c.s.i.p.rpg fun with NWN excusists

[Spazmo]

I really think Saint should do an interview with BioWare. It'd be the best interview EVAR!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I really think Saint should do an interview with BioWare. It'd be the best interview EVAR!

I think they should interview me.

 

[Storn]

Not an apologist, but ..

Hey folks,

I've been a lurker here for quite some time and decided (at probably great risk) to jump in on this thread.

First a little background on myself (for those who are interested). I'm 30 yrs old, and I've been playing CRPG's since the early-mid 80's, with some of my fondest memories coming from an old SSI game called Wizard's Crown, followed by - of course - the famous Pool of Radiance and succeeding Gold Box games. My favorite CRPG is probably Fallout. I detest 'twitch' games (have never even played Diablo), and have been a long-time turn-based fan - while I am gradually accepting the transition of RPG games to real-time, I admit I've gone kicking and screaming.

Now, that out of the way, my comment on NwN: I have a regular group of on-line friends with whom I have been gaming for nearly 10 years (interestingly, none of us has ever met in person over that time, but I digress). We all agreed to buy NwN and try it out so we can get some good on-line D&D games - up until then, we played D&D using WebRPG and OpenRPG, which was an adequte forum, it just took an extremely long time to resolve combat ..

Anyways - all of the people in my group, myself included, are hard-core RPG purists. A week after NwN was released, three of the group nearly returned it. I almost returned it myself, but I decided to play around with the Toolset and see how that turned out. I've been an avid world-builder ever since Starcraft released their construction kit, and for me the creation of worlds is more fun than playing in them. That is where I think NwN succeeds for us. I don't mind spending hours building worlds, scripting, making dialogues, creating creatures etc ... in fact I enjoy it.

I have been running my NwN campaign since July of last year, and we have kept the entire group together throughout - it's a roleplaying-heavy campaign and we all are just having a blast - but we have the ideal group: all spectacular roleplayer PC's with a skilled world-builder/DM (me). We've all tried other things outside of my campaign - public persistent worlds, pick-up games with random downloaded mods, team vs team ... and the concensus is that NwN is just not that much fun outside of our small group's weekly roleplaying campaign.

So ... to sort of recap this long, rambling post. NwN can indeed be a fun game if you manage to connect with the right people. The biggest hurdle is finding a DM/world builder who is willing to dedicate a lot of time to bulding & scripting - I can certainly sympathize with those of you have a bitter taste in your mouth over NwN, and I don't expect to sway the opinion of those who are downright hostile towards it ... but, you can have some terrific roleplaying experiences with NwN. You just have to find the right people.

Just my 3.2 copper!


Storn

 

[Rosh]

I'm glad you have had some fun with the game, Storn, but it's rather a problem for those who aren't in the same situation. Personally, I have gotten tired of the same rehashed high fantasy setting, and quite frankly with what I and a couple of friends are doing in a MUD codebase do surpass NWN in many ways. Sure, it's text-based, but there's a lot more involved to it and possible than NWN mainly because you're essentially forced to two things in NWN unless you use one of their stupid modes or develop much more than you should around bugs and other problems BioWare might cause problems with (check out the link in my sig about the CD issue). Speech or wandering (combat, sneaking, etc.). There is nothing macro-environment to BioWare's games, mainly because they haven't evolved that far as a developer. Frankly, with NWN, you'd probably spend less time by having an imagination and using IRC or some other means.

Plus, I take solace in the fact that my races are unique RACES, not just skins and modifiers. Damn, I want to go into more, but I'm just not ready to release more info on it before it's finalized in design and mostly coded. This is my somewhat high fantasy MUD (though very different than Diku/MERC/Circle/Smaug bases), I still have yet to do some work on my wasteland setting designs, futuristic space battle one, and a couple of other ideas I have floating around.

 

[Storn]

Hey Rosh,

As I mentioned, I certainly sympathize with those who haven't had the same experience as my group has - the more I read about NwN, the more I get the feeling that ours is the exception, instead of the rule.

I think I view NwN with something of a more optimistic outlook - my hope is that others will decide to do something similar and design more toolsets for the players to use to build worlds. NWN sort of broke new ground in that department - as difiicult as the Aurora Toolset/scripting is for beginners, it's actually much easier than a lot of other builders out there. I would love to get my hands on, for example, a Fallout construction kit, or a Star Wars, or Deadlands construction kit, etc. Leaving the creativity to the players and providing us with the tools to make campaigns is, in my opinion, the best way (or at least one of the best ways) to keep the CRPG genre flourishing.

