Interview Jeff Vogel interview at E-Boredom

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Jeff Vogel; Spiderweb Software

<a href=http://eboredom.20m.com>E-Boredom</a> has posted a brief <a href=http://eboredom.20m.com/features/interviews/vogel.html>interview</a> with <b>Jeff Vogel</b> of <a href=http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/>Spiderweb</a>'s fame.
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<blockquote><b>Have CRPGs gotten better over time?</b>
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I think CRPGs now are fantastic. I would play Baldur's Gate or Knights of the Old Republic over Ultima IV any day. Don't get me wrong... When it was new, Ultima IV was amazing, a revelation, but I wouldn't play it now. The best RPGs now are deeper, bigger, and prettier.
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<b>I've noticed there has been an increasing focus on story in your games...</b>
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I've been doing this a long time. I do whatever it takes to keep my own interest up. The last few years, really involved stories with lots of opportunities for role-playing have interested me more than anything else. </blockquote>
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Well, I can certainly see how a person would really miss role-playing after playing BG and KOTOR.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.rpgdot.com">RPG Dot</A>

 

[Astromarine]

how is it called when a guy is very good at something without having a clue? "Idiot Savant"?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

What exactly is deeper about today's CRPGs? I'd like an answer on that. CRPGs in the 1980s allowed you to use skills and attributes on objects to affect them, like breaking down doors with strength or lockpicking them or even trying for the agility roll to get them open without a lockpicking skill. Most of the RPGs today are either find the key or NPC to open them or else the door stays CLOSED FOREVER.. Even KotOR had a bunch of doors like that, and it's probably the best example of BioWare's depth to date.

 

[Whipporowill]

Yeah. I found Vogel's comments pretty odd... what's better with Kotor and BG, than with the latter Ultima's, apart from less pixelated graphics?

 

[almondblight]

Yeah, he also loves Everquest. If he gets enjoyment from those games though, theirs nothing wrong with it, outside of Aesthetics it's all personal taste. Just think about how musicians you might like sometimes like musidians you think are aweful (I've heard Neil Young was fond of Lynyrd Skynyrd...ugh).

 

[Jung]

Yeah, he also loves Everquest. If he gets enjoyment from those games though, theirs nothing wrong with it, outside of Aesthetics it's all personal taste. Just think about how musicians you might like sometimes like musidians you think are aweful (I've heard Neil Young was fond of Lynyrd Skynyrd...ugh).

He said that they are deeper now, which requires more than a preference. I might(but don't) like Madonna, but I can't really claim that she is a better musician than ...well most anyone.

 

[JanC]

Baldur's Gate, KOTOR and Ultima were marvelous games and I don't see why any people who like Fallout so much don't like them. They are really all very similar, and admittedly all had their own particular flaws. You guys have a very finely defined taste in games.

 

[Whipporowill]

Jan, I think you're missing the point. I don't think Kotor or BG are bad at all, just that calling them deeper RPG's than the masterpieces of the latter Ultimas sort of has me boggled. It's simply not true.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, I think it's very clear why people who liked Fallout and thus were spoiled by gameplay with choices, consequences, and freedom; weren't particularly fond of ultra linear games like BG and KOTOR where freedom and choice apply only to choosing avatars.

 

[JanC]

