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Turn based tactical combat.

Skankster

Novice
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
97
Just finished Buck Rogers: Matrix Cubed and all I can say is, bring back the old days.

The game itself is simplistic in a number of ways, namely dialogue or any kind of interaction with other beings. However, the sheer brilliance of the combat makes up for it.

The battles can be quite long, but never tedious (apart from those times, especially in certain other goldbox games, where enemies pop up every 5 steps), and often present an excellent tactical depth.

Enemy bands are often a challenge to the player, and thought is needed to combat the different enemies that the game throws at you. There is no failsafe way to beat everything; you have think your way through by using different tactics, weapons, grenades, etc to defeat opponents.

The actual battles themselves are easy to get the hang of, yet difficult to master each situation. The invisible hex like battlefield makes movement, placement and tactics much easier to implement in a top down view rather than the isometric view used by other games like the Avernums. This is accentuated by the party moving as one entity during adventuring, only switching to the combat map when meeting foes.

Ultima started this kind of combat I believe, yet SSI mastered it and I do not think anyone else has come quite so close to such an easy to use system mixed with enemy tactics and placement. Anyone that enjoys Tactical turn based combat owes it to themselves to try out some of the Goldbox games, though I think younger users will find it easier to get into the newer versions like the Buck Rogers games or perhaps the Savage frontier series. All of them, even the oldest (though best of the Dungeons and Dragons variants in my opinion) Pool of Radiance, is quite easy to get into.

You won't find engrossing dialogue, though you will find excellent adventures mixed with brilliant Turn based combat.

Sorry about the rant, I just am on a high from finishing this brilliant game and am wondering how I am going to go back to some of the crap combat of the newer games waiting for me on my desk. I think I will need a rest from gaming for a week or two.

Or go for some other oldies. Maybe the other goldboxers, or maybe go through the whole Magic Candle trio again, though its combat is not quite as good.

Time to shut up now, if anyone has questions, thoughts, etc fire away.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
Hmm, I have both the Buck Rogers games on my computer, but I don't know how to get them to work. I downloaded the Abandonia version.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
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Location
Ingrija
Skankster said:
There is no failsafe way to beat everything; you have think your way through by using different tactics, weapons, grenades, etc to defeat opponents.

2x plasma launchers for everybody is a failsafe way to beat everything, and enough to last any shopless area.

Unlike the fantasy goldboxes, in BR the wands of fireball with 10 charges each are sold cheaply and in every store :(

Ultima started this kind of combat I believe, yet SSI mastered it and I do not think anyone else has come quite so close to such an easy to use system mixed with enemy tactics and placement.

SSI have been doing such combat since Wizard's Crown in about 1984.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
Oh, and theverybigslayer, can you tell me where to find a DOS version of Wizardry IV for download?
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
Good old SSI games. I played them on my Amiga. There's an Amiga version on the Lemon Amiga site, that maybe more user friendly.
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
I couldn't get the dos version to work. It kept saying something about an error while trying to create a player. Is countdown to doomsday similar? I'm going to try the amiga version of that (lemon amiga actually does not have matrix cubed).
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Ingrija
The path you placed the game at is most likely different from the one listed in its config file. Either run the config utility (if it's around and works, which is not always the case with goldboxes), or just edit the path manually in notepad. Or the other way around, move the game wherever the config expects it to be :)

You might also want to create a SAVE folder in the game folder if there is none.
 

Anthony Davis

Blizzard Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
2,100
Location
California
elander_ said:
Good old SSI games. I played them on my Amiga. There's an Amiga version on the Lemon Amiga site, that maybe more user friendly.

Best SSI games ever with TB combat....

Wizard's Crown
The Eternal Dagger


soooo good.
 

Skankster

Novice
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
97
I used dosbox and everything worked fine.

I haven't played Wizards crown or Eternal Dagger, how would you describe the combat in relation to the goldbox games? And what makes them better?
 

Anthony Davis

Blizzard Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
2,100
Location
California
Skankster said:
I used dosbox and everything worked fine.

I haven't played Wizards crown or Eternal Dagger, how would you describe the combat in relation to the goldbox games? And what makes them better?

More detailed than the gold box games.

Shields are on the right arm and only block that arc. You can rotate the character's facing to block a different arc.

Critical hits.

Shields can be broken.

Bleeding.

Wounds.



One of my favorite anecdotes from back in the day. It was my second playthrough of Wizard's Crown, and because I knew what the future held, I was training up a character with 2Handed Mauls and really beefing up his strength.

I got in a fight with some goblins, the feedback went something like this:

Dude swings hit Maul at the Goblin.
Dude hits!
Goblins blocks with his shield.
Goblin's shield is broken!
Goblins is crushed.

Good times.
 

Skankster

Novice
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
97
Anthony Davis said:
Skankster said:
I used dosbox and everything worked fine.

I haven't played Wizards crown or Eternal Dagger, how would you describe the combat in relation to the goldbox games? And what makes them better?

More detailed than the gold box games.

Shields are on the right arm and only block that arc. You can rotate the character's facing to block a different arc.

Critical hits.

Shields can be broken.

Bleeding.

Wounds.



One of my favorite anecdotes from back in the day. It was my second playthrough of Wizard's Crown, and because I knew what the future held, I was training up a character with 2Handed Mauls and really beefing up his strength.

I got in a fight with some goblins, the feedback went something like this:

Dude swings hit Maul at the Goblin.
Dude hits!
Goblins blocks with his shield.
Goblin's shield is broken!
Goblins is crushed.

Good times.

Sounds pretty good! What is the rest of the game like?
 

