Grand Strategy Yet another EU4 MP game

[kris]

Was it even considered a problem? I haven't heard anyone complaining about it. They didn't fix anything in ck2, didn't fix anything in EU4, why should they fix it in Vicky. They just don't understand the concept of decisive wars and major consequences. The only case when something interesting happens are the succession wars in CK2 or EU4.

Of course they understand that. They have just chosen to take another path. A gamist one were players are limited in their conquest.

 

[Sranchammer]

House Rules would have prevented OE from stalling for 10 years by making him release the vassal once Constantinople falls.

That's a thing that is far too weak in EUIV. If a capital falls, the whole country should be in utter chaos.

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

Of course they understand that. They have just chosen to take another path. A gamist one were players are limited in their conquest.

No they don't necessarily, and their choices are most likely not motivated by logic but pure dumb cheapness. Along with the diplomacy overhaul, a military one would be mandatory, but they have no incentive to do that whatsoever. They are one of these smaller companies who has a monopoly on a niche and who's sales mostly comes their core audience, who will always buy whatever new rehash they spew.
It's an horrible combination.

They just have to do minimal effort each iterations, slightly improving things, and ignore the lacklustre system they've come up with since they started doing map painting simulators. Just like the Total Wars.

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

If a capital falls, the whole country should be in utter chaos.

Obviously yes, but doing that would fail miserably because so many things are not taken into account when it comes to wars. If wars were to be a better reflection of the time, you would have few, but decisive battles (in which player input could be much more important); few Specific sieges of strategic fortresses; Natural borders complemented with Fortress lines preventing armies from every crossing the enemy border (or very slowly/risky); the ability to hide your armies in a fortress; armies surrendering and plethora of fun events that happens when you go too far (population going guerrillas on your armies, the Dutch breaking the dikes, new voluntary armies rising...).
Complemented with a dynamic diplomatic system, along with peace talks and stuff, we could get an excellent game. But of course this would require an overhaul of the map and engine itself to work properly.

 

[Sranchammer]

Which is why Paradox should switch to TBS if it wants to make quality games. Until then....

My idealistic Doesn't Scale to Your Level mod would address all these things as best I could. However, it would work best with a Vicky game where there's really only 8-10 powers to deal with. Less of a chance AI fucks things up

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

A simple start would be to make any provinces too far away from the capital count as overseas, even if there's a direct land connection. That's both realistic and necessary for balance, when you look at how absurdly powerful Russia or Ottomans can become. Or just make them colonial nations, Russia was after all, more akin to a very loose confederation. Conquering a 7 base value province in europe should also be worth more than snatching a 10 base value province from the Persians. You might have westernised, but those provinces are still backward, they don't reac your standards instantly. Westernisation shouldn't be that drastic as well. When Peter the great westernised Russia, that just meant he made moscow and st petersburg into modern cities, and they embraced a few ideas (not necessarily put into practice hence persistent serfdom). Most of the country wasn't up to European standards, and never reached them.

 

[Kane]

Was it even considered a problem? I haven't heard anyone complaining about it. They didn't fix anything in ck2, didn't fix anything in EU4, why should they fix it in Vicky. They just don't understand the concept of decisive wars and major consequences. The only case when something interesting happens are the succession wars in CK2 or EU4.

Of course they understand that. They have just chosen to take another path. A gamist one were players are limited in their conquest.

This is unfortunately true. I am fighting my private war with Paradox against that humbug.. anyway, where the hell were you the last weeks?!?

 

[CrimsonAngel]

So are we calling the game quits for now?

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

What If we tried to start from one of the predetermined starts? Like Spanish succession, 30 years war or something?
Might be a bad suggestion, I have no idea.

Do we still play today?

 

[Malakal]

Depends, Flying Spaghetti Monster you gonna be here today? If France is not here we may as well start planning a new game.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Depends, Flying Spaghetti Monster you gonna be here today? If France is not here we may as well start planning a new game.

Nah. I have stuff I (should) be doing and I'm kinda burned out on EU anyway.

 

[Merkwürdigliebe]

Post the save game in any case, I want to check what kind of broken MP I end up with after annexing my Chinese vassal. Got a MP cap of 300k as it is were we last ended our session, and force limits over 200k. I can't imagine how wars even later in the game are going to play out considering we are only in the very beginning of the sixteen hundreds, give me another 100 years and I will certainly be over half a million, perhaps closing in on a full million.

