Darkness in games

[JarlFrank]

Most games nowadays have lots of bloom and HDR and are generally very bright. Heck, even most older games aren't *really* dark. But darkness can add a lot to a game.

In Gothic 2, for example, nights were really quite dark. So dark that you'd need a torch to see your surroundings. Not only did it add to immersion, it also encouraged the player to return to the city and sleep till morning, and it encouraged the use of torches.

The Oblivion mod Nehrim has some dungeons that require a torch, too. One dungeon, in fact, is completely dark. If you don't have enough torches with you... have fun getting out of the pitch black dungeon when you run out of them. This dungeon was incredibly atmospheric since you couldn't see your enemies unless they were already close to you, and it added to the atmosphere of exploring an old place where no living being (it was filled with undead) resides anymore.

In Eschalon, dungeons were also so dark you had to use a torch to see anything, as were the nights.

I think darkness can add a lot to the atmosphere of dungeons (or of the wilderness at night). Many games have torches which are ultimately useless because you can see fine without them. Then there's also Thief, where darkness is obviously good for the player as the purpose of the game is not to be seen.

So what do you think? Is it good to have places in a game that are dark as fuck and require torches to find your way around, or do you prefer everything to be well-lit even in the deepest cave?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I'd prefer if places like Vault 15 would be dark as fuck and would need a light source.

 

[Serious_Business]

Thief is the one game that made darkness something that mattered, as you say. The rest is purely cosmetic and a question of "atmosphere".

I like the idea too, but yeah check out Fellout for NV, that shit got to some kind of ridiculous levels. You can't see shit at night with max brightness on. It's still realistic and makes the game look good but I don't know. I don't remember G2 to be that dark, been a while.

At some point the problem is one of convenience, the old realism vs fun debate. I'm kind of a faggot like you so I tend to think realism is fun, but then it can get tedious. As always, the solution is to strike a balance between the two. So I guess the light sources would need to be fairly common and not only light 2 meters in front of you, or that you'd be able to rest fairly easily. But yeah, I like the idea, but then a game like, say, SS2 didn't need it even though it was built around the dark engine. Think it would have added something if you didn't see shit and needed a flashlight lest the psycho monkeys jumped at you every two corners? Not sure. Doom 3 was the game that made darkness a gimick, and see how well that went

 

[torpid]

If a game includes torches then they should be useful. Oblivion had torches but there was never any need for them, so you ended up with a few dozen torches in your inventory that never saw any action.

 

[Excommunicator]

Huge fan of proper darkness in games, but have never been a fan of torches in games. They are irritating, meaningless and never make enough light when they are in the game. Also exhaustible torches, requiring you to carry a whole bunch at a time? What a stupid idea. Think about it, you are trying to implement an extremely inconvenient form of realism that doesn't contribute enjoyment to the game, at the cost of less realism by making the character carry more torches in their pack than could realistically fit in there in the first place. Simple minded implementation.
You want to put a limit on the torches, then slowly reduce the amount of light they produce over time (never going out completely, unless e.g. they get wet), and then allow the player to replenish the torch with cloth, fuel etc if they want to carry those things.

Developers typically don't understand how much light is produced by even a small light source in a dark place. A torch in a cave or forest at night would light up a very large area around you, even if only with just enough light to see, but that is the point. Games typically go the route of a tiny light radius around the character making the game all the more tedious.

The game that has best reached at least tolerable practicality for me was Ultima 7, and while darkness itself was still tolerable, having a torch/light source gave a nice warm glow over the entire screen, not just in a small radius (I would have supported line of sight-based darkness too, but that obviously wasn't put in). Also, you had the choice of whether to put them in your offhand and use a weapon in your main hand, or put them in your main hand and use them AS your weapon, where they would do the same damage as a normal sword. Worked for me.

 

[Deneidez]

Total darkness should be pitch black and it should affect all beings. Current way to do darkness is nothing but atmospheric and it looks like a shit when there is nothing whitewashed crap everywhere.

I think its all because games must be more casual and easy. Its not that hard to do. I have done it too. ->
http://cs.joensuu.fi/~ppakar/seka/neonS ... esting.jpg
(Yeah, its my engine. That picture is from older build with dynamic pitch black shadows with self shadowing etc.)

