Tramboi
Prophet
Betrayal at Krondor should please you, OP, if you ignore the character creation aspect.
It was the exact same when I was talking about NWN2 a while ago.Azrael the cat said:Wyrmlord said:Lord Chambers, here is an interesting result of the Old Codex's marginalisation of those who ever said otherwise.
Relatively new gamers who never played any RPG before 2002 got the idea that old games were full of the theoretical features that Old Codex idealized. Anyone who thought otherwise was obviously wrong, because he was ridiculed.
This led them to bashing even games they previously liked, while getting the idea that old games were different. The result? See this thread:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=31859
racofer said:Alright, the choices in KotOR: Should I paint my wall in White or Black?
THAT TOTALLY CHANGES TEH OUTCOME!
Dark Matter said:Compared to the choices in Fallout:
Should I help Killian or Gizmo? OMG THAT TOTALLY CHANGES EVERYTHING. ONE OF THE ENDING SLIDES IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT!
Should I fight the Master or talk him out of it? THAT TOTALLY CHANGES...well actually that doesn't change anything at all.
Admiral Rimjob POOBUM said:Ssh, they genuinely believe the fabled choice and consequences actually existed to a great degree in the past. Don't spoil it for them.
Can you believe the hypocrisy of *some* people on RPG Codex? Racofer, who was a KotOR fan before he came to RPG Codex during his AVault days, got the idea from the Saint Proverbius crowd that it was his fundamental duty to dislike KotOR. Why? Because it lacked features that never existed in old games. He had not even played Fallout, Torment,.etc at the time, but he believed the mythology related to them.
It's halfway new, halway old posters such as Dark Matter and Admiral Jimbob who have been the voice of sanity and reason here, while pre-2006 and post-2007 periods have been times of trendy hipsters.
This came to its most hilarious climax with Alpha Protocol. There's lots of things you could criticise that game, but it has C+C coming out the whazoo. Much much more than the 'choices' in Deus Ex, where at most you get a bonus throw-away line by a character, or (if you kill a character) a different NPC saying exactly the same thing as the old one would have if you hadn't killed him. In AP you get an insane degree of different allies, different bosses, different difficulty of enemies, sometimes you might get backup soldiers where otherwise you'd have none, and the different factions' soldiers would have radically different equipment and tactics - and it was all 'lol...red shirts v blue shirts'. Overlooking the fact that even if it was just red shirts v blue shirts (and it wasn't), that's still a MUCH bigger consequence than 95% of the choices in the lauded older games (which I also played and loved).
villain of the story said:When and where did I miss a probable wall of text by mondblut where he possibly made a case for combat being integral and perhaps even central to RPGs so even though the only circumstantial argument against the idea of RPGs without combat is the lack of such games thus far in history of CRPGs, he possibly makes up some bullshit to pass that as the truth, to the point that even if one were to make such a game, it couldn't be classified as an RPG in his view, so that this attitude ridiculously came to be called "mondblutian"?
Wyrmlord said:But compared to what? Fallout and Torment didn't even have the system for siding with entirely different factions at every step as NWN2, so to what standards are people holding NWN2 as far as "C&C" is concerned? Of course, Fallout and Torment were highly enjoyable for other reasons, but that's only a reminder that this C&C is a trivial issue.
mondblut said:villain of the story said:When and where did I miss a probable wall of text by mondblut where he possibly made a case for combat being integral and perhaps even central to RPGs so even though the only circumstantial argument against the idea of RPGs without combat is the lack of such games thus far in history of CRPGs, he possibly makes up some bullshit to pass that as the truth, to the point that even if one were to make such a game, it couldn't be classified as an RPG in his view, so that this attitude ridiculously came to be called "mondblutian"?
There is no need for walls of text, other than the two very obvious axioms:
One, RPGs have been invented as a subtype of tactical wargames characterized by players' complete freedom to act (improvise) and do whatever they want within and in between the combat scenarios;
Two, said freedom naturally includes freedom to stomp anybody the players wish into the pavement.
"RPG without combat" is a car without engine AND wheels. Enjoy the drive
RPG gamers are just like woeminz.Wyrmlord said:One of the reasons why the old Codex never got the game they wanted.Castanova said:What would be the point?
If you want to solve non-combat problems that are actually challenging, they need to be puzzles designed for YOU to solve, not your character. If you only need a WIS > 10 to solve a given puzzle then that's not challenging... you're just playing a CYA book.
