Development Info Wasteland 2 progressing rapidly

[Commissar Draco]

11:25 Wasteland :D

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Surf Solar

Dude. I don't care about Wasteland yet (and my statement regarding Kosmonaut and the others I mentioned had nothing to do with WL2 or WL2 threads but was a general observation). I'm optimistic, sure. But I don't have any opinions on it BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST. But I love that some of you are too simple to understand that not being a crybaby about it before it exists does not equal being a fanboy of a thing that does not exist. I'll let you know how I feel when it comes out, howzabout that?

Until then, feel free to continue crying about shit!

 

[Vault Dweller]

They're starting with a solid bug free engine.

Google isn't your friend?

 

[tuluse]

They're starting with a solid bug free engine.

Google isn't your friend?

Poorly worded. Relative to anything Troika made or used, Unity is fucking rock solid.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't know enough to compare Unity to the Steam and Source engines, so I'd be curious to know what your statement is based on. The Source engine was buggy, that's for sure, but what makes you think that Unity is in a much better shape? As for the Steam engine, it seemed pretty solid to me.

Overall, the "custom engine vs licensed engine" debate is hardly a new one. What's pretty clear is that neither option is better by default and neither option guarantees a smooth sailing. Developing your own engine is time-consuming but you get exactly what you need and you know it like the back of your hand. Going with a licensed engine removed much hassle but usually adds as much because you're dealing with a generic, someone else's engine that's bound to have many different, exciting, and completely unexpected issues.

 

[l3loodAngel]

This guy is always bashing publishers like they are the bad guys here and it seems totally unfair. It's not like the publisher's quest for more jew gold has caused a steady decline of video game quality as they pander to the lowest common denominator of comsumer to maximize profit potential of their various franchises. I mean. there aren't a ton of consoletards that will buy anything that looks shiny even if there is no substance, right? Making the process streamlined with amazing American corporate efficiency can only lead to higher quality games in the long run.

It's easy to be righteous when you have no money. What would you do in their place? Go support interplay (PST around 36k sales), Troika (~90 k sales) or shit like beth, bio and etc. It's the gamers who failed the industry, not the publishers. They publish stuff that sells.

 

[tuluse]

Source is pretty stable now, but when Troika was using it, it wasn't done yet. Remember they had to write their own AI because it hadn't been added to the engine yet, and it was awful?

Overall, the "custom engine vs licensed engine" debate is hardly a new one.

The debate might not be new, but the options available sure are. The tools and middleware has increased probably exponentially since 2001. The market has also clearly spoken with regards to this debate, with a ridiculous number of games using the Unreal 3 engine. Building an engine from scratch is now the domain of basically a handful of companies.

Anyways, it's clear that Troika was not up to the task of building an engine that was as bug free as consumers expect. InXile probably isn't either but they're not trying to.

 

[Kosmonaut]

I've just noticed lately you've been resembling the posting habits of the Crybaby Crew® (Skyway, Shionage, Black, Surf Solar, etc) and was wondering if you've always been one of them and I'd just never noticed it.

Well, just deal with it.

 

[tuluse]

It's easy to be righteous when you have no money. What would you do in their place? Go support interplay (PST around 36k sales), Troika (~90 k sales) or shit like beth, bio and etc. It's the gamers who failed the industry, not the publishers. They publish stuff that sells.

I've read that if a Steam-esque service existed back then, Troika would have had no trouble staying solvent. They had their fans, and they sold enough copies to pay for their development. The problem was they didn't have a good mechanism for getting their product to their fans.

That's where the traditional consumer-publisher-developer relationship breaks down. Exciting times we live in that the rules are being changed pretty much day to day.

 

[G.O.D]

=

Anyway..
Amen to mister Fargo.
Keep on keeping on.

 

[Kosmonaut]

I don't care about Wasteland yet (and my statement regarding Kosmonaut and the others I mentioned had nothing to do with WL2 or WL2 threads but was a general observation). I'm optimistic, sure. But I don't have any opinions on it BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST.

This is really funny, because you once accepted that you couldn't stop defending something that you liked. You even admitted that it was a flaw of some sort that you had. This was in response on somebody else pointing your fanboi-like attitude in the Wasteland Vigilante thread. Now it turns out that you don't care about Wasteland 2. Backpedalling too much? :fretrider:

And even more funnier how you point that my "crybaby" and "shitposting" is predictable, yet you never, never fail to post either defending Wasteland 2 against crybabies, or bitching about the crybabies themselves.

 

[Kosmonaut]

This is what I don't get. How can the Web 2.0 (which, by the way, it's just an outdated buzzword), help with the development of the game, specifically with the programming aspect. It would be great to know more details about that, because I have a hard time believing it.

I don't know about Web 2.0, the point is that it's easier and cheaper to find engines and middleware with which to build a game. Troika had to make 2 of their engines from scratch, and then used Source before it was finished. InXile doesn't have to do anything like that. They're starting with a solid bug free engine. If Troika had that, they're games might have been a lot easier to produce.

Yes, I kinda agreee with you. I just had issues with the Web 2.0 comment.

 

[l3loodAngel]

It's easy to be righteous when you have no money. What would you do in their place? Go support interplay (PST around 36k sales), Troika (~90 k sales) or shit like beth, bio and etc. It's the gamers who failed the industry, not the publishers. They publish stuff that sells.

