Development Info Wasteland 2 Progress Update

[Commissar Draco]

Plenty of reasons to not risk your life for total stranger barbarian brat especially when in Wasteland setting, but second choice the shooting is over the top cartonish villany no argument there, nice C&C would be finding your clothes and equipment stolen by natives, ammo getting wet and/or ambushed while distracted by this bait.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Plenty of reasons to not risk your life for total stranger barbarian brat ...

Not when it's just a mouse click.

 

[Statik]

Damn, that was an awesome piece of music. I'm too tired to read through the wall of text, but the music...

 

[Commissar Draco]

Plenty of reasons to not risk your life for total stranger barbarian brat ...

Not when it's just a mouse click.

No checks for [swimming] and [DEX + STR]? :declining:

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Not when it's just a mouse click.

Look.

I know we all like being contrary and shit, but it's not like Fargo was even trying with that example. He's like the "Annoying Yet Lovable Uncle" guy telling all the writers shit like "Dudes, ok. So what if there was like a boy and he's drowning and haha, you know?" and the writers and level designers actually make it good. Or at least that's what I'm hoping.

Besides...maybe there's more xp for not saving the kid.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Commissar Draco

It's not what I meant. Certain real life aspects are hard (if not impossible) to recreate in a role-playing game. At the top of the list - anything that can be filed under "fear for your life", true selflessness, and realistic emotions.. Since your character is, for all intents and purposes, immortal, you'll bravely send him into the deepest dungeons and pit him against the most terrifying foes. The only emotions your character feels when looking at a towering dragon who can burn him to a crisp and swallow him whole are greed (loot!) and bloodlust (Imma gonna kill me some of that, I bet it gives tons of xp!). If a stranger asks you for a magic potion to heal his sick relative, both acts mean nothing to you - you know that you will never run out of potions and you don't give a shit about his stupid relative, who probably doesn't even exist in the game.

Geneforge had a cool moment when an NPC asked me to prove my beliefs by breaking a canister - a limited and very valuable resource that increases skills and abilities. Now that was something, but most games' design doesn't come close.

So, going back to swimming. Since it doesn't take much from you and you know damn well that your character won't drown, it really becomes a whimsical decision: do I feel like a psychopath today?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

What do you expect from a blog update, Fargo suddenly relates to us a scenario reminiscent of The Fall?

 

[tuluse]

I think he was just trying to illustrate how one decision can cascade into a worsening situation. I don't think we have enough information to know if the initial decision was stupid or not. I do think kill the guy who's going to rat on you or not is a meaningful decision.

I can only hope to be as jaded and cynical as Vault Dweller one day

 

[asper]

You are right, VD, but you're assuming a player that absolutely does not LARP. I think most people "put themselves in the character's shoes" to a certain degree, even if they won't admit it. That is also what Draco was doing with his claim that in the wasteland, you wouldn't save a stranger. The recent discussion about resting actually also showed this. People choosing not to rest in a dungeon after every battle did so partly because it clashed with their immersion in the game world (resting every time being "unrealistic").

But I agree that this is a bonus in a game, and not something good gameplay should depend on.

Also agreed that the example given by Fargo is quite unnatural. As shihonage said, it's a typical idea from a piece of paper. In practice things like this don't work out in this way in computer games, which are a robust and limited medium, as you know like no other. Draco's alternative examples about wet clothes and stolen gear are much more down to earth and implementable.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Well usually Devs avoid making Customers Heroes uncomfortable in any way Vault Dweller and I am not expecting too much from game which is lifeline for Fargo and Inxile, beside good tactical TB shooter in Fallout like setting, nothing too hard or controversial. Had this rare moment in Divine Divinity when Wampire asks you for blood in exchange of some brat whose Mather you can't even shag as reward ala Fallout 2. Ended up with 1 point of all attributes loss but It was OK since I RPed Sucker Paladin On the other hand you can say beggar kids F.. off and get XP + cash showing that not all Pals are stupid. Of course I expect much more from AoD judging from quality of C&C in demo and Since You have Good F.. Riddance Attitude to critics.

 

[Vault Dweller]

TwinkieGorilla

So far, all I got is hope that the game will be good. Sometimes I even dare to dream that it will be awesome, but blind faith doesn't come easy to me. So, to answer your question, I'd like to read something in the blog that will make believing easier.

It can be anything specific about the game, but if it must be an example of moral choices, I'd like it to be ... how shall I put it? ... not stupid? Not something that a 12 year old can come up with? I'm not trying to be edgy or contrary, but this example fucking sucks.