I liked Fallout a great deal, possibly more than Baldur's Gate.
I started playing Ultima at episode 5, but if Ultima 4 was anything like 5 then yes, Baldur's Gate was deeper in almost all respects. Don't rely too much on the rose-tinted spectacles of nostalgia!
However BG cannot hold a candle to U6, U7, and U7.5. They were amazing, and the detail in them has not been seen in any game since. Even in Fallout, most of the stuff lying around was just painted scenery, and much of the wilderness was completely empty. I spent so long just wandering around Britannia, exploring intricately designed caves and valleys. You were more free geographically in Ultima than Fallout, even though the plot was hard-coded.
BG beats Ultima in terms of writing and character. Dupre and co were cardboard cutouts compared to Jan Jansen or Jaheira (maybe you hate them, but they were well detailed). Plus the dialog was none too hot, all misplaced thees and thous.
My point is that all these RPGs excel in some fashion. I have had good times playing them all, that I have not had with Diablo or Dungeon Siege or the similar toss that is increasingly infesting our PCs.
* Ultima had intricate detail and freedom to explore, but suffered from hardcoded plot and lousy dialogue.
* Baldur's Gate had well written characters and dialog, and polished play but a lousy plot and restricted freedom.
* Fallout combined an engaging plot and a flexible plot, as well as an addictive combat system, but had tedious and idiotic joinable NPCs.
* Planescape Torment had marvellous plot, dialog and character but was not thrilling in the arena of combat.
You can say stuff like that about all the classic RPGs, but they are all good to play, unlike irredeemable dross like Dungeon Siege. I think we should encourage the creators of RPGs that excel or they will become discouraged and cynical and give up. It is easier to write Dungeon Siege than Ultima 7, and probably just as profitable. The only reason for developers to excel in RPG design is personal pride, and unending bitching must make them wish that they developed Rally games instead.
So why not celebrate the good points of Baldur's Gate while acknowledging it's weaknesses?

 

[Volourn]

Jeff Vogel is a BIOwhore fanboy! HAHAHAHAHA! Another Codex hero drops a few notches! HAHAHA!

 

[Whipporowill]

No, not really? As long as he keeps producing such great games he can claim Daikatana is a landmark in game history as far as I care. He may loose some of his coolness factor, but that's about it?

 

[Spazmo]

We've known for a long time he's a big fan of BioWare games. Like Whippo says, as long as he keeps making good games, he can like whatever he wants.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Jeff Vogel is a BIOwhore fanboy! HAHAHAHAHA! Another Codex hero drops a few notches! HAHAHA!

He's a Mac weenie, what do you expect?

You can say stuff like that about all the classic RPGs, but they are all good to play, unlike irredeemable dross like Dungeon Siege. I think we should encourage the creators of RPGs that excel or they will become discouraged and cynical and give up. It is easier to write Dungeon Siege than Ultima 7, and probably just as profitable.

I doubt Dungeon Siege was cheap to make considering how long they spent on the engine itself. It also would have taken a good deal of time to make the world itself, since Dungeon Siege also had quite a few little nooks and crannies in it to explore. If Dungeon Siege had a better character system and/or combat system, it probably would have been a much, much better game that didn't become boring after a few hours. It's big problem was it was too automated and "levelling up" wasn't interesting at all. Encounters weren't too interesting because all you really had to do was make sure everyone got their potions when they were low on health.

 

[Anonymous]

I liked Fallout a great deal, possibly more than Baldur's Gate.
I started playing Ultima at episode 5, but if Ultima 4 was anything like 5 then yes, Baldur's Gate was deeper in almost all respects. Don't rely too much on the rose-tinted spectacles of nostalgia!

Go read the plot to Ultima 4, it alone beats most games today.

BG beats Ultima in terms of writing and character.

Like I said, check out Ultima 4.

Dupre and co were cardboard cutouts compared to Jan Jansen or Jaheira (maybe you hate them, but they were well detailed). Plus the dialog was none too hot, all misplaced thees and thous.

I'd say they are about the same, a picture with so-so dialog, just different accents.

* Baldur's Gate had well written characters and dialog, and polished play but a lousy plot and restricted freedom.

I disagree with the first two, the characters and dialog were pretty bland (there was like 3 or 4 memorable characters out of like 20 or so in the first). What's polished play have to do with anything, too? Polish a turd and it's still a turd (I think someone around here said that once.)

* Fallout combined an engaging plot and a flexible plot, as well as an addictive combat system, but had tedious and idiotic joinable NPCs.

Wow, what a major downfall...

You can say stuff like that about all the classic RPGs, but they are all good to play, unlike irredeemable dross like Dungeon Siege. I think we should encourage the creators of RPGs that excel or they will become discouraged and cynical and give up. It is easier to write Dungeon Siege than Ultima 7, and probably just as profitable.

Actually, i'd rather have an 'RPG' developer just quit if he's going to go for the Dungeon Siege = less work, more money route.