I've read that if a Steam-esque service existed back then, Troika would have had no trouble staying solvent. They had their fans, and they sold enough copies to pay for their development. The problem was they didn't have a good mechanism for getting their product to their fans.

That's where the traditional consumer-publisher-developer relationship breaks down. Exciting times we live in that the rules are being changed pretty much day to day.

Do you understand that what you are saying has nothing to do with publishers, but rather with retailers.

 

[tuluse]

It's easy to be righteous when you have no money. What would you do in their place? Go support interplay (PST around 36k sales), Troika (~90 k sales) or shit like beth, bio and etc. It's the gamers who failed the industry, not the publishers. They publish stuff that sells.

I've read that if a Steam-esque service existed back then, Troika would have had no trouble staying solvent. They had their fans, and they sold enough copies to pay for their development. The problem was they didn't have a good mechanism for getting their product to their fans.

That's where the traditional consumer-publisher-developer relationship breaks down. Exciting times we live in that the rules are being changed pretty much day to day.

Do you understand that what you are saying has nothing to do with publishers, but rather with retailers.

It has to do with both. No publisher has ever given a developer 70% of the profits made from their game. That is the standard deal for selling a game on Steam. There were a lot of inefficiencies in the old system with most of the money going to middlemen instead of the content producers.

 

[Gregz]

Because obviously, programming a complex RPG game is just a piece of cake right? Just ask ex-Troika members.

I kinda dislike the way Fargo has downplayed the complexity of game programming.

Don't believe for a second that Fargo is unfamiliar with the complexities of RPG programming, and according to Cleve the Unity engine is a joy to use, so it's likely that their in-house process has been simplified drastically by that decision.

I'm especially glad Fargo underscored how well things move along when the suits and marketdroids are kept out of the room.

 

[Kosmonaut]

Fargo is a marketdrone too o_O.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

This is really funny, because you once accepted that you couldn't stop defending something that you liked.

Mmmkay. But Wasteland 2 doesn't exist yet, so I can't exactly "like" it, can I? Another post (as long as we're taking a trip down memory lane!) I made in the past highlighted how if I'm "defending" anything I'm defending the concept of "Benefit of the doubt" or "Being reasonable with the criticism of something still in development" (which I realize is counter-intuitive to some members here but there's a reason I named...say...you and not...say...anybody else being critical without being silly).

yet you never, never fail to post either defending Wasteland 2 against crybabies

I think I just covered this, but yeah. I'll "defend WL2" after its out and I deem it to be good, not before. And if not? Well, I'll critique it based on my experiences. I don't really see the point for all the arm-flailing in the meantime.

or bitching about the crybabies themselves.

Yeah, well....supposedly: http://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/listening-to-complainers-is-bad-for-your-brain.html

(but even if not, it would be kind of cool wouldn't it...I mean...if you came here one day and people weren't perpetual attitude-diarrhea fountains?)

 

[Kosmonaut]

What's wrong with that? If you can't handle people bitching and complaining, then there's the ignore list. Use it.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

So you're saying you enjoy being a diarrhea fountain?

 

[Infinitron]

Overall, the "custom engine vs licensed engine" debate is hardly a new one. What's pretty clear is that neither option is better by default and neither option guarantees a smooth sailing. Developing your own engine is time-consuming but you get exactly what you need and you know it like the back of your hand. Going with a licensed engine removed much hassle but usually adds as much because you're dealing with a generic, someone else's engine that's bound to have many different, exciting, and completely unexpected issues.

This is where the Web 2.0 aspect comes in. You have problems? You ask the community for help.

 

[Kosmonaut]

So you're saying you enjoy being a diarrhea fountain?

Take it as you wish. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

[Kosmonaut]

Overall, the "custom engine vs licensed engine" debate is hardly a new one. What's pretty clear is that neither option is better by default and neither option guarantees a smooth sailing. Developing your own engine is time-consuming but you get exactly what you need and you know it like the back of your hand. Going with a licensed engine removed much hassle but usually adds as much because you're dealing with a generic, someone else's engine that's bound to have many different, exciting, and completely unexpected issues.

This is where the Web 2.0 aspect comes in. You have problems? You ask the community for help.

Waiting for consensus wouldn't make the game to take even more time?

 

[Infinitron]

Overall, the "custom engine vs licensed engine" debate is hardly a new one. What's pretty clear is that neither option is better by default and neither option guarantees a smooth sailing. Developing your own engine is time-consuming but you get exactly what you need and you know it like the back of your hand. Going with a licensed engine removed much hassle but usually adds as much because you're dealing with a generic, someone else's engine that's bound to have many different, exciting, and completely unexpected issues.

This is where the Web 2.0 aspect comes in. You have problems? You ask the community for help.

Waiting for consensus wouldn't make the game to take even more time?

I'm not talking about game design decisions. I mean help with specific technical problems with the engine.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Take it as you wish.

K. That's really all I was after to begin with.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

You misunderstand me. I don't particularly care if you're a diarrhea fountain, I was just wondering if you always were and I just never noticed it.

 

[FeelTheRads]

(but even if not, it would be kind of cool wouldn't it...I mean...if you came here one day and people weren't perpetual attitude-diarrhea fountains?)

I'm curious what exactly do you consider "perpetual attitude-diarrhea fountains". Because anything that's a criticism in any way seems to bother you. Is "this looks like crap" a perpetual attitude-diarrhea fountain? Can I say that without the fear of you coming in and whining about it? Or it doesn't give enough benefit of the doubt and isn't reasonable for something still in development?