What is a Full Scale RPG?

[Vault Dweller]

Anyway, 22 months still isn't enough for ol' VD. That's action-RPG development time!

I said nothing about 22 months so why make sensational statements?

 

[Infinitron]

Anyway, 22 months still isn't enough for ol' VD. That's action-RPG development time!

I said nothing about 22 months so why make sensational statements?

Because you said three years.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Anyway, 22 months still isn't enough for ol' VD. That's action-RPG development time!

I said nothing about 22 months so why make sensational statements?

Because you said three years.

Three years to make a quality, full-scale RPG. I can't say for sure what exactly Obsidian is aiming it, but I doubt that it's a full-scale RPG. BG exploration, IWD combat, PST depth, iirc. Obsidian tends to play it safe (see that Backspace game's details - Mass Effect meets Borderlands! or the PE pitch) and doesn't have Troika's almost religious zeal (can't blame them either), so what would you do if you had a limited budget, limited time (because you have a limited budget), and a game aimed at the IE games' fans?

I would make Icewind Dale Expanded - a combat-centric game with more exploration and more text/dialogues. Take ToEE, for example. It was a combat game, yet there was a truckload of dialogues, non-linearity, choices and consequences, double- and triple-crossing, etc. Then 22-25 months might be enough to make a quality game.

 

[Infinitron]

Three years to make a quality, full-scale RPG. I can't say for sure what exactly Obsidian is aiming it, but I doubt that it's a full-scale RPG. BG exploration, IWD combat, PST depth, iirc. Obsidian tends to play it safe (see that Backspace game's details - Mass Effect meets Borderlands! or the PE pitch) and doesn't have Troika's almost religious zeal (can't blame them either), so what would you do if you had a limited budget, limited time (because you have a limited budget), and a game aimed at the IE games' fans?

I would make Icewind Dale Expanded - a combat-centric game with more exploration and more text/dialogues. Take ToEE, for example. It was a combat game, yet there was a truckload of dialogues, non-linearity, choices and consequences, double- and triple-crossing, etc. Then 22-25 months might be enough to make a quality game.

I don't understand what the difference is between a "full-scale RPG" and the "Icewind Dale Expanded" that you've described. In fact, I think you've just given yourself an easy escape hatch for when you're proven wrong.

"No, this is still not a full-scale RPG, it's just Icewind Dale Expanded!"

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ever seen me praising BG or BG2 as quality RPGs?

 

[Infinitron]

Ever seen me praising BG or BG2 as quality RPGs?

Not really, but I wasn't aware you don't consider them "full-scale" either. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

In any case, while PE would be a great success even if it merely equaled those games, I'm fairly certain it will have more choices and consequences as well. Perhaps not as much as inXile's games, though.

I ought to ask Josh Sawyer just how C&C-centric PE is planned to be.

 

[Rake]

Ever seen me praising BG or BG2 as quality RPGs?

If BG2 isn't a "full-scale RPG" for you (quality aside, that shit is subjective), then PE surely won't be a full RPG. Ziets said that BG2 combat/dialogue/exploration ratio is what they are aiming for, and even in kickstarter the pitch was basicaly BG2 with Torment's story and writting and IWD dungeons.
By your definition is any of the IE games "full-scale RPG"?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ever seen me praising BG or BG2 as quality RPGs?

Not really, but I wasn't aware you don't consider them "full-scale" either. But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

There is nothing full-scale about combat-heavy, linear as fuck RPGs with simplistic combat-driven quests: go there and kill some things, now go over there and kill more things. Your ability to influence things is non-existent.

I ought to ask Josh Sawyer just how C&C-centric PE is planned to be.

I'm pretty sure they said that it won't be the focus of the game.

 

[Infinitron]

There is nothing full-scale about combat-heavy, linear as fuck RPGs with simplistic combat-driven quests: go there and kill some things, now go over there and kill more things. Your ability to influence things is non-existent.

Yeah, yeah. In VD-land a tiny RPG like Fallout is "full-scale", while huge-ass 200 hour BG2 isn't.

Why can't you just realize that there are different types of RPGs, rather than defining one type as less "complete" than the other?

I'm pretty sure they said that it won't be the focus of the game.

I don't believe so.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There is nothing full-scale about combat-heavy, linear as fuck RPGs with simplistic combat-driven quests: go there and kill some things, now go over there and kill more things. Your ability to influence things is non-existent.

Yeah, yeah. In VD-land a tiny RPG like Fallout is "full-scale", while huge-ass 200 hour BG2 isn't.

You're confusing quality with quantity.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm pretty sure they said that it won't be the focus of the game.

I don't believe so.

I can't find the quote now as it would require going through all the interviews, but here is what they said during the KS:

"Project Eternity's team is focusing on three core ideas that will capture the Infinity Engine experiences players loved so much:

• Unique, beautiful, dynamic environments that encourage and reward exploration.
• A story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players.
• Fun and challenging tactical combat that can escalate in difficulty through the use of optional game modes."

This makes sense. Charming visuals, tactical combat, good story with good writing. Achievable goals. Branching plot and C&C would simply require too much time and may or may not be appreciated (if most people would play it only once).

 

[Lancehead]

"Factions" and "compelling dilemmas" read to me C&C.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There is nothing full-scale about combat-heavy, linear as fuck RPGs with simplistic combat-driven quests: go there and kill some things, now go over there and kill more things. Your ability to influence things is non-existent.

Yeah, yeah. In VD-land a tiny RPG like Fallout is "full-scale", while huge-ass 200 hour BG2 isn't.

You're confusing quality with quantity.

"Full scale" is a quantitative term.