 

[Baron]

[his bitter anti-torch harangue]

I disagree, I think exhaustible torches particularly offer a great mechanic for suspense and challenge, either in dungeon bases or wilderness at night.
1) Firstly you have to drop your shield (or main gauche for same sex attracted adventurers). A glowing helmet becomes highly prized.
2) Slowly fading light or light extinguished due to wind or water is great for tension, and terrifying if already engaged in melee. A thief monster (Din's Curse) could steal from backpack meaning an equipped party suddenly finds themselves making a panicked retreat to the exit or face being swarmed underground by its denizens.
3) Gas... if you introduced a potential risk of explosion from carrying a naked flame you could force a player to invest in an expensive glowing gem instead of a sharper blade. Would require some visual clue or skill check prior to explosion.
4) Strategy; certain monsters that are either drawn to the light, or are terrified of it (either the light itself or only to naked flame). A resourceful thief with a torch could keep a wight at bay whereas a barbarian with an axe might be killed.
5) Setting fire to others. Is there anything better in the fantasy world than an immolated troll thrashing and flailing its way through your ranks in its tormented final moments?

I love pitch black silent dungeons, and I wish torches and light sources were better implemented in games as they are a superb mechanic that is rarely utilised.

 

[Phelot]

I believe darkness ties into horror in that if you're not going to get immersed into a game and "forget" you're playing then it's probably gonna be more of an inconvenience then anything and ultimately be useless.

Personally, I love dark games. Whether it be Ultima 6 or Penumbra, it adds a lot for me. It was one of the few things I liked about Doom 3, despite the whole flashlight controversy...

Darkness also gives a purpose to things like torches in games which often times has little to no use since in newer games since it's so bright anyway. It would also give a purpose to things like night vision, should the setting allow it.

This is what I missed about old games. Using some of the ports, Hexen has become even cooler since I can lower the brightness and contrast so much.

 

[zenbitz]

It's (at best) implemented like radiation in FO. There is some place that's too dark to play in. There are some NPCs who tell you this. You gather 75 torches or flares or whatever. You can now enter and clear the dark space.

It's really no different than a locked door. Which is what it is. I guess it could be done tastefully.

In order for darkness to MATTER then light sources would have to be RARE and VALUABLE.

Also it would be pretty funny if it was really hard to fight HTH while holding a torch... but then it would be pretty funny to see an RPG where what was in your hands/draped all over you back mattered.

 

[Excommunicator]

[his bitter anti-torch harangue]

I disagree, I think exhaustible torches particularly offer a great mechanic for suspense and challenge, either in dungeon bases or wilderness at night.
1) Firstly you have to drop your shield (or main gauche for same sex attracted adventurers). A glowing helmet becomes highly prized.
2) Slowly fading light or light extinguished due to wind or water is great for tension, and terrifying if already engaged in melee. A thief monster (Din's Curse) could steal from backpack meaning an equipped party suddenly finds themselves making a panicked retreat to the exit or face being swarmed underground by its denizens.
3) Gas... if you introduced a potential risk of explosion from carrying a naked flame you could force a player to invest in an expensive glowing gem instead of a sharper blade. Would require some visual clue or skill check prior to explosion.
4) Strategy; certain monsters that are either drawn to the light, or are terrified of it (either the light itself or only to naked flame). A resourceful thief with a torch could keep a wight at bay whereas a barbarian with an axe might be killed.
5) Setting fire to others. Is there anything better in the fantasy world than an immolated troll thrashing and flailing its way through your ranks in its tormented final moments?

I love pitch black silent dungeons, and I wish torches and light sources were better implemented in games as they are a superb mechanic that is rarely utilised.

Maybe I was a bit too bitter sounding then, because the point I was making was not that I am against torches, but that I am against torches as they have been implemented in games past. I would certainly not suggest the idea of abandoning them completely, but I would support games ditching the idea if they do not put the time and effort into them to make them a worthwhile mechanic, and most (all I know of) games certainly fail. I agree with all of those ideas, and would love to see them, but I just haven't.

I personally think there is excellent potential for added layers or interactivity and entertainment in the idea of having your own source of portable light and heat. The potential is endless. It starts with real darkness though.

 

[Phelot]

This topic reminded me of Pathways into Darkness (LOL RELEVANT TITLE)

There's a section that has these swarms of rats that are attracted to your flashlight. Only way to figure that out short of trying to turn it off, is to talk to one of the dead Nazi soldiers who was killed by them.

