Alpha Protocol, Or How Video Killed the Radio Star

[Clockwork Knight]

Because when choosing to level up my skill in an RPG I want to risk it being useless. Right.

Yeah, that's why there should also be auto-hitting because we can't risk having a critical miss while firing a heavy lazor, when I just raised energy weapons from 1% to 5%. That would make it useless after leveling up!

I don't think it's the same thing, combat involves modifiers like dexterity, strength, defense, etc that allow for randomness; in dialogue you have determined options but whether the npc believes you or not depends on the computer's mood, turning what should be a challenge (of choosing the answer that better suits your intention) into a slot machine. Not fun or logical at all

You see it as a "risk", I see it as "will or will not the schizo computer fuck me over for acting in the same manner as last time, when I got a reward"

Stop with this "cutscene, not dialogue" shit. Cutscenes don't involve choosing dialogue options. You're not sounding oldskool, you're just showing short attention span.

"Oh the screen doesn't freeze while we exchange words, must be a cutscene, even though the player takes part in the conversation"

Butthurt detected.

They no more cutscenes than Witcher's combat is QTE. But you can see how they got the comparisons, no? I mean the fucking time in AP goes out before your dialog partner finishes what he has to say. I don't know, but in real-life I wait for him before saying something myself. It's not only polite, but also useful to find out what the fuck he actually wants to say.

1 - Short time to answer doesn't happen all the time, stop parroting skyway. And in any case, my mouse was lagging and I still had time to read AND choose the option I wanted. Sorry if it's too hard for the codex geniuses.

2- I don't care about what the codex's fucked up definition of "dialogue" may be, conversation where you take part on = dialogue. conversation where you dont take part on = cutscene.

Dialogue.

Dialogue.

Feel free to criticize the form and quality, but don't make shit up.

3- "In real life I" arguments are retarded when talking about rpgs. And in any case, you just choose the option, Thorton doesn't start speaking until the other guy finishes his sentence (unless the option involves interrupting him, obv.)

Btw: In real life people usually start talking right after the other person stops, so I guess all those rpgs that let you stare at the screen for hours until you decide which answer to pick are retarded, b/cuz there totlly unliek real lief

There are no skill checks in the dialogue in this game. It either gives you the line, or it doesn't - but if it does, your chance of success is 100%.

Yes, only during some dialogue instances, but otherwise they behaved normally, unlike AP that has none of that.

*irrelevant shit about climbing and headshots*

stop flipflopping around, if you wanna talk about dialogue checks, then stick to dialogue checks.

AP has dialogue checks. Fail or Sucess, against your skill. If you are below the requirement, you don't get the option. Whether you think it's a "proper skill check" (read: the type you like most) is totally fucking irrelevant to your original point.

FFS

 

[denizsi]

FFS

QFT

 

[Micmu]

The most idiotic "dialogue" I ever saw and obnoxiuos minigames were the main reason I aborted and uninstalled AP at 4th hr of gameplay.
Also, absolutely no signs of it being even *partially* an RPG so what the fuck.
Total. Popamole.

But at least now I know where the "Codex" stands nowadays.

 

[denizsi]

Moran.

 

[hoochimama]

Batman AA a mediocre and/or shitty game?

Where would we be without one-man authorities on what games are good or not, declaring batman to be a shit game even though both mainstream media and the majority of the codex loved it, while simultaneously declaring AP to be a good game after only playing two missions.

AP got crushed in reviews and half the codex doesn't even think it's worth buying. So you liked it, big deal, that's not enough to make it a good game, it's not enough to make it "good for what it is" either when it's supposed to be a mainstream console rpg and yet the mainstream hates it and only half of the church of Avellone likes it.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Also, absolutely no signs of it being even *partially* an RPG so what the fuck.

If only you provided reasons for thinking that

But at least now I know where the "Codex" stands nowadays.

The codex was always shit, unless the eventual necroed threads I read totally don't count

 

[Roguey]

Wait, what? You're comparing a relatively shitty action game with zero-input combat (basically) with an action rpg where combat is mostly cover-based gunfiring, and stealth mechanics more complex? Even if Arkham Asylum was great, which it isn't (though I admit the atmosphere is good), the comparison would be retarded, even if the Batman game has some degree of stealth. HEY GUYS I REALLY LIKE MEGAMAN 2 HOW DOES AP COMPARE TO THAT GAME?

AP isn't a RPG, even Mistah Good-For-What-It-Is said so on his forum ("First, it's not a role-playing game. This much should be clear to any imbecile. Yes, it has choices and consequences, but this feature alone doesn't make a game an RPG."). I barely used guns and cover on my first playthrough, I used silent takedowns and martial arts and AP's "mash E repeatedly" melee is definitely even below AA's QTE-like combat. If you think AP's stealth mechanics are more complex, you're being willfully blind.