Kaiserin

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
4,082
Dude swings hit Maul at the Goblin.
Dude hits!
Goblins blocks with his shield.
Goblin's shield is broken!
Goblins is crushed.
Sounds a lot like Dwarf Fortress' combat.
 

Skankster

Novice
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
97
Except that it doesn't tell you that the goblins left ass cheek was ripped off, causing some discomfort.
 

mondblut

Arcane
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Messages
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Location
Ingrija
Skankster said:
Sounds pretty good! What is the rest of the game like?

I don't remember that much of Wizard's Crown, but there was no "rest of the game" really, just lots and lots of combat :)

I also suggest Tim Proudfoot's indie games (Nahlakh, Natuk, unfinished Pirates of Western Sea) which are very clearly derived from those old SSI games.
 
Joined
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Astrology
Skankster said:
Except that it doesn't tell you that the goblins left ass cheek was ripped off, causing some discomfort.
:)
Goblins left eyebrow was seared as he jumped away from the fireball

Dude swings hit Maul at the Goblin.
Dude hits!
Goblins blocks with his shield.
Goblin's shield is broken!
Goblins is crushed.

Good times.
awesome, the maul went through the shield and crushed the Goblin
 

SkeleTony

Augur
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
938
mondblut said:
Skankster said:
Sounds pretty good! What is the rest of the game like?

I don't remember that much of Wizard's Crown, but there was no "rest of the game" really, just lots and lots of combat :)

I also suggest Tim Proudfoot's indie games (Nahlakh, Natuk, unfinished Pirates of Western Sea) which are very clearly derived from those old SSI games.

Also Wizard's Crown used ASCII graphics and, IIRC is nearly impossible to figure out how to save & quit games in the PC version(which can be downloaded from HoTU).

Tom Proudfoot's games feature a number of improvements(notably tiled graphics, the ability to create your own characters, etc.) but also have some very serious game balance/design issues that result in ALL characters, regardless of class and race being developed in the same exact ways(Magi/Witch Doctors are just as buff and strong as warriors and warriors are just as intelligent as magi/wizards).
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
22,253
Location
Ingrija
SkeleTony said:
Also Wizard's Crown used ASCII graphics

Eh? It looked like Nahlakh in CGA.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/wizar ... creenshots
doesn't look like ASCII to me.

very serious game balance/design issues that result in ALL characters, regardless of class and race being developed in the same exact ways(Magi/Witch Doctors are just as buff and strong as warriors and warriors are just as intelligent as magi/wizards).

Well, it does make some sense, logically speaking. Becoming more intelligent and becoming more physically fit *does* benefit any person, whether a scientist or a wrestler.
 
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
372
SkeleTony said:
Also Wizard's Crown used ASCII graphics and, IIRC is nearly impossible to figure out how to save & quit games in the PC version(which can be downloaded from HoTU).

Tom Proudfoot's games feature a number of improvements(notably tiled graphics, the ability to create your own characters, etc.) but also have some very serious game balance/design issues that result in ALL characters, regardless of class and race being developed in the same exact ways(Magi/Witch Doctors are just as buff and strong as warriors and warriors are just as intelligent as magi/wizards).

This is all news to me. I played Wizard's Crown on the Apple II, and I'm quite sure it used tile graphics. As for saving, unless the PC version is different than the Apple one (which I doubt), its accomplished by talking to the minstrel in town. I don't recall what you needed to quit, though, as I haven't played the game in years. It wasn't that it was difficult to figure out how to save, its that there's only one available save location, and its a *very* long way from the final encounter (plus you have to make it all the way back to town in order to actually win).

You were also able to create your own characters, up to a party size of eight. There was kind of an interesting system, where your intelligence was used to determine which class(es) a character would be eligible to select. As I recall, a fighter required 5 intelligence, and a mage something like 11. However, you could also create a fighter/mage character by giving the character 16 intelligence. Or, you could create a fighter/mage/thief if you had 19 intelligence (thieves required 3 int).
 

SkeleTony

Augur
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
938
mondblut said:
SkeleTony said:
Also Wizard's Crown used ASCII graphics

Eh? It looked like Nahlakh in CGA.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/wizar ... creenshots
doesn't look like ASCII to me.

I remember the game DID use some tiled graphics(in combat for example) that was, as you say similar to Nahlakh but I could have sworn the PC version(available at HoTU) used ascii characters for a lot of things but that is probably me 'misremembering' things.
very serious game balance/design issues that result in ALL characters, regardless of class and race being developed in the same exact ways(Magi/Witch Doctors are just as buff and strong as warriors and warriors are just as intelligent as magi/wizards).

Well, it does make some sense, logically speaking. Becoming more intelligent and becoming more physically fit *does* benefit any person, whether a scientist or a wrestler.

Undoubtedly having *MORE* of ANYTHING(stat-wise) benefits anyone but that does not address the problems I referred to above. It is just plain silly to have every fantasy archetype walking around looking like Arnold Schwartzenegger and speaking like Richard Dawkins! In Tom's game-worlds there are no 'dumb-as-a-box-of-hammers' enforcers/thugs or physically frail old wizards because there is no reason for such to exist.

It makes no logical sense whatsoever. In a well designed RPG system there will be factors encouraging one to de-emphasize some attributes and put more emphasis on others, depending on what the role of that character is in the party or game itself. Attribute boosting through experience should be severely restricted(see: Fallout/Fallout 2 and most other RPGs ever created). The problem with Tom's games is that EVERY character first pumps the lion's share of exp. into Intelligence(because this governs how much experience he gets from combat and such) and after that character has genius level IQ he switches to Strength(regardless of whether he is a warrior, a thief/assassin or a mage/priest), then Health & Dex...etc.
 

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