I agree with you, though - I'm tired of the high-fantasy, Forgotten Realms-ish games. It's become a bit cliche' to me (which, incidentally, is why I run a non-stereotypical, extremely-low-magic world). I'd also love to see a sci-fi RPG, like the Buck Rodgers Countdown to Doomsday game that came out in the 80's (I think), and I'd like to see a Fallout 3 (and 4,5,6 ..). I'm optimisitc about Knights of the Old Republic, as I hope that - at the very least - it may open the door for more science fiction CRPG's.

Then again, that's just my opinion ... perhaps I'm just being too optimistic



Storn

 

[Rosh]

The problem with Buildware games like NWN is that they almost always come with some crappy single-player experience, and what you end up with is a load of crap more often than anything good. They are good in theory, but not good on a whole.

In theory, these games:
1. Allow anyone with ideas to develop them out for other people.
2. Allows a LOT more replay for the game, as you have a lot more developers to provide content, which could result in a massive amount of new content.
3. Give people practice developing and give them a taste of designing.
4. Give them a foot in the door to join the industry.
5. Give an alternative to P&P play.


Back in reality, the following happens:
1. There's thousands more in crap than there is good.
2. People will rarely go through a lot of half-developed modules and try the "number one" module, which is the site's or owner's module, and not many else after the supposed "good" ones are crap. The developers of other games have perhaps less time to go looking to see what things people have done, or even the people who made the buildware game don't have time to check them all out and there might be some hidden gem out there.
3. People don't like criticism and think their design is the best/perfect. Therefore, they never improve or change.
4. Since of the above, they almost never do get anywhere, or it might be rare circumstances.
5. Any tools outside of supplementing to a P&P environment are and will usually be very limited, leading to a very limited play experience compared to P&P or P&P-IRC environments.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I'm optimisitc about Knights of the Old Republic, as I hope that - at the very least - it may open the door for more science fiction CRPG's.

I'd be more interested in KotOR if BioWare hadn't already said there would be magic items in it. Apparently, 4000 years before the movies, there was ph4t l3wt.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Apparently, 4000 years before the movies, there was ph4t l3wt.

Yes, it was. In fact it was the ph4t l3wt that started the corruption among the Jedi.

 

[Psilon]

No, it was the invention of lightsaber customization! All the Jedi apprentices started slacking off and building neon lights, rumble features, color-changing blades, and whatnot into their lightsabers. When the Sith arrived and started fighting them, the uber-lightsabers shorted out and broke. Too much current for the breaker, I guess.

 

[Rosh]

You know what the funniest thing about this is?

Star Wars Galaxies has it right, in that a Jedi will be more comfortable and proficient with the lightsabers that the Jedi themself create and build. So why will a Jedi just drop the one they made over a lightsaber they just pick up?

Way to go with fucking something else up, BioWare. Congratulations for being such utter morons. It will now be a miracle when you don't fuck something up. Oh, wait...that's already happening.

Now if they do have it somewhat good or right, then good for them (it will be a miracle), but I seriously doubt they have it right.

 

[Section8]

The development team, a group of exceptionally creative, smart people -
has done an amazing job

Reminds me of Something about Mary - "Exceptional my ass!"

The scary fact is that compared to the marketing monkeys that wrote the release, the devs probably are exceptionally creative and smart.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

No, actually, I think that was written by the CEO, since he basically says the same thing over and over again every chance he gets, be they interview or press release. I'm kind of surprised the title of the NWN page isn't, WE DONE GOOD or something similar, despite the number of complaints a lot of people have about how awful NWN's campaign is.

 

[Volourn]

I never bought into those exuses. Whether you like NWN; or not; there is no doubt BIO intended the OC to be as good as possible. Any who say otherwise really need to look at the facts as evidenced by SP's link. Not to mention; other pieces of evidence as well.

 

[Azael]

I never bought into those exuses. Whether you like NWN; or not; there is no doubt BIO intended the OC to be as good as possible. Any who say otherwise really need to look at the facts as evidenced by SP's link. Not to mention; other pieces of evidence as well.

Wow Volourn, are you complaining about NWN? :shock:

 

[Volourn]

Um.. No. I'm complaining about NWN fans who say that the OC is just something BIO "threw in as an extra".

