StarCraft 2 - Beware the Koreans

[MetalCraze]

Yes short queues were crappy

 

[TheCowburner]

Yes short queues were crappy

Exactly. But, there is more crap:

-In starcraft only 12 units can be in a group at once (CRAP)
-In Starcraft, a maximum of five units can be built at once by each building (CRAP) except Zerg, who can only build three and only at certain times (Double CRAP)
-In Starcraft, you can select all units of the same type, but only on the screen, and only 12 of them. (CRAP)
-In Starcraft, the only way to have a unit hold fire is to move him around or to ally with the enemy. (CRAPPY AS HELL)
-In Starcraft it's harder to control your units because of the unsatisfactory unit AI. For example, when trying to move a dragoon up stairs he will move jerkily up the stairs, and then decide to go back down and try to go onto the higher platform in a different way. You have to manually click for each step you want him to take. (CRAP)

And all this forces me to "click around" more. So when I said that I hoped that second game would be better (and not a clickfest), I simply hoped that they would fix crap like this.

 

[Marsal]

Exactly. But, there is more crap:

-In starcraft only 12 units can be in a group at once (CRAP)
-In Starcraft, a maximum of five units can be built at once by each building (CRAP) except Zerg, who can only build three and only at certain times (Double CRAP)
-In Starcraft, you can select all units of the same type, but only on the screen, and only 12 of them. (CRAP)
-In Starcraft, the only way to have a unit hold fire is to move him around or to ally with the enemy. (CRAPPY AS HELL)
-In Starcraft it's harder to control your units because of the unsatisfactory unit AI. For example, when trying to move a dragoon up stairs he will move jerkily up the stairs, and then decide to go back down and try to go onto the higher platform in a different way. You have to manually click for each step you want him to take. (CRAP)

And all this forces me to "click around" more. So when I said that I hoped that second game would be better (and not a clickfest), I simply hoped that they would fix crap like this.

I take it you haven't played Starcraft on Battle.net? If you need to queue more than 5 units, that means you need to build more unit producing buildings. You should never have that much money in the bank or spend it that way (by queuing units).

Other complaints are valid (to an extent), but they are all addressed in SC2 (even in WC3, I would say).

As for clickfest or not, it's a style of gameplay. I like that style of RTS games more than spamming hordes of units and attack-moving them at enemy positions and hoping they do some damage. Also, I prefer Blizzard RTS games to ones without resources (in the traditional meaning of the word) and base building (ie. CoH and DoW 2), although they can be fun too.

 

[Shuma]

-In Starcraft, a maximum of five units can be built at once by each building (CRAP) except Zerg, who can only build three and only at certain times (Double CRAP)

There's a lot more I could say here, but the Zerg's "crappy" mode of production is actually a gameplay design decision with incredibly important and widespread effects on how that race plays out. Simply put, it's parallel vs. serial production and the designers of TA were not so bold as to include such a fundamental difference in their race design.

Queues of 5+ units in competitive play are totally useless and a huge waste of resources, and no top level player would utilize that function.

Finally, there is no RTS you can name that skill level isn't improved by a higher APM. Certainly with Starcraft you get more from a higher APM, but the fact remains. It's a simple fact that one of the game resources in any RTS (by definition) is player time, and players who utilize that resource more effectively (higher APM) do better.

Your fundamental assertion isn't unsound; Starcraft is clickier than many other RTSes. Incidentally, SC has a much higher skillcap than TA. And we'll get into the "hardcore vs casual" discussion later, but I can't think of a more harder-core RTS than SC for the reasons we've already described.

 

[TheCowburner]

If you need to queue more than 5 units, that means you need to build more unit producing buildings. You should never have that much money in the bank or spend it that way (by queuing units).

But what if:
1)I have that much money and 2) I want to queue up more units? Shouldn't the game then allow me to do that?

Other complaints are valid (to an extent), but they are all addressed in SC2 (even in WC3, I would say).

They are? Good, becaue in that case I want to play it too. But what about these?:

-Projectiles in Starcraft always hit their target and do damage, whether it appears so or not. (CRAP)
-Units in Starcraft cannot fire while moving. (CRAP)
-Many weapons in Starcraft do not have projectiles. For example, there is a siege tank with its massive artillery shells and marines' gauss rifles that travel at infinite velocity, and then the explosion just appears on the target. (CRAP)
-In Starcraft if your hatchery/command center/nexus is destroyed, you keep your resources somehow, so that marine had better have deep pockets. (CRAP)
-In Starcraft a marine can shoot a burrowed Zergling on the other side of a mountain wall past a barracks behind a tree underneath a Siege tank with pinpoint accuracy! (CRAP)
-In Total Annihilation, most weapons as well as units are an object in the game, meaning that a Big Bertha could very well hit a bomber flying past or a nuke could hit a fighter flying overhead. In Starcraft, all weapons are mere graphical effects, and nothing like this can ever happen. (CRAP)
-In Starcraft, flying units do not fly; they hover. They are more like flying vehicles. All air units in Total Annihilation use a physics engine to determine the flight path, really bank, and do not stop in mid air like all flying units in Starcraft. (CRAP)
-In Starcraft, you can't deselect your selected unit ever, unless they die or go into a assimilator/extractor! (CRAP)
-In Starcraft, aircraft can not land. (CRAP)
-In Starcraft, all units shoot in a circular radius, including through wall and over cliffs. The projectiles are not effected by elevation, wind, or gravity. (CRAP)
-In Starcraft, there is no way to reclaim the minerals of dead units, buildings, and incomplete buildings (not that there is any debris from buildings, of course, as it "magically disappears"). (CRAP)
-In Starcraft, when a construction unit builds a structure, or a unit plant builds a unit, no other units can help construct, hence the build speed cannot be augmented in any way.(CRAP)

 

[TheCowburner]

There's a lot more I could say here, but the Zerg's "crappy" mode of production is actually a gameplay design decision with incredibly important and widespread effects on how that race plays out. Simply put, it's parallel vs. serial production and the designers of TA were not so bold as to include such a fundamental difference in their race design.

You have a point there. The two races in TA weren't really that different. Besides the fact that one of them had cheaper and more agile units, whereas the other one had stronger and slower units, there really wasn't much of a difference.

Queues of 5+ units in competitive play are totally useless and a huge waste of resources, and no top level player would utilize that function.

So simply because “top level players” wouldn’t use it, it shouldn’t be in the game at all?

Finally, there is no RTS you can name that skill level isn't improved by a higher APM.

I haven’t said that. All I have said is what you are saying here:

Starcraft is clickier than many other RTSes.

Incidentally, SC has a much higher skillcap than TA

If skillcap in RTSes has to with the one who clicks the fastest, in that case yes.

 

[MetalCraze]

I take it you haven't played Starcraft on Battle.net? If you need to queue more than 5 units, that means you need to build more unit producing buildings. You should never have that much money in the bank or spend it that way (by queuing units).

That complaint is pretty much valid. And yes you have enough money to queue more than 5 units, especially in the beginning where you build workers and simple infantry which are relatively cheap.

I find other complaints much less valid as those are balancing decisions mostly, even though some of them aren't that comfortable in the game (like 12 units per group limit)

 

[Gerrard]

Seriously you guys, it's popular so it must be good.