What if we can be assured of nothing? (heavy PoE spoilers)

[Trashos]

I love PoE's story. It is a story for intelligent people, which is kind of rare in videogames. It is not spoon-fed to you and I find the whole approach to be very sophisticated.

I am still discovering its details (there is so much of it!) and having a-ha! moments, so I am opening this topic to discuss what I have found and hopefully others will do the same. I will be updating this post as more information becomes available.

The main theme is: What if we can be assured of nothing?
This is explicitly uttered by Iovara in your last conversation with her in Act III, where the game lets you choose your answer. But if you have been paying attention, this very topic is studied from different angles throughout the game.

Main character:
The main character is trying to understand what happened to him (being a watcher and all). So his initial answer to the main question is "I am going to look for answers till I find them". In ActIII, he is informed that the Gods are manmade (if we are to believe Iovara). This means that the Gods are not his creator, and therefore no ultimate answers can be provided by them. That's when the game lets YOU choose your answer to the main question.

Eder:
Eder feels lost when he can be assured of nothing. When faced with difficult dilemmas (fight for your God or for your country?), he turns to people he respects and trusts for answers. When he finds out that his brother fought for Readceras, he feels that the rug has been pulled under his feet. Now he needs to know WHY his brother fought for Readceras, but he never finds out. Eder's approach goes wrong, but he still can't figure out his own answers.

Kana Rua:
Kana is looking for answers in Gabrannos and ancient wisdom. He is looking for an ancient tablet with all the answers on it. When his quest "fails" (the tablet is destroyed), he bravely moves on and figures out his own answers.

In fact, Kana is a very cultered guy and he already had opinions on many important matters. I think he was mainly looking for the tablet in order to reifnorce his opinions and present them to his people with the advantage of ancient wisdom supporting him.

Thaos:
Thaos, as many characters in PoE, is a bit Dostoevskian. He is the impersonation of an answer to the extreme. Thaos believes that if people can be assured of nothing, utter chaos will be next. He chooses to be sure about this. He then proceeds with a whatever-it-takes attitude on his quest to prevent utter chaos.

Thaos is so sure about what he is doing, that he doesn't mind causing chaos in order to prevent the utter chaos he predicts.


to be continued....

 

[CptMace]

to be continued....

Can't wait.

 

[Trashos]

Thanks for the support, guys. Er... how can I edit my OP?

So, here are the entries for Lord Raedric and Cwineth, and a quote (from within the game) that is supposed to go at the top of the OP:

"Some questions have answers that can never be learned. And it is those that trouble the soul above all others."
Sidha, Elm's Reach

Lord Raedric
Raedric is a man of means, a leader of Justice without benevolence. He is also a man of honour, but carries his pride like a cross on his back rather than with joy.
Raedric was probably raised to be a pious man of tradition. But he's got some skeletons in his closet, a dead wife on his bed, and an animancer under his keep.

Like Thaos, Raedric will do all he can to solve a problem. Unlike Thaos, he always has a plan B of a distinctly different nature to his plan A. You are not a man of honour? He will bribe you. Religion may not work? He will use animancy. Just in case. Because Raedric can be assured of nothing.

Club of Refined and Prestigious Gentlemen
"New members are all phonies. Got no class."
Older Drunkard, Salty Mast

Cwineth
Cwineth is the lady that you meet at the bar in Twin Elms and gives you the "At the mercy of the tribes" quest.
She is one of those practical people that always rationalize their actions to their advantage.

First she raids holy grounds, then she comes up with an excuse as to why she had the right to do so.
First she makes sure she's out of harm's way, then comes up with an excuse as to why she abandoned her peers, and finally looks for someone to solve the problem.
Practicality is Cwineth's answer to the unbearable lightness of being.


to be continued...
(I will be really pissed if I can't edit the OP!)

