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Decline Designers grabbing you by the hand and leading you isn't very fun

Stavrophore

Most trustworthy slavic man
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Strap Yourselves In
Is guessing the developer's intention actually fun though?

I don't think so, there is a reason I never liked those point and click adventure games.

At times the developer's idea of how to solve a problem will be very different from how you'd think it should be solved, you'll have to try a bunch of different solutions and eventually stumble on the one you're allowed to use through trial and error.

That's not a very fun or deep game, a lot of the time the overall experience would be improved by getting rid of it.

This comes from the early years of RPG/adventure gaming, where people bought few games and played them to death, where a typical autist would spend 10-20 hours to travel to all game locations to test combining several items together to unearth easter eggs or other bonus content. Who the hell would be so retarded today to wake up in the morning and said "today i will spent 6 hours after work to combine two items together in various ingame locations to find some easter egg" when you can just move on, play other game, and watch retardo/data miner on youtube who actually compiled all easter eggs in the game?. Not only this has nothing to do with overall game flow and story, it's literally a waste of time trying to do this, unless you don't value your time.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Natural discovery is a great feeling, and even more so when it's the result of a logical conclusion on your part. By presenting the player with all available options you become more of a passive actor, one that merely picks their path, rather than discovering their own. Unfortunately the mainstream audience by-in-large appears to be one without any patience. They're interested in getting through the content, even if it means becoming that passive actor. The moment they do not know what to do to proceed they get frustrated, and many designers believe they should remove those frustrations.
Many such cases:

In regard to education in Brazil, I had a very interesting experience. I was teaching a group of students who would ultimately become teachers, since at that time there were not many opportunities in Brazil for a highly trained person in science. These students had already had many courses, and this was to be their most advanced course in electricity and magnetism - Maxwell's equations, and so on.

The university was located in various office buildings throughout the city, and the course I taught met in a building which overlooked the hay.

I discovered a very strange phenomenon: I could ask a question, which the students would answer immediately. But the next time I would ask the question - the same subject, and the same question, as far as I could tell - they couldn't answer it at all! For instance, one time I was talking about polarized light, and I gave them all some strips of polaroid.

Polaroid passes only light whose electric vector is in a certain direction, so I explained how you could tell which way the light is polarized from whether the polaroid is dark or light.

We first took two strips of polaroid and rotated them until they let the most light through. From doing that we could tell that the two strips were now admitting light polarized in the same direction - what passed through one piece of polaroid could also pass through the other. But then I asked them how one could tell the absolute direction of polarization, for a single piece of polaroid.

They hadn't any idea.

I knew this took a certain amount of ingenuity, so I gave them a hint: "Look at the light reflected from the bay outside."

Nobody said anything.

Then I said, "Have you ever heard of Brewster's Angle?"

"Yes, sir! Brewster's Angle is the angle at which light reflected from a medium with an index of refraction is completely polarized."

"And which way is the light polarized when it's reflected?"

"The light is polarized perpendicular to the plane of reflection, sir." Even now, I have to think about it; they knew it cold! They even knew the tangent of the angle equals the index!

I said, "Well?"

Still nothing. They had just told me that light reflected from a medium with an index, such as the bay outside, was polarized; they had even told me which way it was polarized.

I said, "Look at the bay outside, through the polaroid. Now turn the polaroid."

"Ooh, it's polarized!" they said.

After a lot of investigation, I finally figured out that the students had memorized everything, but they didn't know what anything meant. When they heard "light that is reflected from a medium with an index," they didn't know that it meant a material such as water. They didn't know that the "direction of the light" is the direction in which you see something when you're looking at it, and so on. Everything was entirely memorized, yet nothing had been translated into meaningful words. So if I asked, "What is Brewster's Angle?" I'm going into the computer with the right keywords. But if I say, "Look at the water," nothing happens - they don't have anything under "Look at the water"!

One Weird Trickism

https://southerncrossreview.org/81/feynman-brazil.html
 

Alex

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The problem with open-ended script interaction design that is supposed to clue you to be solved in rather than just be interacted as a CYOA is that you are not only trying to guess what the puzzle is but also what the designer intended. In other words, you are also solving designer intent. In an actual PNP you can negotiate with the DM, who can guess your intent or lay out a puzzle for you to clearly try to solve which is not possible in the pre-packaged experience of video games. While I also enjoy puzzles, even shit puzzles like the ones in WOTR, the result is that more people are frustrated because they are either not capable of the cognitive function to guess the developer intent or even begin to understand they have to. This is why so many people complain about puzzles in WOTR, because it doesn't make sense to them to think about what the dev intended.

Is guessing the developer's intention actually fun though?

Yes.

I don't think so, there is a reason I never liked those point and click adventure games.
(...)

If you did, maybe this point would be easier to explain. But the thing about adventure games is that it is not just guessing what the dev wanted. Not in the good ones, at least. But gathering it from clues and from the logic the game is presenting you. Here is a puzzle I really like to use as an example:

In the carnival location, you need to stop the ride midway to be able to talk to one of the game's characters. To do that, you will need a lantern so you can see the fuse box in the dark and a way to short-circuit it. That way, simple enough, is just to use max on the fuse box. While there isn't a "hint" per se that this is what you need to do, the answer (and the ensuing actions by the duo) fits perfectly with the cartoon logic of the game. It is a good puzzle because it makes sense in the context of the game, even if its answer would be stupid in a more serious story.

When you have a good use of clues and logic throughout the game, then finding these answers can be a lot of fun. Of course, it would be even better if you could come up with creative solutions to problems rather than finding what the developers intended, but that is not something that is really feasible with computers.

Edit: Sorry, left the spoiler unspoiled. Apologies to anyone who may have read it unintentionally.
 
Last edited:

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Is guessing the developer's intention actually fun though?

I don't think so, there is a reason I never liked those point and click adventure games.

At times the developer's idea of how to solve a problem will be very different from how you'd think it should be solved, you'll have to try a bunch of different solutions and eventually stumble on the one you're allowed to use through trial and error.

That's not a very fun or deep game, a lot of the time the overall experience would be improved by getting rid of it.

This comes from the early years of RPG/adventure gaming, where people bought few games and played them to death, where a typical autist would spend 10-20 hours to travel to all game locations to test combining several items together to unearth easter eggs or other bonus content. Who the hell would be so retarded today to wake up in the morning and said "today i will spent 6 hours after work to combine two items together in various ingame locations to find some easter egg" when you can just move on, play other game, and watch retardo/data miner on youtube who actually compiled all easter eggs in the game?. Not only this has nothing to do with overall game flow and story, it's literally a waste of time trying to do this, unless you don't value your time.
There's (probably, I'm not sure about this) a happy medium tho. It is analogous to teaching where the best teachers don't have an intention at all but focus on developing the capacity in students to solve problems on their own. Part of that is modeling the thought processes that go into that - including wrong ones - but we're all familiar with the bad teacher that turns the class into a game of "guess what I'm thinking." Just telling them what you're thinking is not the only alternative to that, in teaching or game development.

Good design in that context is including multiple ways to solve a problem with different outcomes, including poor ones that aren't fatal but might even unlock a narrative path that wouldn't be available via the better (in the eyes of the dev, or just "objectively") solutions.
 

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