They're both action games with stealth and experience points on Unreal Engine 3, so the comparison is appropriate. More choices and skills aren't an excuse for bad design. See:

At that pivotal moment the design for Oblivion Alpha Protocol was born: an action game for casual gamers sold as an RPG! Brilliant! Why brilliant? Well, any complaints about the action elements would be met with "It's an RPG! Duh!", while any complaints about the RPG elements would be met with "It's not your grandpa's RPG with die rolls and skill checks. It's an action game! For next generation! Duh!"

 

[Radisshu]

^
LOL YES, a completely linear action platformer with stealth elements is comparable to a game that is different on most levels, except it's got stealth too and uses the same engine. NO WAIT IT'S GOT LEVULZ, SORT OF!!! u r geniuz

And I don't care with VD says, AP is an action RPG.

Where would we be without one-man authorities on what games are good or not, declaring batman to be a shit game even though both mainstream media and the majority of the codex loved it, while simultaneously declaring AP to be a good game after only playing two missions.

I've played through AP twice, Batman once. And the Batman game is good for a Batman game, and is probably the best Batman game ever, but it's still mediocre, or just slightly above average. I don't care what anyone says, the "stealth" in AA makes AP's stealth seem sophisticated (jump between gargoyles and enemies will lose track of you automatically!).

What makes it DECENT is pretty much the atmosphere. If you like Batman, you'll probably like that Batman game. But it's still a simplified license game, it's about you running around kicking ass, there's no depth to the gameplay.

EDIT: I hope I'm not the only one who thinks the Arkham Asylum-Alpha Protocol comparison is completely retarded.

 

[denizsi]

You are not, honey, and why aren't you returning my PMs?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Short time to answer doesn't happen all the time, stop parroting skyway.

Not parroting anybody, I've seen it videos. Each time the timer ended before the conversation partner stopped speaking. So you say it doesn't happen all the time... but when it does, why does that happen? Is there any reason or just for the LULZ?

And I hope you realize the real-life comparison was sarcastic, but it kinda makes sense to know to what the fuck you're responding, no? But well, since in AP you don't actually answer but choose stances instead maybe it's not so important, I'll give you that.

Also, butthurt detected.

 

[Phelot]

I prefer the old dialogue box or screen with a nice portrait, or even if it doesn't have one, that's fine. Bonus points if body language or appearance is described. It's a lot more believable since it's given that a certain bit of imagination on the reader's part is needed.

If it's fully voiced and the NPC's "act" then it must be judged on it's merits and so far most games fail VERY hard. And in the end, I think it's a waste of resources and time trying to make dialogue believable when the tried and true dialogue box does it just fine.

But I'm sure they'll keep on and maybe even get good at it.

The whole timed dialogue with AP doesn't sound like something I'd like, but it also sounds like it helps keep up the flow of dialogue by preventing awkward pauses while the player figures out what to say. At the same time, it limits the number of responses a player can give as well as not showing exactly what the player will say. But that can be good since it opens up the PC to being interrupted in dialogue without it showing in the PC choice of response.

Still, I haven't played AP and don't plan to simply because I have no interest in the setting. Maybe some day though

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Not parroting anybody, I've seen it videos. Each time the timer ended before the conversation partner stopped speaking. So you say it doesn't happen all the time... but when it does, why does that happen? Is there any reason or just for the LULZ?

Eh, no, it's a flaw, really. But it's not FUKKIN IMOPOSSIBEL!@!2!! like some people say.

And I hope you realize the real-life comparison was sarcastic, but it kinda makes sense to know to what the fuck you're responding, no? But well, since in AP you don't actually answer but choose stances instead maybe it's not so important, I'll give you that.

Again, you can glance over the options while you listen/read to the conversation, it's really not hard as long as you're able to walk and chew gum at the same time (unless they decide to give you a really short time to choose).

Also, butthurt detected.

stfu faget

 

[denizsi]

It's a lovely sight when Codexers are defending game features in an RPG, that are 100% player skill, as "not that hard", as if that's the point or much less as if there's an absolute universal definition for what is is not "not that hard". Goddamn maggots.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The point is that reading and listening at the same time isn't hard for a normal person, no one said that it's very rpg-like and player skill or whatever

try following the conversation next time, does wonders

 

[Mangoose]

Not parroting anybody, I've seen it videos. Each time the timer ended before the conversation partner stopped speaking. So you say it doesn't happen all the time... but when it does, why does that happen? Is there any reason or just for the LULZ?

When the timer ends quickly usually it's because it's just minor dialogue and Obsidian tried to make it seem like "movie-style" banter. But when it comes to the major decisions you usually do get a window of time to think about your answer after your partner has stopped speaking.

It really doesn't affect gameplay that much. The only time I appreciated it was when you have a very important reason for answering quickly (like a bomb about to go off) and thus having a timer really added to the atmosphere.

Radisshu: Did you play AA on Normal difficulty or Hard? I've definitely been noticed while jumping between gargoyles and been shot at while I've been on top of one. But I played Hard mode because Normal made the henchmen ridiculously easy.

 

[Azarkon]

Roll-a-dice skill checks for important decisions have always been retarded. People DO just reload that shit, because no one wants to put two dozen points into Persuade and then fail important conversations anyway because they rolled a 1.

Jesus fucking Christ. That Felix guy just deleted a post like this and I sighed in relief, "the Codex can't sink that low, that excuse only shows up in the TESF/BioWare forums", but here you go, proving me wrong.

I won't answer at how stupid this is. First of all, it kills that sense of risk you get when picking an option. Second, by being an arbitrary Yes/No binary you kill all chances of a progressive outcome (Critical Failure/Failure/No penalty/Success/Critical Success), indicating how skilled your character really is. Third, it lessens the degree of randomness which is the core of every proper RPG out there, games of chance by excellence.

You, sir, fail. Please go here or here, places that are more appropriate to your intellectual capacity, but do not prolong your stay in the Codex contributing to its already alarming decline.

Sense of risk: (rolls 20) Excellent; (rolls 1) Game->Reload

Progressive outcome: Because we all know you need RANDOMNESS to have a spectrum of outcomes, as opposed to just:

If Skill - Check >= 20: Critical Success
Else If Skill - Check >= 10: Success
Else If Skill - Check >= 0: No Penalty
Else If Skill - Check >= -10: Failure
Else: Critical Failure

Randomness is at the core of proper RPGs: aka "I don't know what the shit I'm talking about so I'm just going to say it's GOOD BY DEFINITION"

Honestly, with the failed logic you pulled in that Aesthetics vs. Mechanics debate, I'm surprised you're still acting like you're an expert, or that you speak for anyone on the Codex except for yourself, skyway, and maybe FSM. If you can't figure out why it is that dice rolling for important decisions in CRPGs is retarded, I suggest you actually play a game where you invest half of your character points into a skill in preparation for a certain outcome, only to get fucked over at the most critical time by a dice roll.

And kid, before you pull out the newfag card, recognize that I was here when you were still sucking on skyway's teets.

 

[Azarkon]

To expand what I said above, the ONLY reason for having randomness in important decisions should be to smooth out the skill->outcome curve in games where 1) there is no reload option and 2) there are far more skill point ranks than discrete outcomes, which to me suggests design failure in the first place. It doesn't even make sense that you could fail a conversation check by "random chance." At least with combat, you can imagine the enemy dodging unexpectedly and that's why your axe fails to do maximum damage. In conversations where every single word is spelled out for you by the game, it's against expectations to fail a dialogue randomly. What, you just happen to have forgotten how to say the right thing 50% of the times? What, the other guy just happens to buy your argument 50% of the times, and refuses to buy the same argument the other 50% of the times?

Use some common sense.

 

[Helton]

Dude I don't know what you said but fuck you PST is the best RPG there is.

 

[Roguey]

^
LOL YES, a completely linear action platformer with stealth elements is comparable to a game that is different on most levels, except it's got stealth too and uses the same engine. NO WAIT IT'S GOT LEVULZ, SORT OF!!! u r geniuz

How is AP not linear? You can choose your missions in any order, sure, but the levels themselves are totally linear with some minor changes here and there depending on your choices.

And I don't care with VD says, AP is an action RPG.

Where does action-adventure with RPG elements end and action-RPG begin? I draw the line when I'm the one who has to aim and dodge because that means I'm using my skills and not the character's. Keeps things simple.

I've played through AP twice, Batman once. And the Batman game is good for a Batman game, and is probably the best Batman game ever, but it's still mediocre, or just slightly above average.

Shoulda read my post more thoroughly, I never said it wasn't mediocre. People were saying "You can't compare AP to the best dedicated stealth games" and I'm like "Well it doesn't even hold up to a recent mediocre multiple-hat-wearing stealth game." I believe that what you spend the most time doing in a game is what that game should do well, and ~95% of Alpha Protocol's gameplay is fighting/sneaking through hostile territory so it can be rightly compared to any other game that focuses on fighting/sneaking. This wouldn't be a problem if ~95% of its gameplay was making choices and observing the consequences.

I don't care what anyone says, the "stealth" in AA makes AP's stealth seem sophisticated (jump between gargoyles and enemies will lose track of you automatically!).

Confirmed for normal difficulty. You can't do that at all on Hard, the enemy AI actually improves. I agree its stealth feels contrived and gimmicky, but Alpha Protocol's enemies are just that much more braindead.

 

[Felix]

Jesus fucking Christ. That Felix guy just deleted a post like this and I sighed in relief, "the Codex can't sink that low, that excuse only shows up in the TESF/BioWare forums", but here you go, proving me wrong.

I deleted my post, so what, that was because I think it was not worth it not because I care about what you or anyone else think or how your little butt hurt.

 

[SuicideBunny]

How is AP not linear? You can choose your missions in any order, sure, but the levels themselves are totally linear with some minor changes here and there depending on your choices.

you can play the hubs in any order, as well as most of the missions, and the order affects mission availability and comments from npcs. that is pretty much the definition of non-trivial non-linearity.

the missions are linear, and they suck because of that, the segmentation and the cutting off bullshit, but that doesn't mean the game is. at the bottom of non-linearity are always linear quants, it's the overarching structure that matters.