They want both a) use of stats, and b) challenging non-combat problems. The two are fundamentally different things.
Jeff Vogel often said that people on forums keep giving him some advice about how to make a roleplaying game, and he keeps disregarding them. Obviously, it is impossible to follow one suggestion without going against another; gamers have contradictory suggestions, as the above case shows. That's why he sticks to the fundamentals - getting more powerful and getting more equipment - and irrespective of what gamers keep claiming about how much importance they give to those features, their demonstrated preference (in terms of sales and post-release feedback) shows that this is exactly what they want.
villain of the story said:entirely ruling something out as an option... There is still player freedom
Initially everything is invented as something and then transforms into many different things. Things we call evolving and maturing.
That was me and I think that was still an utterly stupid thing to say because no one, no one has ever actually praised NWN2's abundance of choices. You could just as easily say that BG2 also has an abundance of c&c because you can side with thieves or vampires, or side with the fish prince or the fish king or give the dragon its eggs back or sacrifice them to a demon. And so on.Wyrmlord said:It was the exact same when I was talking about NWN2 a while ago.
I said that NWN2 was bad despite its abundance of fabled choices and consequences. Somebody countered that NWN2 had superficial choices and consequences, so it's not a good example.
Well it's a good thing that there are more games out there than Fallout and Torment. And every step? As far I know the only mutually exclusive lines are the thieves/watch at the beginning and with/against the Shadow King at the end.But compared to what? Fallout and Torment didn't even have the system for siding with entirely different factions at every step as NWN2, so to what standards are people holding NWN2 as far as "C&C" is concerned?
mondblut said:If punching someone in the face is "entirely ruled out as an option", there is no player freedom period.
Initially everything is invented as something and then transforms into many different things. Things we call evolving and maturing.
That's called "A Bethesda-Bioware argument". For a reason.
(but yeah, you are right. It indeed transforms into many different things. Different from RPGs)
That's a pretty retarded statement since combat is just one of the theoretically infinite amount of possible choices you might have in a game ("total freedom" is never going to happen in games anyway). But if there's not a non-combat option, you can't really choose either. And I think this is what the OP is looking for: a game that has RPG elements that transcend the entire setting instead of just the combat part, which, if executed properly, would naturally mean more choice for the player.coldcrow said:Total freedom is the ability to choose. You cannot choose if there is no combat option.
Gee Wormfood (to reuse Shannow's "honorific"), for a guy worthy of appearing in jimbob's comics, you sure seem to have a peculiar view of the matter. I'm sure you've just been waiting for an ill-informed 2011 newfag's drunk post about the topic, so here goes:Wyrmlord said:I merely say, "No game has actually had the qualities you demand from it, so why are you using your fake, made-up, arbitrary criteria, instead of just looking at the features that RPGs actually have? Do you even like this genre?"
I am not prophesising. Do you know that those criteria are based on contradictory demands that negate themselves? They have made it logically impossible for their ideal game to exist. On grounds of "roleplaying", they may idealise one-character games, and on grounds of tactics they may idealise challenging turn-based combat, but then they want challenging turn-based combat with only one character?
Old Codex turned its preference in RPGs into a religious doctrine, not realizing that this has been a genre with broad room for anything ranging from Dungeon Master/Eye of the Beholder to Daggerfall/Ultima Underworld to Realms of Arkania/Darklands to Fallout/Arcanum to Gold Box to Ultima/Torment to MM/Wizardry. Yet, by the rigid criteria that some of them hold, they reject 95% of RPGs ever made.
kaizoku said:Your argument on PS:T "hurr dur INT and WIS" doesn't make sense at all and makes me think you trollin'.
If you don't want combat, then combat related stats are useless, only remaining the INT and WIS (ok, you can imagine some related ones, but not much more).
CappenVarra said:
Gord said:Go play a roguelike, it's easily offering all you are looking for in an rpg.
coldcrow said:This is the point where I have to question the ability of some posters to actually read and comprehend.
Total freedom is the ability to choose. You cannot choose if there is no combat option. A good RPG would have a good (preferably TB) combat system + well done story hooks, which could be expanded upon and not turned into some biowarian faggotry.
mondblut said:Gord said:Go play a roguelike, it's easily offering all you are looking for in an rpg.
No parties. Shitty pacman combat. Fighting alphabet.
Good call on the attributes issue.jancobblepot said: