KickStarter Free Stars: Children of Infinity - upcoming Star Control 2 sequel from Fred Ford's Pistol Shrimp Games - Kickstarter Live

[Humanity has risen!]

Yeah, he seems to think that if they change the art then it won't be copyright infringement.

Which will be the case. It's not like stuff like this doesn't happen all the time. Haven't you seen how Gameloft at some point made mobile ports of every popular AAA console game? They even had internal manuals to indicate their employees how much to alter the art from the original games so they wouldn't get sued.

 

[Dreed]

Toys for Bob made the Skylanders franchise, by all logic and reason they should have enough money NOT to need to come begging to their fanbase for lawbucks.

They are also releasing the Spyro trilogy remake very soon, it will sell like hotcakes.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Some honesty here:

I can't help but notice that he's dodging the actual question, which goes a long way to suggest that Paul and Fred might have a point. I was reluctant to believe them, if only because it made Stardock seem like fucking Disney villains. Then again there are lawyers involved so I guess I shouldn't be surprised... What did Paul and Fred do to "burn down Stardock's IP" anyway?

Wait. "Stardock doesn’t own the copyrights in Star Control 2. But it does own the trademarks. We can’t use the copyrights without a license from the IP holders and they can’t use the trademarks without a license from us."
I thought Stardock were the IP holders? What?

 

[Infinitron]

He's been using the term "IP" in the general sense. Technically a trademark is also an intellectual property, so Stardock owns that "Star Control IP".

 

[Strange Fellow]

He's been using the term "IP" in the general sense. Technically a trademark is also an intellectual property, so Stardock owns that "Star Control IP".

So if I'm understanding this correctly, F&P and Stardock would need to licence stuff off each other in order for both of them to make use of the entirety of SC's assets (the name, aliens, what have you). Still, the more I look at it the less sense it makes to me.
Wardell says: "If you’re going to try to cancel someone’s trademark, don’t be surprised when they vigorously begin to lock down their IP."
This "vigorous locking down" he's referring to is Stardock's trademark from earlier this year right? Yet he claims that this was a response on Stardock's part to the attempts of F&P to cancel their trademark? Is he then referring to the trademark which iirc gives Stardock the right to the name, but not the aliens? If so, why are they suddenly going around showing off the Arilou? Or is he referring to some other trademark which gives Stardock unanimous ownership of all SC assets, as is implied by the earlier tweet: "Stardock owns all the trademarks. So Star Control games can have the Star Control aliens." Is this the trademark deal that was arranged earlier this year? If so, what power remains with F&P? Moreover, if that is indeed the case, then it seems to me like Stardock's locking down of "their" IP via registrering a trademark is a reaction to F&P trying to cancel that same trademark, which was registered as a reaction to F&P trying to cancel the trademark, which was registered as a reaction to.... and so on.

 

[Deathsquid]

You might wanna find an actual copyright lawyer for those questions because common sense and IP laws are not necessarily synonymous.

 

[Infinitron]

If so, why are they suddenly going around showing off the Arilou? Or is he referring to some other trademark which gives Stardock unanimous ownership of all SC assets, as is implied by the earlier tweet: "Stardock owns all the trademarks. So Star Control games can have the Star Control aliens." Is this the trademark deal that was arranged earlier this year?

A trademark is the right to use a particular title and that's it. It should not be giving Stardock the right to use alien races from the original games. Hence my confusion.

As I said earlier in this thread, unless there's something we're missing here, I think Stardock are on legally shaky ground and if this goes to court in the end they'll probably lose. But that could take years. Better to make a deal!

 

[Strange Fellow]

Yeah so they pretty much are Disney villains then. Or maybe mafiosos, making Fred and Paul an offer they can't refuse. The offer being to not get fucked by a company with more money to spend on lawyers than they do. It's amazing how blatant you can be about pretty much out and out stealing, as long as you're good for the lawyer fees. Man, fuck 'em. I'd much rather see Ghosts of the Precursors than Origins, but it looks like money talks once again.

 

[Infinitron]

It's hard to believe the Toys for Bob guys don't have money to fight this battle. Their crowdfunding campaign looks like a misguided PR strategy. They want to publicly shame Stardock into relenting.

The problem is that not that many people really care lol. These are old games.

 

[Strange Fellow]

At the same time, Stardock seems to have done away with all pretense here and are basically saying "fuck you, you're not stopping us from doing whatever the fuck we like with your copyrighted material unless you spend millions of dollars to make us!" It’s a much scummier move than what Fred and Paul are doing IMO. The thing is, even though they’re in the right, who is going to give two million dollars worth of a fuck?

Maybe it's a worldview thing. If someone lines up with their ass bare, to be kicked by the Man, like Fred and Paul have done, I still have a tendecy to blame the Man for doing the kicking.

 

[Strange Fellow]

That said, I'd never support that Suitstarter in a million years. They want my money to make a case they may not even win, so they can acquire the legal rights to make a game that might not even happen, and which they'll then charge me for buying? Lol

 

[Dexter]

Maybe it's a worldview thing. If someone lines up with their ass bare, to be kicked by the Man, like Fred and Paul have done, I still have a tendecy to blame the Man for doing the kicking.

"Fred and Paul" work for Activision as studio heads working on a franchise worth $3 billion+ dollars: https://www.fool.com/investing/gene...n-blizzard-incs-new-3-billion-skylanders.aspx
In gaming it doesn't really get any more "the Man" than that: https://www.toysforbob.com/about

Toys For Bob are the creators of the innovative, new Skylanders video game and toy franchise.

We've made games for over 22 years now on every conceivable platform and have never worked harder and been more proud of anything we’ve ever done. In games and in life. Well, maybe those of us with children are a little more proud of them but Skylanders is a pretty close #2. Or maybe it’s a tie for #1 because to us, Skylanders is our baby.

Our studio was founded by Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford, is located in lovely Novato, CA, is owned by equally lovely Activision-Blizzard, Inc., and generally advocates the relocation of polar bears to Antarctica. Besides that, our dream is to keep making fun games and now, awesome toys forever and ever.

Also here's "what happened" from Stardocks side: https://www.stardock.com/games/star...0/qa-regarding-star-control-and-paul-and-fred

Spoiler

Q: How did these unfortunate events come to pass?

A: Here is a timeline of the order of events:

1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to use the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games. The DOS games are already available on GOG with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
2. Stardock discuss plans for the new Star Control. They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Coxntrol game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so. (2013)
3. 
4. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari:
5. Ehttps://www.reddit.com/r/starcontrol/comments/8nnwpe/i_was_really_excited_about_star_control_origins/…
6. Paul and Fred receive word that Activision won't allow it to work on Star Control with Stardock (2013)
7. Upon learning that Activision has blocked their ability to be involved and that Paul and Fred hope to one day to continue their stories, Stardock offers to transfer its rights to Star Control to them, thus uniting the Star Control brand with Paul and Fred's licensed IP. (2013)
8. 
9. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari to which Stardock responds: The trademark, assets to Star Control 3 and the right to sell distribute, market and promote the original trilogy.
10. 
11. Paul acknowledges Stardock's position and asks how much it cost.
12. 
13. Paul and Fred politely decline the offer to acquire the Star Control IP. (2013)
14. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
15. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
16. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots. Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
17. 
18. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels. Stardock asks if there would be any interest in having SC2 ships appear in Super-Melee. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
19. 
20. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe. (Fall 2017)
21. 
22. Stardock is both pleased and concerned about the timing of their plan, points out the licensing agreement would allow Stardock to use their IP (albeit at a higher royalty than Stardock was hoping for). Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion and about the games appearing competitive. (Fall 2017)
23. 
24. Paul and Fred state they plan to make a sequel to Star Control II which would violate Stardock's trademark rights (you can't claim your product is a sequel to another company's product). Paul and Fred also assert that Stardock does not have a license to their IP.
25. 
26. Stardock responds stating that as far as Stardock is aware, while Paul and Fred own the IP they created, Stardock does have an active licensing agreement that controls how that IP can and can't be used. Stardock also reiterates that it has not used this license out of respect for Paul and Fred. (October 2017)
27. 
28. Stardock states its concern at the idea of Paul and Fred representing their game as a "direct sequel", asks to schedule a call to discuss. Note that at this point, Brad, like many, is under the impression that Paul and Fred essentially created Star Control on their own, a two-man team with licensed music was not uncommon thing back in 1992 (Stardock later re-evaluates that position after learning that the project had a large budget for 1990 and immense talent on it). (October 2017)
29. Paul and Fred respond that they simply don't agree but provide no evidence as to why the licensing agreement would have expired. (October 2017)
30. 
31. Stardock provides its reviewed legal position. Stardock isn't using any IP from the classic games other than the right to market and sell them as they have been for several years. (October 2017)
32. Stardock points out that it has a license to the IP to use provided it pays a royalty of 10% (which is why Stardock has asked in the past for a new licensing agreement as 10% is too much for a cameo of a classic character). Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell suggests talking on the phone to iron things out. (October 2017).
33. Email includes proposal:
34. 
35. Paul and Fred refuse Stardock's proposal and begin to demand changes to Star Control: Origins.
36. 
37. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (October)
38. 
39. The Star Control trademark is mentioned 4 times in the announcement, each with an (R) without mentioning Stardock leading a reasonable consumer to believe it is their mark (Ghosts of the Precursors is listed once).
40. Paul and Fred claim they "released" Star Control II on the same page that shows Star Control II with the Accolade mark misleading the relationship between Accolade and Paul and Fred (who, regardless of their tremendous work, were contracted by Accolade to create content that was then licensed into Accolade's product).
41. The media follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
42. Paul and Fred promote the idea that it's Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors and not its own game:
43. 
44. The above is one example among dozens.
45. Paul and Fred publicize coverage of their new game with each post using the Star Control mark but not a single one using the term "Ghosts of the Precursors". Looking below, what's the name of their new game?
46. 
47. Many posts and articles appear, endorsed by Paul and Fred that state that their new game is a "direct sequel" to Star Control. Some refer to it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.
48. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary on Steam. (October)
49. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO. This is the first time lawyers have been involved. Lawyers take over. (October)
50. Paul and Fred begin to demand that Stardock begin policing the Star Control community for fan art that they believe violates their rights (including members of this forum and on Steam). (October)
51. Paul and Fred begin demanding the removal of features from Star Control: Origins including the ship designer (a feature that has been part of Stardock's games for over a decade). (October)
52. Paul and Fred begin demanding insider builds of Star Control: Origins for inspection and begin insisting various broad features are their property despite having no right to do so. (October)
53. Paul and Fred reject numerous attempts to create a co-existence agreement that would permit Ghosts of the Precursors to go forward independently. (November)
54. Paul and Fred insist they have the right to associate their game with Stardock's trademarks including referring to their game as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (November)
55. Paul and Fred demand that the DOS games be removed from distribution while still providing no evidence to support their claim that the agreement had expired. (November)
56. Paul and Fred begin to make public defamatory blog posts and tweets about Stardock. (December)
57. Paul and Fred file DMCA notices against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the federally registered copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
58. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
59. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (February).
60. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock of "copyright theft" do press interviews attacking Stardock. (February)
61. This post is initially made. (February)
62. Paul and Fred post an email exchange they claim is between themselves and Atari, something they had not shown to Stardock and still have not provided to Stardock to evaluate.
63. Paul and Fred post what they claim is a Stardock settlement proposal in violation of federal rule 408. Stardock denies the accuracy. (March)
64. Paul and Fred's PR firm targets Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell personally on Twitter for abuse with an inflammatory and completely inaccurate social media post. (March)
65. 
66. Paul and Fred like a tweet that purports that these activities have cost Stardock up to 50% of potential sales and may lead to review bombing of the final game: (March)
67. 
68. To make clear that Stardock's concern is regarding the protection of its Star Control IP and not the sales of Star Control: Ur-Quan Masters, it decides that it will be suspend sales of the classic games until the dispute is resolved starting April 4. (March 2018).

Wardell is also of the opinion that they may be bluffing:

 

[Pope Amole II]

That's so disgusting, TBH. I can't even comment on that - dudes just got crazy. They've been treated with as much respect as possible and they just shat on that.

Well, being a nice author doesn't guarantee being a nice guy and, more than that, people change. 25 years is a hell of a long time.

 

[Strange Fellow]

"Fred and Paul" work for Activision and are studio owners, in gaming it doesn't really get any more "the Man" than that.

As far as I know Activision isn't involved in the development and/or legal drama surrounding GotP at all, so that is neither here nor there. I was referring to the fucked up US legal system and the people who leverage it in their favour.

That last tweet tells me that Stardock now has both the trademark AND the copyright on the SC IP, which is news to me, and inconsistent with the tweet that Infinitron posted yesterday, wherein Wardell claims that Stardock owns the trademark and Fred and Paul own the copyright.

Far be it from me though to imply that Fred and Paul are blameless here, that wasn't my intention at all. In fact, if what Wardell says regarding the copyright is true, then the blame for this whole mess falls squarely on them. Imagine the shitstorm that would ensue if the Suitstarter were successful and Fred and Paul take this to court, only to lose because they don't have a case worth a damn...

Regardless of who actually owns what, the one thing I can say with absolute certainty is that Fred and Paul have handled this absolutely horribly, and with this crowdfunding, which I agree with Infinitron seems like a hilariously misguided PR attempt, they don't seem to be slowing down.

That's so disgusting, TBH. I can't even comment on that - dudes just got crazy. They've been treated with as much respect as possible and they just shat on that.

Well, being a nice author doesn't guarantee being a nice guy and, more than that, people change. 25 years is a hell of a long time.

To be fair, Fred and Paul's version of the story is wildly different, and neither side has presented any conclusive evidence that I can see.

Still, I'm leaning towards Stardock now. My earlier posts were written with the assumption that Stardock didn't own the copyright, and decided to purposefully break copyright law as a coercion tactic.

 

[Dexter]

That last tweet tells me that Stardock now has both the trademark AND the copyright on the SC IP, which is news to me, and inconsistent with the tweet that Infinitron posted yesterday, wherein Wardell claims that Stardock owns the trademark and Fred and Paul own the copyright.

Read the spoilered section for detailed explanation as to how Stardock/Wardell think the facts lie, including screenshots of E-Mails and other correspondence over multiple years and how Activision is involved.

 

[Strange Fellow]

I did, which is why I say I'm coming around. I didn't read them all too closely though (I'm on my phone atm), and as far as I can tell Activision was only involved insofar as it impeded Fred and Paul's involvement in any active Star Control game development. Which seems reasonable enough, given that they were (are?) Activision employees, and Activision wouldn't see a dime of any profit they'd be making on a non-Activision game.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Anyway, Dexter, two tweets from Wardell: "Stardock doesn’t own the copyrights in Star Control 2. But it does own the trademarks. We can’t use the copyrights without a license from the IP holders and they can’t use the trademarks without a license from us." (5:41 AM, June 25)

"They've actually covered it a bit. The biggest problem is that Paul and Fred don't actually have known IP in Star Control. They simply assert they do. Stardock is the only one with any registered copyrights. No one seems willing to demand Paul and Fred to prove their claims." (10:55 PM, June 25)

I was going to point out an inconsistency here, but I see that he cleverly avoided stating that it is Fred and Paul who own the copyright. So who does?

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah, I read that as Wardell saying that Stardock are the only ones with a provable, public claim on Star Control (via their registered trademark). He seems to be insinuating that Paul and Fred haven't proven to a sufficient degree that they own what they say they do, not that he owns it.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Yeah, I read that as Wardell saying that Stardock are the only ones with a provable, public claim on Star Control (via their registered trademark). He seems to be insinuating that Paul and Fred haven't proven to a sufficient degree that they own what they say they do, not that he owns it.

But he does say that they have the right to use the aliens, and their right to the name was never in contention. So what's left? What is covered by the copyright, who owns it, and does it restrict Stardock from using anything Star Control in any way they please? If it doesn't, what do Fred and Paul possibly think they could achieve by antagonizing Stardock, and if they do own a copyright which has been infringed upon, why oh why don't they show it, especially now that they're asking for money from the public to show it to a court? Man, what a mess.

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, there are boundaries here that are unclear. For example, I believe Wardell has said he can't use the original games' ships. But apparently he can use their alien races (just with different art?)

Is it possible that he looked at who did what in the original games and decided he could use anything that can't be proven to have been personally created by Paul Reiche and Fred Ford?

 

[Strange Fellow]

Inb4 Star Control concept art forgeries.

 

[Deathsquid]

Star Attorney: Assets Control.

Contact me to buy the IPs to this hot property

 

[Strange Fellow]

Star Attorney: Assets Control.

Contact me to buy the IPs to this hot property

Nice try buddy, I actually have that trademarked, and I have the conjecture to prove it. See you in court motherfucker!

Provided my Figstarter works out.

 

[Deathsquid]

Star Attorney: Assets Control.

Contact me to buy the IPs to this hot property

Nice try buddy, I actually have that trademarked, and I have the conjecture to prove it. See you in court motherfucker!

Provided my Figstarter works out.

See you in court, alternatively, you can buy the rights to use my alien races (copyrighted). Just 3000 species, 799$ a pop. Also BRB hiring shady PR firm.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Star Attorney: Assets Control.

Contact me to buy the IPs to this hot property

Nice try buddy, I actually have that trademarked, and I have the conjecture to prove it. See you in court motherfucker!

Provided my Figstarter works out.

See you in court, alternatively, you can buy the rights to use my alien races (copyrighted). Just 3000 species, 799$ a pop. Also BRB hiring shady PR firm.

You should sell the copyrights to each individual race separately, as DLC, Paradox-style. You'll be swimming in it!