So why not celebrate the good points of Baldur's Gate while acknowledging it's weaknesses?

Weaknesses outweigh the good.
Weaknesses:
Crappy combat
Extreme linearity (YOU CANT COME HERE UNTIL ANOTHER CHAPTER)
General fantasy lameness
Goofy Star Wars-ish plot


Good:
Sometimes the dialog was better than forum posts, but not often
The music, I guess?

 

[JanC]

I have read the plot to Ultima 4. I like the idea of the Avatar being on the path to enlightenment with the Virtues. I'd like to play a game like that.
However, if it was released today all you guys would just whinge about the punishment for 'evil' actions. Your cry would be "Why can't we have an EVIL avatar?"
I am also fairly sure that the dialog and writing would have been brief and to the point, simply because of the limited memory and storage space in those days. U5 certainly was. If you remember otherwise, you probably filled in the gaps with your imagination. Go back and look at it again.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Weaknesses outweigh the good.
Weaknesses:
Crappy combat
Extreme linearity (YOU CANT COME HERE UNTIL ANOTHER CHAPTER)
General fantasy lameness
Goofy Star Wars-ish plot


Good:
Sometimes the dialog was better than forum posts, but not often
The music, I guess?

I still don't get why the dialogue in BG was considered that great. Sure, there's choices in the dialogue, but when a good chunk of them lead to the same response, what's the point? When Thanks, dude! You're the coolest guy evar! has the same reply as Eat a dick, faggot!, that's not great at all. That's one smallish step above those shitty JRPGs where you're asked if you want to save the princess and the "No" option leads back to the original question until you select, "Yeah, sure." If I don't actually have a choice in the matter, stop dicking me around like I do.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

That's one smallish step above those shitty JRPGs where you're asked if you want to save the princess and the "No" option leads back to the original question until you select, "Yeah, sure." If I don't actually have a choice in the matter, stop dicking me around like I do.

Dragon Warrior 1 still causes traumas to this very day, I see

 

[Limorkil]

I still don't get why the dialogue in BG was considered that great. Sure, there's choices in the dialogue, but when a good chunk of them lead to the same response, what's the point? When Thanks, dude! You're the coolest guy evar! has the same reply as Eat a dick, faggot!, that's not great at all. That's one smallish step above those shitty JRPGs where you're asked if you want to save the princess and the "No" option leads back to the original question until you select, "Yeah, sure." If I don't actually have a choice in the matter, stop dicking me around like I do.

That's the Bioware MO, and it still seems to fool a lot of people into thinking the dialogue has depth.

There are a few interesting posts on Bioware dialogue design on the official kotor forums, if you have the time to sift through all the fanboy stuff. A few people point out how almost every conversation uses the exact same dialogue tree template. No need to rehash the whole thing here, but one example is the way most "evil" dialogue choices are handled. Generally, an "evil" reponse is one where you make a flippant or callous remark, or you ask for a reward, or for a greater reward. For almost all such dialogue options, there are very few negative outcomes outside gaining your character more "darks side" points. In situations where asking for a reward leads to a reward or a greater reward, you benefit. Where there is no extra reward, all that happens is the NPC or your NPC companions reprimand you and you get nothing, but lose nothing either. In the same way, being rude or cruel will generally lead to an amusing rebuff, but then you end up exactly where your would have ended up had you been nice. In other words, there are no substantial consequences to almost all conversations.

The only exceptions are some key conversations at the end of the game and towards the end of the main plot on each planet. Each planet main plot has a good and an evil outcome, which generally occurs right at the very end of each planet scenario to avoid causing the developers much additional work. If that sounds like a great improvement over older rpgs, it's worth nothing that the implementation is rather poor. I managed to trigger the evil outcome on more than one occaision while trying to play a good character, just because the conversation responses are poorly worded. For example, does "This will only end in bloodshed" sound like a warning or a threat to you? I thought I was advising everyone to stay calm to avoid conflict (good) whereas what I ended up doing was encouraging everyone to fight (evil).

