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Which RPGs surprised you that they're actually great?

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aweigh

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yeah, it makes sense to me Wayward Son . Even under my own personal defintion of the easiest way to differentiate an RPG from other sub-genres i would struggle with a game like Fallout: New Vegas, which i would call an RPG and which is one of my all-time favorite video games of all time, even though it plays like a first-person shooter and not like an RPG.

as you say, the skills/abilities/"numbers" should be dominant but there can definitely be some leeway and "twitch reflexes" can play a part in the game it all depends on the specific game and how they go about it.

fallout: new vegas, even though it plays like an FPS more than RPG, is most definitely more an RPG than Dark Souls specifically because it has waaaaaaaaaaay more "numbers" driving the gameplay under the hood such as skill and stat checks during dialog, a much more involved character-generation process and stuff like perks and abilities and other stuff that shapes the gameplay to a much greater extent than in Dark Souls.

for example in dark souls you can find many videos of people boasting about beating X boss without "taking a hit" or whatever and that sort of stuff is always dependant almost exclusively on the player's ability to memorize the boss's movement patterns and the players real world reflexes and how l33t they are at dodge-rolling or in taking advantage of active frames and non-active animation frames. etc, etc.

does that sound like RPG gameplay? of course it does not. it sounds closer to fucking Street Fighter than to an RPG.
 
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aweigh

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of course now we're reaching a point in the "what is an RPG?" discussion where we inevitably must discuss the following:

"if all that matters is how the conflict resolution plays out (i.e. combat in 99% of RPGs) then can there be an RPG without combat?"

someone will bring up Adventure Games, and how early RPGs were called "Adventure Game Hybrids" and then someone else will talk about how the first computer RPGs on PLATO predated Adventure Games, etc, etc.

this discussion has been had literally hundreds of times here on the codex and every time the conclusion is the same: everyone says an RPG is whatever type of RPG they have the strongest emotional attachment to.
 
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Excidium II

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It doesn't really matter to me anymore. Any game that isn't an arcade single-screen thing got some similarites to RPGs that the developer could call it so if it wanted, and then I'm gonna judge it as such.

RPGs and videogames are contemporaries trying to achieve the same thing in different media anyway.
 

Bester

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Dark Souls and MGS5 definitely surprised the shit out of me.

I guess it could be argued whether MGS5 is an RPG or not, but if you think alpha protocol is one, then MGS5 is just Alpha Protocol done a billion times better. I never thought a game could even be this good.

Makes me sad that Avellone never played it.
 
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aweigh

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Excidium II

it matters to me when:

1) obvious non-RPGs (like Dark Souls) get praised as RPGs while other, more obscure RPGs are never discussed

and

2) when obviously bad RPGs like Oblivion get praised as RPGs while other, more obscure RPGs are never discussed

note that i have never, not once, said that Dark Souls is a bad game or criticized it in any way other than to say that it is not an RPG! the butthurt of the DS fans is amazing. whether or not a game is bad is much, MUCH more important than how much of an RPG it is.

there are tons of real RPGs that i think are worse games than Dark Souls.
 

KILLER BEAR

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I guess it could be argued whether MGS5 is an RPG or not, but if you think alpha protocol is one, then MGS5 is just Alpha Protocol done a billion times better. I never thought a game could even be this good.

Talking about MGS5, does the game reacts to player's actions similar to Alpha Protocol?
 
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Excidium II

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Well you're gonna live your life splitting hairs if you want to have a strict definition of RPG as a videogame genre. I ceased all givings of fucks on the subject, if developer wants to have their game judged as an RPG it's their loss.
 
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aweigh

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the codex literally came to life in 2002-2003 specifically to discuss the recent RPGs coming out at that time and almost immediately to then discuss what is an RPG and why and how.

not a joke answer whatsoever. dig up 2002-2003 threads and you'll find the codex has been splitting hairs over what an RPG is for 14 years. warms the cockles of my heart. no other genre receives such philosophical attention and for good reason!
 

sullynathan

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Gothic would be the one. The game doesn't open very well with pretty poor controls but it ends on a higher note.

I gotta say I forced myself to play Dark Souls 1 last week and I was hugely surprised how great the exploration and mystery of the world felt.. All the hype around it made me cringe and not play it for all the years, and for some reason I was convinced that there's some crappy story with shallow lore because of how combat-focused it seemed to be on the cover. Pretty happy to have been wrong on that one. How about y'all?
That's because codex likes games with bad combat and bad gameplay but "good story". Good combat can carry a game.


an RPG is any game where the numbers drive the gameplay. any action or decision taken by the player's avatar(s) in the game world should preferably resolve through the numbers behind the gameplay systems.

when the game allows real-time manipulation and/or direct input over actions such as avoiding an enemy attack, or attacking the enemy, then it ceases to be an RPG because it is the player's real world reflexes dictating the outcome of the gameplay systems instead of the player playing the role of the character(s).

a basic rule of thumb is: if the real world physical abilities of the player dictate the conflict resolution of the gameplay mechanics then it falls more in line with an action game than with an RPG because playing a role necessitates complete abstraction. Otherwise you can simply call any game an RPG.