Oblivion and Skyrim must be full-scale RPGs then. Hundreds of hours of content!

 

[Vault Dweller]

"Factions" and "compelling dilemmas" read to me C&C.

PST had factions too, yet it was delightfully linear with minor choices here and there.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm pretty sure they said that it won't be the focus of the game.

I don't believe so.

I can't find the quote now as it would require going through all the interviews, but here is what they said during the KS:

"Project Eternity's team is focusing on three core ideas that will capture the Infinity Engine experiences players loved so much:

• Unique, beautiful, dynamic environments that encourage and reward exploration.
• A story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players.
• Fun and challenging tactical combat that can escalate in difficulty through the use of optional game modes."

This makes sense. Charming visuals, tactical combat, good story with good writing. Achievable goals. Branching plot and C&C would simply require too much time and may or may not be appreciated (if most people would play it only once).

That's what the focus of the game is, but they didn't say C&C wouldn't also be a (perhaps smaller) focus. For Obsidian, a quality story inherently involves some degree of C&C.

"Reactivity" is a bigger buzzword for Wasteland 2 and Torment, of course.

Oblivion and Skyrim must be full-scale RPGs then. Hundreds of hours of content!

Yes, they are full-scale open world sandboxy RPGs. The first one is really bad, the second one less so.

 

[Anthony Davis]

There is nothing full-scale about combat-heavy, linear as fuck RPGs with simplistic combat-driven quests: go there and kill some things, now go over there and kill more things. Your ability to influence things is non-existent.

Yeah, yeah. In VD-land a tiny RPG like Fallout is "full-scale", while huge-ass 200 hour BG2 isn't.

You're confusing quality with quantity.

Heh, I used to love BG, just like I used to love the Dragonlance books. I guess that's how I would phrase it, Baldur's Gate is the Dragonlance of RPG games. Trite and fluffy with a comic book understanding or morals and ethics. Hey Bioware, news flash, moral equivalence and ambiguity != moral complexity.

Most of it is ham handed trite story telling. "Look at the bigots burning the Drow at the stake! How unreasonable!" Never kind that the Drow murder EVERYONE and EVERYTHING since time began.

Dragon Age, "Look at the Templar persecuting the mages so heavily! What a bunch of Mage bigots!" Nevermind that every SINGLE time a Mage experiments with Blood Magic, dozens, nay hundreds, of innocent people get killed. OOPS!

Get off my lawn you dumb kids!

/cranky old man snarling off

 

[Lancehead]

"Factions" and "compelling dilemmas" read to me C&C.

PST had factions too, yet it was delightfully linear with minor choices here and there.

I'm confident they won't look at PS:T for inspiration on factions. More likely they will borrow from New Vegas.

 

[Rake]

I'm pretty sure they said that it won't be the focus of the game.

I don't believe so.

He seems to want something Arcanum-like. In that case i don't think PE or even W2 will be what he excpects.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm pretty sure they said that it won't be the focus of the game.

I don't believe so.

I can't find the quote now as it would require going through all the interviews, but here is what they said during the KS:

"Project Eternity's team is focusing on three core ideas that will capture the Infinity Engine experiences players loved so much:

• Unique, beautiful, dynamic environments that encourage and reward exploration.
• A story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players.
• Fun and challenging tactical combat that can escalate in difficulty through the use of optional game modes."

This makes sense. Charming visuals, tactical combat, good story with good writing. Achievable goals. Branching plot and C&C would simply require too much time and may or may not be appreciated (if most people would play it only once).

That's what the focus of the game is, but they didn't say C&C wouldn't also be a (perhaps smaller) focus.

Yes, 'we're focusing on 3 core areas' means 'we're focusing on 3 core areas, but we're actually focusing on 4'

For Obsidian, a quality story inherently involves some degree of C&C.

What does 'some' mean? NWN2 and DS3 had *some* C&C, but nobody's praising it.

The first one is really bad, the second one less so.

Quite an endorsement. Buy Skyrim - it's not as bad as Oblivion!

 

[Darth Roxor]

I, for one, hope P:E is at least as awesum as Alpha Trololo

 

[Logic_error]

In my honest opinion, both comic books and computer games should stick to hamfisted morality. At least for several years until more mature writers start appearing in these fields. This actually is an unreasonable expectation (the latter part) since they seem to be disappearing from hard literature.

 

[Rake]

What does 'some' mean? NWN2 had *some* C&C, but nobody's praising it.

MotB was better on that department. Sure, it wasn't Fallout, but Obsidian never went down that road. Different style of game.
I remember that you praised both MotB and DA:O for their use of C&C. Weren't full-scale-RPGs? Wasn't Torment?
If you are happy with those 3 games i believe P:E will be at a similar level.
Why are you suddenly excpect Fallout/Arcanum ? They never promished that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Much better and I praised it in my review. However, it was an expansion and it was based on the existing engine/systems/assets. They could actually focus on C&C there.

 

[Logic_error]

Also, I would like to emphasize how *unfair* it is to directly compare Fallout with MoTB. Fallout is way older game. Which means that developers of new games learned nothing from its strengths or weaknesses.

 

[Rake]

Also, I would like to emphasize how *unfair* it is to directly compare Fallout with MoTB. Fallout is way older game. Which means that developers of new games learned nothing from its strengths or weaknesses.

Troika did. See how well it served them. IT's not a matter of if devs learned from it. If the market won't support it...

The thing is heavy C&C are very time consuming to implement.
AoD development goes for years. Fallout 2 and Arcanum were bugged messes on release. Alpha Protocol had a hell of development and was supbar in every other aspect except C&C.