It's worth noting that Ultima VII (and maybe even earlier Ultima games, I am not sure) had almost the exact same dialogue system that Bioware ended up making their trademark years later. Bioware have not really improved upon the system that much, except by providing more choices, even if they lead nowhere, and using more voice acting talent. However, they should be commended for promoting a reasonable dialogue system at a time where almost all other rpgs ditched dialogue in favor of graphic and combat engines. For a time in the late 90s it looked as though the non-dialogue of Diablo was going to be the norm.

 

[Transcendent One]

BG has excellent narration, which is why I assume many people praise its dialog. Oddly enough, it doesn't stop the game from not having a single truly intriguing character personality.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Well, if you want to compare Ultima IV with any Bioware game (with the exception of NWN), Ultima IV is going to lose in all aspects. I don't see what's so great about UIV or UV, they weren't anywhere as complex or detailed as U6/7/7.5, much less Baldur's Gate.

Honestly folks, it's like saying Dune II was a more complicated game than Starcraft. Hell no, it wasn't.

 

[JanC]

YMMV on what makes a character intriguing. Personally I found the characters in BG to be entertaining and well written (*cough* Ian from Fallout *cough*) BG2 was a lot better in this respect however.

Remember if you complain constantly about the dialogue in the most well-written games, then developers are likely to conclude that "fans hate complex dialog" rather than "fans want better dialog". It is obvious that Bioware worked their little hearts out on the interaction in BG1+2, and all they got from hardcore fans was whinging. Small surprise that they didn't bother in NWN.

The only reason developers have for implementing complex games with good writing and many paths is pride and the respect of the fans. It certainly doesn't seem to have much impact on sales.

 

[JanC]

I still don't get why the dialogue in BG was considered that great. Sure, there's choices in the dialogue, but when a good chunk of them lead to the same response, what's the point?

I'll explain. The writing was good, but the level of actual meaningful choice was poor.
Have you played Freedom Force? Great game. It has excellent writing but absolutely no player choice. I still enjoyed the writing for all that.

 

[littleboy]

Generally, an "evil" reponse is one where you make a flippant or callous remark, or you ask for a reward, or for a greater reward. For almost all such dialogue options, there are very few negative outcomes outside gaining your character more "darks side" points. In situations where asking for a reward leads to a reward or a greater reward, you benefit. Where there is no extra reward, all that happens is the NPC or your NPC companions reprimand you and you get nothing, but lose nothing either. In the same way, being rude or cruel will generally lead to an amusing rebuff, but then you end up exactly where your would have ended up had you been nice. In other words, there are no substantial consequences to almost all conversations.

I think much of this is done for ease of play, and so that the player is going to be fully aware when he/she makes fatefull decisions that will affect there game. KOTOR was fun but no one could say it was difficult for any reason. All of the party quests had some meningfull negitive/positive outcome, all the planet quests the same. So basicly it's only the side quests, the optional quests, that did not have any meningfull consiqences. But really has any game to date.

 

[Limorkil]

Remember if you complain constantly about the dialogue in the most well-written games, then developers are likely to conclude that "fans hate complex dialog" rather than "fans want better dialog". It is obvious that Bioware worked their little hearts out on the interaction in BG1+2, and all they got from hardcore fans was whinging. Small surprise that they didn't bother in NWN.

I doubt they would conclude that people want less dialogue when people are complaining that the dialogue does not go far enough. Anyway, I doubt that a few people complaining really makes any difference either way. What really drives this increased emphasis on dialogue is the realization that a good story sells better. An rpg that is all mechanics and no story does not appeal as widely as one that has a good story, especially a story that the player has some control over. After all, the supposed nirvana of games entertainment is to provide a movie-like experience where the consumer directly influences the outcome. Obviously dialogue is a key factor in achieving that. Rather than seeing developers drop dialogue, it is more likely that it will become of increasing importance, particularly as the game industry tries to steal people away from watching the TV. There are plenty of people I know who do not give a shit about whether dwarves have more hit points than elves, but are very interested in whether Mr. Gimli is banging Mr. Legolas on the sly.

Besides, NWN had worse dialogue because it was designed to be a D&D 3rd edition multiplayer game builder.