Heh. Perhaps you should read that again..

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I never bought into those exuses. Whether you like NWN; or not; there is no doubt BIO intended the OC to be as good as possible. Any who say otherwise really need to look at the facts as evidenced by SP's link. Not to mention; other pieces of evidence as well.

They're still hyping the campaign in KotOR interviews, which I find fairly amusing. You'd think they'd be smart enough, since they proclaim themselves as smart and creative people, to take a page from Mirage. Mirage made Another War, and they have a page devoted to the pros and cons of their game, which is actually dead on the mark.

They basically show they know the problems with their lasst title, which means their next title will most likely address the bad things.

 

[Volourn]

Well... Star Wars is not really my thing so I ahven't really paid much attanetion to it. I'll be waiting until the price is lowered before I purchase it.

 

[Sabotai]

It's funny to see Bioware pulling some new tricks with the marketing strategy of Shadows of Undretide. A different kind of hyping.

Ever since NWN came out a lot of people have been whining about introducing prestige classes. Then they promise to include two, one of which a Harper Scout who nobody wants to play. And just before the release they -surprise, surprise- say that they include 5 presitge classes.

It's like they hired a psychologist and said: "Customers won't fall for the overhyping trick again, what can we do?". Psychologist: "Well first you promise something you know the customers won't like and bitch about and just before the game is released you promise them some extras they really want and make it look like you listened to their complaints. They will love you and will blindy buy your most shitty game".

I have a really hard time believing that originally they really intended to include only two prestige classes, one a Harper Scout. They sure as hell would know the reaction to that of even the most hardcore fans to only two PCs: "What no K3wl fighter prestige classes or assassins. The harper scoout sucks". To me it seems that they intended to include 5 classes all along but decided to play it this way as a new marketing tool. Call me paranoid.

 

[Volourn]

Heh. Good point. I'm surprised no one has called them liars for promising two PrC; yet dleivering five. Bunch of lairs! Hehe. Just kidding there..

 

[Rosh]

Heh. Good point. I'm surprised no one has called them liars for promising two PrC; yet dleivering five. .

Sabotai just did so. It's just another sleazy trick Bioware needs to use in order to get the attention. It's the old bait and switch, but it makes people expect the bad but get something comparatively good, fooling the blatantly stupid into thinking Bioware was doing better than they previously claimed.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

It's up to five now? I remember when it was upped to three.

As far as prestige classes go, it's not surprising they're dangling those as enticements given how the stock their games with ubermagic items and money.

 

[Psilon]

Well, yes. I'm in Chapter 2 (well, the finale module, because I gave up on the sidequests), and I've got over 150,000 GP. Beggars ask me for 10 gold, or I spend 200 on Mutamin's entry fee. Yet I find Greater Restoration scrolls in bookcases and over 35 GP worth of treasure in barrels!

It's funny. I figured I'd try it again last night just for kicks and I was bored out of my skull within 30 minutes. One level 12 wizard can just waltz through this game. Every encounter (read: forty paces), I follow this formula:

• Empty cache of fireballs, acid arrows, and magic missiles at attacking horde.
• Wait for monk to die.
• If enemies remain, use Stone of Recall.
• Rest and reacquire moron henchman.
• Repeat until victorious. If killed, quickload and retry.

On a different note, Bioware comic relief is incredibly lame. Every developer makes references to previous games in later ones, but the best they could do in NWN was put a Jan Jansen relative in a brothel? My tolerance for Jansen humor ran dry by the end of BG2. The only thing he said in ToB worthy of a grin was his crack about "hormonally imbalanced bunnies" regarding Aerie's mating habits. I suppose it could have been worse. Think "Nevernoober Nights."

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well, yes. I'm in Chapter 2 (well, the finale module, because I gave up on the sidequests), and I've got over 150,000 GP. Beggars ask me for 10 gold, or I spend 200 on Mutamin's entry fee. Yet I find Greater Restoration scrolls in bookcases and over 35 GP worth of treasure in barrels!

That whole design towns like they were dungeons thing got to me as well. You expect to find little caches of loot in a dungeon because the critters and adventurers squirrell things away in there. In towns, you should at least be expected to enter a house to pick through the loot.

 

[Psilon]

Which is easy since you can bust into a manor house, insult the noblewoman occupant and her bodyguards, then break open every piece of furniture in the place without consequence. At least BG/BG2 would send guards to bust ass if you got caught doing crimes that blatantly.