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

That would be the session's weakness. Except against the Ottomans, there wasn't much containment wars going on. Hence, France, Austria, Russia and Denmark blobbed ridiculously easily and fast, reaching absurd size after only 100 years. There's also the fact that there wasn't enough players for the whole diplomatic game to truly work. We could have used 11 players total, the ideal size.

If we have to start again, there's a few things that should be agreed upon first : No ottomans, or at least a player that would expand much slower and never attempt to westernize (and we have a damn good timurid player). Picking the mamluke is preferable. Austria plays like an Emperor which means they don't just try to conquer everything in the HRE, rely on alliances, union and slowly boosting imperial authority protecting the other members and preventing one from becoming too big.
A Swedish/Norway player instead of a danish, and A novgorod or crimean/steppic instead of a Muscovy, or just nothing there at all. No Russia. Lithuania preferable to Poland and someone should try the teutonic order. France should also be constantly cockblocked by coalition wars, as it was the case irl. The netherlands and Italy are also essential players for the balance of power. I always fancy Venise.

 

[Malakal]

So lets brainstorm ideas for the next game. A scenario? House rules?

 

[Kane]

So lets brainstorm ideas for the next game. A scenario? House rules?

malakal gets an OPM and everyone must declare war on him at turn 1.

 

[CrimsonAngel]

Man i had so big plans. I was going to get some colonies and then make a break for any Asian nation i could and start taking every thing in that part of the world.

 

[Sranchammer]

How bout we do that one of them one province fantasia gaymes

 

[kris]

Was it even considered a problem? I haven't heard anyone complaining about it. They didn't fix anything in ck2, didn't fix anything in EU4, why should they fix it in Vicky. They just don't understand the concept of decisive wars and major consequences. The only case when something interesting happens are the succession wars in CK2 or EU4.

Of course they understand that. They have just chosen to take another path. A gamist one were players are limited in their conquest.

This is unfortunately true. I am fighting my private war with Paradox against that humbug.. anyway, where the hell were you the last weeks?!?

I been in Burma. I think I mentioned that once or twice here. Some active vacation, like I usually do it.

While i could be back in the game tonight I have work later this evening and might have to quit around 2100.

 

[Malakal]

Fantasia sounds pretty boring tbh, imagine how many sessions we would have to build up first if we started from one province nations.

Maybe we could go for a 10 man HRE game with only minors and rules against moving out of Europe.

 

[kris]

Fantasia sounds pretty boring tbh, imagine how many sessions we would have to build up first if we started from one province nations.

Maybe we could go for a 10 man HRE game with only minors and rules against moving out of Europe.

I tried the only Fantasia mod that is around. You start with a few provinces and 5 colonists. you will grow quickly. But it seems to be pretty bugged and with multiplayer I suspect it can be a trip into frustration.

 

[Sranchammer]

or possibly a Muslim MP!

 

[Malakal]

I always wanted to try a 7 electors game in HRE, we could add Milan/Venice/Switzerland/Hansa/Dutch minor to that and have some in HRE politics.

 

[Kane]

so, it's past 6 PM. i still think we should try a game of europa gooniversalis

Malakal Sranchammer kris CrimsonAngel Merkwürdigliebe tyrannosaurus rex Flying Spaghetti Monster Krash

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

House rules? House rules?

Let's start, all up to debate of course.

1st. No Muscovy. Novgorod could be tolerated under certain conditions.

2nd. No Westernisation for Ottoman.

3rd. If Ottoman, then limited expansion. No going past Persia, No going too far down the Nile, No going in Crimea. Overall Mamelukes are a preferable choice.

4th. France must remain surrounded by human players who have the balance of power at heart.

5th. Everyone must have the balance of powers at heart. No idiotic alliances because you feel it will help you blob further. If one player just grows too strong, even those far away should feel worried.

6th. Austria must play her role as Emperor of the HRE. No blobbing inside the HRE. Expanding mostly through Unions, protecting the states from the outside enemy and from themselves. They are allowed to control the HRE through reforms.

7th. No denmark, unless something can work out with novgorod.

8th. No westernization for eastern powers past a certain size.

9th. Venise is a crucial Balancer, so is an unified Italy or The Dutch

10th. No early commonwealth, Poland should be avoided.

 

[Kane]

All these nations do not exist in EG!