RPGs are the direct attempt to translate into computer software the experience of playing table-top wargames and table-top pen & paper games; table-top and pen & paper gaming (and thus all real computer RPGs that emulate them) are all turn-based not because of "preference" but because it leads to the best role playing experience as it takes off the table the player's real world physical abilities.

EDIT: an even better rule of thumb would be: if the player's experience playing Mario or Street Fighter helps them beat an RPG then they are not playing an RPG.
you're retarded, I wish I could rate this post.
 
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Excidium II

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Well it's a game, something that you play. Naturally the interactive elements are what matter in the end. I can't bring myself to play anything for the story unless it's strongly based on player input or the opposite, requiring no effort at all.
 

Maggot

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
What a retarded and narrow definition of a genre that pretty much only classifies the wiz1-5 clones you suck off so much. When are you moving to Dungeon Master clones?
 

Siveon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I would say Betrayal at Krondor, and Fallout.

I had no pretense of western RPGs for a majority of my life, I mostly played on handhelds. At the beginning of the last generation I was exposed to more older games due to a lack of funds, so on my dusty old computer I played emulators and certain freeware titles. So, I thought, hey, why not play older PC as well. I got into Doom and Quake, and in some way or another I found the Codex and saw how many people enjoyed the original Fallout. So, I acquired a copy and started playing. First impressions weren't high, combat felt slow, interface was awkward for me, the graphics were at times hard to look at.

Like an acquired taste it was a lot better an hour in, and frankly I was blown away. Same thing happened again with Betrayal at Krondor.
 

Glaucon

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Mass Effect 1.

Ignore the romances, ignore the space exploration, and accept the horrendous combat (which manages to combine the worst aspects of shooters and rpgs), and what you have left is an enjoyable sci-fi B-movie with good world-building.
 

:Flash:

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Great is the wrong adjective, but Summoner really surprised me.
I got it from a bargain bin for a few bucks, not knowing anything about it, and thoroughly enjoyed it. After you have left the very bad introductory area, the game starts to captivate you, and it really grabbed me with the scene where the lore of the world is explained with stained glass windows in the temple. The storytelling and world-building just click and make the game work.
 
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aweigh

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aside from F: NV, another RPG that really surprised me with the impact it had on me was Vampire: Bloodlines.

when it was announced i was very prejudiced against it because Troika's previous efforts had been Arcanum and ToEE, and now they were announcing a first-person shooter using the Steam engine. I was not looking foward to it. however I bought it just because i had complete faith in Troika and it ended up being the best game Troika ever made (for me, as I know a lot people prefer Arcanum).

third RPG that HUGELY surprised me with its quality was Knights of the Chalice. i looked at the pictures and i hated the cavalier perspective but i said fuck it, and i tried out KotC based purely off Codex recommendations and GODDAMN did i become addicted to that game! one of the best RPG experiences i've ever had and the single best (and definitive, imo) electronic adaptation of modern D&D combat.

fourth, was Elminage: Gothic. the only reason I ever played Elminage: Gothic to begin with was because i was starving for a turn-based RPG and i read the RPGWatch review of the game and i said, fuck it i'll try it. it was love at first play. made me discover an entire new sub-genre of RPGs.
 

Starwars

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Mask of the Betrayer took me completely by surprise. I had my eye on it beforehand because of the talk of a more personal story and blablabla but it blew me away in a way that I did not expect.

I played Expeditions: Conquistador a long while after it was released and I really enjoyed that also. Didn't expect to like it as much as I did.

And Shadowrun: Dragonfall I suppose. I followed it beforehand because I like the Shadowrun franchise but yeah, it turned out way better than I expected.
 

Tito Anic

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Arx Fatalis - played it more than 10 years after its release, was blown away how good game was/is. Basically it is fantasy System Shock 2.
Geneforge series - was stunned by its quality. Geneforge> 99% AAA titles.
Shadowrun (Genesis) - a true pearl in console rpg scene, open world, cyberpunk goodness.
 
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Excidium II

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I've already posted this a dozen times but when I bought Fallout 2 I expected it to be diablo with guns.

Also planet escape tournament, I didn't play it until like...2009~2010 because everyone made it sound like it was shit.
 

Mozg

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VtMB and MotB, both purchased out of RPG desperation.

Nowadays I don't buy RPGs unless a recognized tasteful Codexer says it's good, so I don't really get positively surprised.
 

MilesBeyond

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I remember knowing this one guy whose definition of an RPG was "anything with potions." Fun stuff.
 

Leocruta

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As long as we're playing fast and loose with the definition of RPG (and I don't want to just repeat Arcanum or Geneforge), I'm gonna have to say the Legacy of Kain series and E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy both surprised me with their quality, and I now count them among my favourite games.
 

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