Medieval War Game

[vitellus]

i'm looking for something with the complexity and depth of



with the focus on both operational level and troop level planning,

but takes place before the advent of gunpowder on the battlefields of europe. prefer it to be medieval but this is niche on niche so i am expecting very little beyond stronghold and crusader kings and battle brothers and its million clones to be suggested.

 

[Lacrymas]

Field of Glory 2: Medieval for a tactical game. There's no strategy layer though.

 

[JarlFrank]

Some mods for Medieval 2 Total War go pretty in-depth although there's no logistics or anything, the main complexity is in the battles.

As Lacrymas said, Field of Glory 2: Medieval is also great for tactical battles but unlike Total War there's no strategic layer at all.

 

[Galdred]

i'm looking for something with the complexity and depth of



with the focus on both operational level and troop level planning,

but takes place before the advent of gunpowder on the battlefields of europe. prefer it to be medieval but this is niche on niche so i am expecting very little beyond stronghold and crusader kings and battle brothers and its million clones to be suggested.

You won't find anything remotely as complex. There are indeed very very few medieval wargames to start with. Also, operational level is more recent, and not very suited to ancient/medieval warfare, because of the very low density of troops (and the lack of a continuous front). That said, a game focusing on chevauchées and raids would be similar in scale in a way. However, the second issue is that most medieval strategy games focus on the tactical side of things, or have a very abstract warfare (aka, crusader kings).

I too have been looking for such a game, but there are none that covers strategic level warfare (unless you go tabletop). There is Field of glory: Kingdom in the making, but that is more like a strategy game with optional tactical battles to play in FOG2, but that means that your forces get abstracted (as they are generated loosely from your strategic forces).

You could also try your luck with adjacent games, like the Nobunaga Ambition ones (but I haven't tried them), or ancient games like the Hegemony series (which has seamless transition from strategic to tactical layer, with a strong focus on logitstics).
I also played Takeda 3 a very long time ago, but I don't remember much about it (and how it compared to Shogun Total War).


Otherwise, the closest you'll get may sadly be Medieval 2 Total War, and its derivatives (Real Warfare 1242, Real Warfare 2: Northern Crusades), and the medieval cousins of King Arthur (The king's Crusade, Crusaders).

Real Warfare 2 is more like a mix of Mount and Blade and Total War (but the balance was horrible iirc, and you were usually better just replacing low level troops than trying to get anything upgraded).

When it comes to pen and paper wargames, you have the Cry Havoc/guiscard/Diex Aie series that combines tactical and strategic play, but it is more like a skirmish generator than a real strategic campaign. The combat system is also very very old school, even compared to other wargames (it is a remake of the old Cry Havoc series, that was already out of print when I wanted to get it in 1995).

Spoiler

And I remember playing a few games focusing on the "chevauchées" level from the Vae Victis magazine(issue 160 about Brittany, and 118 about crusades, 115 about Burgunday for instance), but they all seem out of print.

 

[AdamReith]

Does operational art of war 4 have any medieval scenarios?

 

[Galdred]

Does operational art of war 4 have any medieval scenarios?

I haven't found any, but I recall TOAW having a War of the ring scenario, but I am not sure whether :
https://archive.org/details/wargamer-depot-toaw-century-of-warfare

It seems there was one, and several other medieval ones. I hadn't tried them back then, so I don't know whether it works (I mean, the battle system seems a very poor fit for the period!). I don't think it has been ported to TOAW 4.
There is an ancient scenario for Advanced Tactics WW2 here too.

 

[Beowulf]

There was this title, that was supposedly operational in scope, but I have not played it personally and there are too few opinions to really gauge what is the real quality.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

i'm looking for something with the complexity and depth of



with the focus on both operational level and troop level planning,

but takes place before the advent of gunpowder on the battlefields of europe. prefer it to be medieval but this is niche on niche so i am expecting very little beyond stronghold and crusader kings and battle brothers and its million clones to be suggested.

You won't find anything remotely as complex. There are indeed very very few medieval wargames to start with. Also, operational level is more recent, and not very suited to ancient/medieval warfare, because of the very low density of troops (and the lack of a continuous front). That said, a game focusing on chevauchées and raids would be similar in scale in a way. However, the second issue is that most medieval strategy games focus on the tactical side of things, or have a very abstract warfare (aka, crusader kings).

I too have been looking for such a game, but there are none that covers strategic level warfare (unless you go tabletop). There is Field of glory: Kingdom in the making, but that is more like a strategy game with optional tactical battles to play in FOG2, but that means that your forces get abstracted (as they are generated loosely from your strategic forces).

You could also try your luck with adjacent games, like the Nobunaga Ambition ones (but I haven't tried them), or ancient games like the Hegemony series (which has seamless transition from strategic to tactical layer, with a strong focus on logitstics).
I also played Takeda 3 a very long time ago, but I don't remember much about it (and how it compared to Shogun Total War).


Otherwise, the closest you'll get may sadly be Medieval 2 Total War, and its derivatives (Real Warfare 1242, Real Warfare 2: Northern Crusades), and the medieval cousins of King Arthur (The king's Crusade, Crusaders).

Real Warfare 2 is more like a mix of Mount and Blade and Total War (but the balance was horrible iirc, and you were usually better just replacing low level troops than trying to get anything upgraded).

When it comes to pen and paper wargames, you have the Cry Havoc/guiscard/Diex Aie series that combines tactical and strategic play, but it is more like a skirmish generator than a real strategic campaign. The combat system is also very very old school, even compared to other wargames (it is a remake of the old Cry Havoc series, that was already out of print when I wanted to get it in 1995).

Spoiler

And I remember playing a few games focusing on the "chevauchées" level from the Vae Victis magazine(issue 160 about Brittany, and 118 about crusades, 115 about Burgunday for instance), but they all seem out of print.

if one is willing to play board games, thee are a lot to choose from, although fairly involved and complicated. I have played solitare before and once you get into it, its actually pretty fun...its just a lot of rules and set-up, but its pretty engaging if you put in the time. Example:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/6202/rise-roman-republic

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/13855/carthage-first-punic-war-ancient-world-vol-ii

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/39019/nothing-gained-glory

The 1st two were more operational/strategic level, the last one was more tactical single battle level, but there are actually tons of these games and they are still constantly being made and the modern rules are better written, easier to understand and the components are nicer. You can play on Vassel against people too and never actually need to set up the pieces if that is something you want to do as well..

Unfortunately they don't really make a lot of games like this for the computer. I guess there is not a large enough audience. I suppose there is the field of glory series which is pretty fun, but not really an operational wargame.

 

[manassassas]

i'm looking for something with the complexity and depth of



with the focus on both operational level and troop level planning,

but takes place before the advent of gunpowder on the battlefields of europe. prefer it to be medieval but this is niche on niche so i am expecting very little beyond stronghold and crusader kings and battle brothers and its million clones to be suggested.

Any Ageod game might be in the ballpark of you are looking for, but they have never made a medieval title I know of. Their games are pretty good at representing the impact of supplies, weather and geography of moving troops. Learning curve is steep though.

 

[vitellus]

i'm looking for something with the complexity and depth of



with the focus on both operational level and troop level planning,

but takes place before the advent of gunpowder on the battlefields of europe. prefer it to be medieval but this is niche on niche so i am expecting very little beyond stronghold and crusader kings and battle brothers and its million clones to be suggested.

Any Ageod game might be in the ballpark of you are looking for, but they have never made a medieval title I know of. Their games are pretty good at representing the impact of supplies, weather and geography of moving troops. Learning curve is steep though.

will definitely have to look into that, it's cheap so that's a plus rather than war in the east. gonna pick this up later today and give it a try it looks almost what i am looking for. nice fuckin' find. thanks to all for the suggestions,

holla_cabezas_de_mierda​

if i had friends in the real world as nerdy as i am, i would have a closet full of board wargames!

 

[Galdred]

There was this title, that was supposedly operational in scope, but I have not played it personally and there are too few opinions to really gauge what is the real quality.

According to the reviews, it plays more like a Panzer General without unit carryover.

This one seems to be an interesting take on the mercenary company idea. Still not operational, but it looks to be larger scale than the usual Battle Brothers wannabees:


This one seems to be a faithful port of a medieval themed board wargame:

I have played neither version, though, but I considered getting the board game until I realized there is no way I can play games that feature any kind of diplomacy with my group.

Also from Avalon Hill, Richards 3 is a 1v1 strategic wargame about the War of hte Roses. It is a block game, which means that you get some heavy fog of war element, but it obvious has a very simplified battle resolution system.


I haven't tried this one in particular, but after having played wargames and board games with blocks (or face down counters), I cannot imagine going back to games that let you see all of your opponent moves on the strategic level (obviously, it is the default for PC games, but relatively few board games have hidden information).

Not a wargame at all, and you probably played it already. The tactical layer is terribly simplistic, but the strategic one made logistics pretty important. Iirc, your troops would feed off the land unless you sent supply carts with your troops, resulting on peasants become hungry and angry (which could be the point, if they are stationed in your opponent's demesne):

https://af.gog.com/en/game/lords_of_the_realm_royal_edition?as=1649904300

The issue with both LOTR is that the tactical battles are RTS grade ones.

The 1st one (abandonware I think) had interesting sieges in which you had to allocate troops between building siege equipment, preparing assaults, and something else (foraging? Blocakding?).
LoTR 2 had more gamey castle assaults, but they were the coolest I remember (I much preferred them over Stronghold actually).

There are also several ancient games on HPS website (and two medieval ones, Vengeance and An Laoch Ri - The Warrior King), but their prices are quite high (not sure they ever do sales).

Also digging what is available on Slitherine side, I found a few quite old games:

- History: Great Battles Medieval (it seems to features Total War like battles, and army selection/upgrade between battles, like quite a few games I listed in a previous post).
- Great Invasions, one of the earlies Ageod games (with an UI that was probably rough back in the days).

Also from Slitherine, their classic games on Steam seem to combine "operational level" with tactical battles:



I think it is the closest you'd get from what you are looking for, even though these are all set in ancient times. They seem nowhere near as complex as War in the East/West, though (and seem to have streamlined strategic and tactical gameplay).

Other games in the series are Legion Gold, Spartan and Gates of Troy (I don't know why ancient games outnumber medieval ones 5 to 1...).

Actually, I had a similar question some time ago here on the codex.

 

[JarlFrank]

This one seems to be an interesting take on the mercenary company idea. Still not operational, but it looks to be larger scale than the usual Battle Brothers wannabees:

I played this one. It's got TW-style real time battles (but much more abstracted than TW), but the campaign mode is pretty linear. It's a series of quests, some optional, which follow pre-determined paths. There's no free world exploration like Battle Brothers or Mount and Blade.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

i'm looking for something with the complexity and depth of



with the focus on both operational level and troop level planning,

but takes place before the advent of gunpowder on the battlefields of europe. prefer it to be medieval but this is niche on niche so i am expecting very little beyond stronghold and crusader kings and battle brothers and its million clones to be suggested.

Any Ageod game might be in the ballpark of you are looking for, but they have never made a medieval title I know of. Their games are pretty good at representing the impact of supplies, weather and geography of moving troops. Learning curve is steep though.

will definitely have to look into that, it's cheap so that's a plus rather than war in the east. gonna pick this up later today and give it a try it looks almost what i am looking for. nice fuckin' find. thanks to all for the suggestions,

holla_cabezas_de_mierda​

if i had friends in the real world as nerdy as i am, i would have a closet full of board wargames!

for sure, I do have a closet full of board war games. Me and my brother used to play them against each other, then he had a little girl and we played maybe once a year after that, and later he had another kid and we have not played since....that was 15 years ago. Only time I have played since then is solitaire against myself, which is not so bad actually, in fact much better than it sounds, but not nearly as fun as when my brother and I would play.

I used to think when I was young and did not have much money that when I was older I could afford more games and my brother and friends would be able to play all the time. Now I have the ability to buy pretty much any game I want, nobody has time (or desire in some cases)...

 

[Galdred]

Even on the board game side, there are very few games focusing (or even trying to represent) the logistical side of medieval warfare. Most focus on the famous tactical battles.

The old Aquitaine game tried to represent it (the English objective is to loot as much as possible, and the French one is to get a decisive victory anywhere, or rout enough English units).

It seems that the Levy and Campaign games, by Volko Ruhnke that focus on the operational side (with a strong focus on managing vassals and logistics). I just found out about:

Plantagenet seems to be one of the most recent, and Henry: The Agincourt Campaign should be the next installment.

The one about the Reconquista has a TableTop Simulator module, and the one about the wars in Italy has a vassal one, so they both can be played online with Internet friends. 2-4h is quite heavy for a 2p game, but they seem to feature solitaire playn, though.

 

[Beowulf]

Even on the board game side, there are very few games focusing (or even trying to represent) the logistical side of medieval warfare. Most focus on the famous tactical battles.

The old Aquitaine game tried to represent it (the English objective is to loot as much as possible, and the French one is to get a decisive victory anywhere, or rout enough English units).

It seems that the Levy and Campaign games, by Volko Ruhnke that focus on the operational side (with a strong focus on managing vassals and logistics). I just found out about:

Plantagenet seems to be one of the most recent, and Henry: The Agincourt Campaign should be the next installment.

The one about the Reconquista has a TableTop Simulator module, and the one about the wars in Italy has a vassal one, so they both can be played online with Internet friends. 2-4h is quite heavy for a 2p game, but they seem to feature solitaire playn, though.

All of them have vassal modules, and the first module, about northern crusades, has a very nice online implementation on Rally the troops so you can easily play async in your browser, even on tablet.
The 2-4h playtime might be true only for the smallest scenarios or gamers with previous experience of the system and good grasp of the rules, but full campaign still would be leaning into 8h +, depending on the title of course.
The is no solitaire play to speak of - the rulebooks advise to play two sides to the best of your abilities. Henry might feature a dedicated solo mode, as it should feature only one campaign season and should be relatively quick.
The games are nice (I've played first 3 tittles), but are mostly about logistics and campaign planning. The battles don't really feature any tactical decisions apart from making a decision to withdraw or what unit to target with crossbows, and that's it.
But the games are good, if you have someone to play with, I'd advise getting the one that covers the time period you're most interested with.
The most recent one - already mentioned Plantagenet, is the easiest in terms of the rules.