a hardcore RPGer such as those the module toolset was meant to please

Haha. Hardcore RPGer. Module toolset. Let's make that gullible moron and half-assed editor/format. The toolset is crappy. It uses way too much resources in terms of storage from what I can gather. It's also very limited and 2 dimensional. It doesn't matter if you have an 80gb drive, bloated software is simply not a good thing.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

This is not true.. the entire story is based around the fact that you are a child of a god. As you get further into the game (and its expansion) it becomes an epic quest of self-realisation. Your in-game powers mirror this, growing as you get closer to your true form, even your dreams are effected.

Which are all smoke, mirrors, and what typically happens as you level up.

Well IMHO the sidequests do blend into the story sufficently. Its oftern hard to distinguish which quests will further the story and which are just subplots, for example clearing the mines of BG1, which I thought it was merely a sidequest.

Which I'd actually consider a problem with BioWare's games. Even NWN had this problem. They basically plop you in an area and someone says, "Now go find/do this!" and they don't give you anything further to go on.

As for the NPCs.. their interaction with the game was more comprehensive then any game I have played before, including Fallout. More then the simple "Boss, Sulik is looking at me agaiin" they have their own agendas, (a certain NPC attempts to steal Boo for example.. in many lines of dialogue).. they can get to hate certain party members (at least one of which ends in a fight) for example.

Which is all crippled by your ability to control them directly most of the time. They go from acting like they have personalities one instant to your average party meat puppet the second. Jagged Alliance 2 actually handles this much better.

Furthermore, you have to love those "NPCs" are cliches, and in some cases, down right rip offs of other characters in other media. Minsc, for example, is The Tick, sans the original writing.

The romancing may not be perfect, but its never been seen before in a modern game of this type. Planescape:Torment is one of the few titles that I can think of, that engrosses you in its NPCs in this way.

The reason most games don't do this is because it's silly. You're out trying to save the world and your own skin, but you take a pitstop to wine and dine a party member? Also, this is something borrowed from the Japanese console tripe, not exactly a great genre to borrow from, but BioWare likes to do it.

I don't care whether BioWare's press release says, go and play 20 or so of the highest rated modules on http://nwvault.ign.com and see if you can't be entertained by just one. Its not that much effort to do, and if you can't be bothered, you are obviously not a hardcore RPGer such as those the module toolset was meant to please.

...And you don't know what a "hardcore RPGer" is, because NWN has very little to do with "hardcore RPGing", toolset included. The games you claim to like, BG2 and NWN, aren't hardcore CRPGs at all. They're mainstream, appeal to the lowest common denominator games. That's why the combat is so passive and you can just flip on easy and plow through without having to interact much with your party to get through things. Passive combat is hardly intrinsic to hardcore RPGs.

Rating NWN on the engine and toolset alone, for me, it was ok, it was just the single player campaign that let it down. The point is that this already huge fan-contributed content can only grow and grow, as per Quake, meaning that sooner of later there is bound to be something out there that will please you.

Excepting that Quake actually had a good single player to stand on. Sure, it wasn't Doom or Doom 2, but it's single player wasn't a total stinking turd like NWN had.

Well of course its up to you, but the critical acclaim so far has been mostly for the toolset and the multiplayer option, if you're not going to experience them, your opinion is not going to be particually favourable.

*slayer mode off*

The "critical acclaim" so far has mostly been bullshit hype, similar to how Black & White was handled. It got rave reviews, gobs of hype, but the game itself was awful.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Player: Damn, it sucks being human.
NPC: No, dude, you're Bhaalspawn.. Totally

That pretty much sums up all the depth, character development, and NPCs interactions in BGII.

Note to Saint, you are killing me Wicked sense of humor. Although my favourite line is
"Uninstaller works like a chum too" (refering to everybody's favourite game )

Note to davmonster, dude, you ain't gonna sell NWN here. It's great that you like it, we all are very happy for you, but....it will not change the fact that it was a crappy and limited toolset bundled with the most primitive single-player game ever. Community-made modules are a bonus, not a main course.

 

[Spazmo]

Davmosnter: Don't give up. Whether or not you're wrong, this is great entertainment!

 

[MF]

SP : Romances aren't always bad. The one in Arcanum with Raven, for example, was great.

You had a couple of options when replying to her obvious courting :
- Reply in a likewise manner, using cliche romantic answers that were both funny
and effective. (Reaction +10 for example)
- Reply with something like "Sod off girl, we have a job to do", making her stand back and cut the romantic chatter.
- Kill her.

Basically, that is a very well scripted 'romance'. Just a few snappy comments in 'romantic' locations, to which you can reply in mulitple ways. Not forced upon you, not intrusive, not too pubescent. Optional.

That's the keyword, optional.

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

Every one knows that the reason I play the BGies now is nostolgia, correct?
Just making sure.
B&W?
It got tedious, but the AI for the creatures seemed to have more in common with HAL9000 than some Q2 bot.
And yes, Raven's was good.
Frankly, romance in a preapocalyptic world (like most fantasy games) can work, though "Okay, now I know that Gi'Di'Mass'ter'o'Clit is about to destroy the multiverse, but is there enough time to have dinner and than move onto a night of oral sex, 69ies and about as many missionaries as 17th century Brazil" is frankly unlikely.
Damn, I never thought I would say this, but can we go through some sort of purge on these boards?

 

[davmonster]

Well, it seems I'm never going to be able to convert you people to the wonders of BG2 and NWN. Best to back out now I think; live and let live etc *flees*.

 

[Legolas]

For me, good characters is the key to a good story. Also, you've got to keep the story moving enough that gamers get into it, but try to keep it from getting annoyingly linear.