Pretty cool gimmick and it IS a lot tougher to move about in the dark, though you can still see a bit.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Operation Flashpoint - under starry night you can make something out if it's close enough but NVG are really, really useful. That's a good balance. Tracers reveal the location of their shooter as does muzzle-flashes.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I do not recall being hindered by the darkness in Gothic 2, but I sure was in Risen. If it was night and cloudy, I wasn't going anywhere without a light source. I actually tried that once and while I could find my way around, I actually bumped into an enemy and got killed quickly.

The original Thief is actually darker than Thief 2, somewhat due to engine workings. A handful of Thief Gold FMs cash in on this and create some really dark places, while a Thief 2 FM called Mine Affairs has you scrambling to reach the surface in a pitch black mine. One of a handful of times where a flare comes in handy.

One really retarded implementation of darkness was in the old Platoon game. The third level has you sitting in a bunker shooting VC troops with a box of flares to help you light up the jungle so you could see them. It didn't take me long to learn to see them without using the flares, so I was sitting there in the dark shooting VC for a VERY long time. The level never seemed to end. Eventually I quit trying, thinking that the game was bugged. But no. Turns out that in order to complete the level, you MUST use up all the flares. Only then will the game progress.

I can remember other games that used darkness pretty well, but most of them are decades old, and the topic was about how modern games with modern tech fail to use darkness properly, so I'll shut up now.

 

[Kosmonaut]

Heh. I love how this thread mutated from "properly done darkness in games" to "expanded torch/light sources" mechanics.

Now, with respect of darkness in game, I think that it should be more than just an ambient/immersion pretext, and become a integral interaction mechanism, with more gameplay options and consequences. In some games the perceived dangers of the night/darkness are not well fleshed out. It should be really dangerous to be outside at night or inside a dark cave.

In some places it's really cold at night. So maybe this could be translated into some kind of stat penalty, just like the perception (or similar stat) should be affected.

And some predators are nocturnal creatures. If the game is in some fantasy setting, maybe a powerful enemy could come only at night. I know that this has been done before, but it should be more prominent.

Also, as it was already mentioned by somebody in this thread, using some kind of light source like torches or magic light, should attract unwanted company, like robbers, monsters, etc.

In short, I think that darkness should have more influence in the exploration/character mechanics, not just a "I don't see shit, Batman" gimmick.

 

[JarlFrank]

And some predators are nocturnal creatures. If the game is in some fantasy setting, maybe a powerful enemy could come only at night. I know that this has been done before, but it should be more prominent.

The new Dwarf Fortress version spawns bogeymen when you're out alone at night (they don't appear if you have a party though) and holy fuck those guys can fuck up even the strongest character if you don't take care.

 

[7hm]

Not an RPG, but Minecraft does a fantastic job with darkness.

The older games (turn based) generally did an ok job with darkness though really it became a binary choice - you either had a light source and were ok, or you were fucked.

 

[Kosmonaut]

Darkness should actually give you some bonuses too, for balances sake. Besides the obvious motifs (bonuses to hiding, stealth mode, etc.), maybe some bonus to nocturnal species/races that can be selected, or maybe some element that only appears in dark places (some flowers only blossom at night, a mythical creature, etc).

Also, some school of magic or spell that increase its power and reach at night, or in dark places like caves. There are a lot of options.

I think that darkness has been, as a whole, an underused element in RPGs.

 

[zenbitz]

Oh, I forgot the best implementation:

"You are likely to be eaten by a Grue".

 

[Crooked Bee]

Oh, I forgot the best implementation:

"You are likely to be eaten by a Grue".

Wonderful.

 

[someone else]

Reviewers will just complain the game is too dark even with torches and give lower scores so less people will buy the game.

 

[Shemar]

It all depends on how it is done and how extensively it is done. I played some NWN2 mods that used realistic lighting where either the use of torches and magical light sources or the use of racial vision enhancement was necessary. Overall I liked the experience and it added to the atmosphere but I am not sure I would want to play a full game like that. If a game includes the occasional non-lit or dimply lit location and has a good lighting/shadow engine I am all for it. But if a game is played in its entirety in the dark, I imagine it would get pretty frustrating.