 

[Trashos]

Iovara
(Iovara, I hope you enjoyed the kiss more than I enjoyed the 30 pieces of copper.)
When Iovara learns the truth about the Gods, she goes on a crusade to inform people. Thaos' complaints about the imminent chaos are not enough to dissuade her. She has faith in people and the hope that everything is going to turn out all right.

Iovara has her doubts, but they are not going to stop her. Your betrayal after she put her misguided trust in you is not going to change her mind either. She can live without the Gods, she can live with betrayal. She can live with her doubts.
Iovara cannot live without hope.


Aloth
Aloth comes from a broken home and a traumatic childhood. His experiences have made his character largely reactionary and he lacks an overall philosophy on life. In order to face life's uncertainties, Aloth desperately needs guidance.

Aloth is one of the game's characters that develop greatly throughout the story, and ends up a better man. By the grand finale, he is ready to take matters into his own hands. Still, I think that he has a long way to go. He matured, but he never persuaded me that he can see the whole picture.



May or may not do in the future:

Durance - guilt
Grieving Mother - sanctity of life
Pallegina - personal opinion vs typical responsibility
Hiravias - haven't done his quest yet
Sagani - haven't played with her yet.

 

[HoboForEternity]

When i played it, for me the general theme is acceptance;

Eder accept he will never find truth about his brother
Sagani accept that she never found the village leader incarnation
Kana rua accept he didnt find the tablet
And so on, to finally people have to accept their gods are fake

 

[Azarkon]

You can think of the first theme of Pillars of Eternity as the video game manifestation of Western civilization's philosophical responses to Nietszche's famous nihilist proclamation: "God is dead" = "we can be assured of nothing" = "life is meaningless."

Generally speaking, there are two answers:

1. Existentialism/Postmodernism = "Then I/WE create MY/OUR own meanings."
2. Nihilism = "Then life is pointless and futile."

Every character in the game has their own answer to Nietszche/Iovara's question, one way/another, but the central conflict is actually not about nihilism. See, Iovara and Thaos don't actually disagree about "God is dead." They are also both existentialists/postmodernists, in the sense that they don't think it's all pointless just because "God is dead." What they disagree about is politics. Thaos has a pessimistic view of human nature, where he thinks that people, without the moral guidance provided by the Engwithian gods, will destroy themselves, and so he has a responsibility to keep people ignorant. Iovara, on the other hand, believes that people have a "right to know," regardless of consequence. This is the second major theme of the game - "should we tell the truth even if it destroys us?"

Most of the Engwithian gods, along with Thaos, stand on the side of "no." Iovara and Abydion stand on the side of "yes." The central conflict of the White March expansion is essentially the same as that of the main game, in that on one side you have Ondra, who wants mortals to stay ignorant and primitive, and Abydion, who wants mortals to learn and progress, even if it leads to them finding out the truth about the gods. Ondra is all about hiding and forgetting. Abydion is all about learning and discovering. Thus we have a repeat of the exact same conflict as that between Thaos and Iovara, except with the sex reversed. All/most of the other characters also have their own answer to the "should we tell the truth" question, just as they did for the "we can be assured of nothing" question.

As for the game's opinions on these questions, you can sort of get that from the way the answers are presented. For example, Iovara is presented in a sympathetic light while Thaos is the villain, and the consequences for siding with Iovara aren't "the world is destroyed," so you can basically grasp that the game supports Iovara's side in "should we tell the truth" conflict. For the other conflict, since no one commits suicide because "God is dead," and most of the characters, including the main character, does appear to find their own meanings by the end of the game, you can also grasp that the game supports existentialism/postmodernism, as opposed to nihilism.

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

See, Iovara and Thaos don't actually disagree about "God is dead." They are also both existentialists/postmodernists, in the sense that they don't think it's all pointless just because "God is dead."

You sure about that?
Maybe I missed something, but as far as I remember Thaos never admitted the Gods were made up. So while the game strongly suggests (especially in the Skaen dialogue) Iovaras version is true, it still leaves the door open for Thaos actually telling the truth or at least believing in his version. Right?

