WanderingThrough2
Scholar
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
- Messages
- 224
I'm not even sure what the point we're debating is. As I understood it, the question was whether, as set up in MOTB, the Wall of the Faithless was a moral outrage. I don't think it is because I think it's ludicrously easy to avoid ending up there without making any significant ideological or personal sacrifices. The only people who end up there--barring those genuinely ignorant of the Gods--are those who, in spite of the miracles and blessings around them every day, persist in rejecting the higher powers. I don't think those are sympathetic folk. And they are not "atheists" or rationalists.
Your argument seems to have rambled through several different positions. These include:
(1) Even if there are higher beings with their own planes of existence who perform miracles every day around you, it's reasonable to reject their godliness. My response: No, it's not reasonable. In that case, the rational thing to do is respect their enormous power and accept that they set the rules for the world you're in, as is manifested every day around you.
(2) Religion in the FR setting is comparable to religion in the real world, and anyone who thinks irreligious people in FR are silly must be a bigot. My response: This is absurd on its face, but in any event, the reason why atheism is defensible in the real world is that there is no evidence of God, which is also the reason why religion is dubious. The situation is completely reversed in FR. Atheism--the belief in no gods--is nonsensical in that setting.
(3) The Wall of the Faithless impairs player's choices because players will be intimidated into not playing irreligious characters for fear of the Wall. (?) My response: This is nonsensical because, first of all, it has no practical consequences on the player's experience and, second, it is just another form of consequences for a player to deal with. It's like saying, "Having law enforcement in cities in the FR is unfair because it makes it harder to play a reckless thief."
(4) People should not worship the Gods in the FR setting because those Gods are fickle and full of personality flaws; therefore, the Gods in the FR setting should not punish those who do not worship them, since not worshiping them is a reasonable thing to do, even though this would result in the Gods losing their power and dying. My response: Where there are no concrete benefits to worship, the only reason for doing so is respect. But the Gods of the FR don't ask for worship because they're flawless, they ask for it as part of quid-pro-quo exchange that involves enormous blessings. Worship in FR is like paying taxes in real life. Even if you don't love the government, you pay for it because you get benefits from having it around. And punishing those who don't worship in FR is like punishing those who object to paying taxes: it's a totally rational thing for the government to do, and probably, on balance, fair, except when a government is totally reprehensible.
Your argument seems to have rambled through several different positions. These include:
(1) Even if there are higher beings with their own planes of existence who perform miracles every day around you, it's reasonable to reject their godliness. My response: No, it's not reasonable. In that case, the rational thing to do is respect their enormous power and accept that they set the rules for the world you're in, as is manifested every day around you.
(2) Religion in the FR setting is comparable to religion in the real world, and anyone who thinks irreligious people in FR are silly must be a bigot. My response: This is absurd on its face, but in any event, the reason why atheism is defensible in the real world is that there is no evidence of God, which is also the reason why religion is dubious. The situation is completely reversed in FR. Atheism--the belief in no gods--is nonsensical in that setting.
(3) The Wall of the Faithless impairs player's choices because players will be intimidated into not playing irreligious characters for fear of the Wall. (?) My response: This is nonsensical because, first of all, it has no practical consequences on the player's experience and, second, it is just another form of consequences for a player to deal with. It's like saying, "Having law enforcement in cities in the FR is unfair because it makes it harder to play a reckless thief."
(4) People should not worship the Gods in the FR setting because those Gods are fickle and full of personality flaws; therefore, the Gods in the FR setting should not punish those who do not worship them, since not worshiping them is a reasonable thing to do, even though this would result in the Gods losing their power and dying. My response: Where there are no concrete benefits to worship, the only reason for doing so is respect. But the Gods of the FR don't ask for worship because they're flawless, they ask for it as part of quid-pro-quo exchange that involves enormous blessings. Worship in FR is like paying taxes in real life. Even if you don't love the government, you pay for it because you get benefits from having it around. And punishing those who don't worship in FR is like punishing those who object to paying taxes: it's a totally rational thing for the government to do, and probably, on balance, fair, except when a government is totally reprehensible.
Which flatly contradicts the explanation of how Myrkul is using the Spirit Eater to stay alive.Plus, if belief was all it took, then rather than a god's power being dependent on the number of his faithful, he would draw power from everyone who believes that he exists, whether they follow other gods or not. Which is not the case: gods need people who think of them as "patron deities."