Btw., is it an inconsistency or has it to do with another choice I made that while the game in the Skaen dialogue says that if I chose to side with Woedica the secret stays hidden (suggesting it does not stay hidden when chosing the other versions), my ending showed the secret staying hidden despite me chosing the Hylea ending.
I don't wanna complain, that's exactly what I wanted. I was just wondering.

PS: a propos endings, when the Caed Nua slide appeared there seemed to be a bug that caused it to disappear within seconds, and no narrating voice. Can I see the different Caed Nua ending slides anywhere?

 

[2house2fly]

Thaos never admits the gods were made up, which is what that big text dump after you defeat him is all about- you ransack his memories and see a vision of the Engwithans sacrificing themselves to create the gods, which is proof enough to lay the ghost of your past self to rest.

I think Thaos kind of did go the way of nihilism though, he has this speech before you fight him about how if you told people there are no gods all it would get them is a hollow existence in an uncaring universe being ground slowly into dust, ie exactly how the Engwithans felt. He knows life is meaningless and futile and he wants to save everyone else from realising it.

Endings wiki page btw: http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Endings

 

[Azarkon]

Thaos knew the gods were made up, but he never tells it to you straight, because that'd obviously go against his goal of not allowing anyone to find out.

 

[Manmower]

I love PoE's story. It is a story for intelligent people, which is kind of rare in videogames. It is not spoon-fed to you and I find the whole approach to be very sophisticated.

Seriously though, I also enjoyed the game, but let's not try to make it into something it clearly isn't. The 'deep and philosophical' examination of existentialist themes and ideas? Babby's first crisis. For a better rendition of the meaning of life and death, see PS:T, as it's superior not only thematically, but also narratively, what with its plot revolving around the Protagonist, and thereby being not only intimately personal, but also quite a bit more interesting.

Pillars 1 was ok. Hopefully, they'll strike gold with the sequel. I, for one, am rooting for them.

 

[Trashos]

For a better rendition of the meaning of life and death, see PS:T, as it's superior not only thematically, but also narratively, what with its plot revolving around the Protagonist, and thereby being not only intimately personal, but also quite a bit more interesting.

Sure, PST is a league of its own.

Seriously though, I also enjoyed the game, but let's not try to make it into something it clearly isn't. The 'deep and philosophical' examination of existentialist themes and ideas? Babby's first crisis.

No.

But anyway, my main point is that PoE's themes require a mature switched-on brain to be appreciated. That's very rare in RPGs, and I enjoyed it despite some problems in execution. I am sick and tired of the I-am-a-badass-lol themes in RPGs (it is especially ironic that almost all *R* *P* *G*s run on the same theme), and in this thread I am celebrating a story that was not for lulz.

 

[Manmower]

No.

How so? It's trivially shallow and thematically laughable. Not trying to rip on the game, but come on, it's not that deep of a premise.

But anyway, my main point is that PoE's themes require a mature switched-on brain to be appreciated.

This I agree with. Though their execution of it could've been a bit better. Let's hope POE2 leaves us all with a new appreciation for Obsidian's skill and effort.

 

[HoboForEternity]

This I agree with. Though their execution of it could've been a bit better. Let's hope POE2 leaves us all with a new appreciation for Obsidian's skill and effort.

i think the last arc is hindered by time and budget problem, that's why the pacing is so bad. let's see if PoE's 700k sales will help them with budget in the sequel

 

[Trashos]

How so? It's trivially shallow and thematically laughable. Not trying to rip on the game, but come on, it's not that deep of a premise.

I don't see what is laughable about themes like religion, authority, and moral freedom. Maybe not all people are interested in them, but laughable? They are as deep as it goes.
The management and execution on these themes could have been better, but it is not like PoE aimed to replace Kundera. It is a cRPG, and it is very deep compared to most other cRPGs.

I am not saying it is perfect, but I consider it deep enough. For example, I found Eder's and Kana's dilemmas interesting, and Thaos' motivations well-based.