Yes, I know it's just an example, but you have to wonder why Brian used this one - after 6 months of writing - to illustrate the game's deep, mature, setting-appropriate choices.

 

[MF]

Commissar Draco
Geneforge had a cool moment when an NPC asked me to prove my beliefs by breaking a canister - a limited and very valuable resource that increases skills and abilities. Now that was something, but most games' design doesn't come close.

Playing Ironman helps introduce the concept of fear to the player. It doesn't always have to be the 'hardcore' option, it's quite possible to design an ironman game from the ground up. Consoles used to have a toned down version of this method by introducing save points. If you were close to a save point, you'd think twice about risking death by getting that extra goodie on that dangerous ledge.

This has successfully been translated to RPGs. Sometimes by penalizing saving and loading, sometimes by preventing players to load a game. On PCs this can be circumvented by killing the game process from your OS, but that's just...lame.

Besides fear, I can think of some other emotions that work. Greed and bloodlust is far from a complete list. I don't remember the details, but in Arcanum I had to ditch a certain companion if I wanted to take a new one on. The new one was way more powerful, but I grew really attached to the old one. Combine this with the fear factor -walking around with a weak companion?- and you have a real dilemma on your hands. Turns out that the weak companion proved useful later in the game. I think it was that crappy dwarf Magnus who can get you into the ancient mines on the western side of that mountain range.



Morgan's music is...meh. The resonator guitar is compressed so much that it has a really powerful effect when the lower sweep synths make room for it very suddenly, but using the same sample twice without even trying to make them sound any different? Just get a real dobro player in for god's sake! These guys work for fifty bucks an hour! That piece is so simple you can get an amateur to do it for half.

 

[Commissar Draco]

asper since when Role Playing is Life acting here? When you RP in Character Your Paladin don't steal from houses of poor and helo strangers while your Rogue does the opposite. Of course if CRPGs were not be transformed into Ego wanking devices and SIMs by jewgold hungry hacks some of this would be enforced by game mechanics.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Also agreed that the example given by Fargo is quite unnatural. As shihonage said, it's a typical idea from a piece of paper. In practice things like this don't work out in this way in computer games, which are a robust and limited medium, as you know like no other. Draco's alternative examples about wet clothes and stolen gear are much more down to earth and implementable.

What sort of scares me is that such design can easily work in a computer game and is somewhat popular even - a meaningless choice between good and evil, with an occasional meaningless consequence in form of this witness, who plays the role of a twist.

 

[Bulba]

Commissar Draco

It's not what I meant. Certain real life aspects are hard (if not impossible) to recreate in a role-playing game. At the top of the list - anything that can be filed under "fear for your life", true selflessness, and realistic emotions.. Since your character is, for all intents and purposes, immortal, you'll bravely send him into the deepest dungeons and pit him against the most terrifying foes. The only emotions your character feels when looking at a towering dragon who can burn him to a crisp and swallow him whole are greed (loot!) and bloodlust (Imma gonna kill me some of that, I bet it gives tons of xp!). If a stranger asks you for a magic potion to heal his sick relative, both acts mean nothing to you - you know that you will never run out of potions and you don't give a shit about his stupid relative, who probably doesn't even exist in the game.

Geneforge had a cool moment when an NPC asked me to prove my beliefs by breaking a canister - a limited and very valuable resource that increases skills and abilities. Now that was something, but most games' design doesn't come close.

So, going back to swimming. Since it doesn't take much from you and you know damn well that your character won't drown, it really becomes a whimsical decision: do I feel like a psychopath today?

I feel so sorry for you .
Trying so hard to find something that's not there.

 

[Bulba]

Also agreed that the example given by Fargo is quite unnatural. As shihonage said, it's a typical idea from a piece of paper. In practice things like this don't work out in this way in computer games, which are a robust and limited medium, as you know like no other. Draco's alternative examples about wet clothes and stolen gear are much more down to earth and implementable.

What sort of scares me is that such design can easily work in a computer game and is somewhat popular even - a meaningless choice between good and evil, with an occasional meaningless consequence in form of this witness, who plays the role of a twist.

computer games are meaningless from the start

 

[Vault Dweller]

 

[Excidium]

Wasteland 2 No Progress Update

 

[General Maxson]

Why don't you share your ideas on Wasteland forums Vault Dweller?

 

[Wizfall]

It was a stupid and uninteresting exemple of quest design/C&C.
Damm atfter all the writting they have done they could have come with a litlle something more entertaining and realistic.
I have big hope for W2 anyway.

 

[Dorateen]

A lawyer and a politician are drowning in a lake, but there is only enough time to save one of them.

Do you take a nap, or take in a show at the local cinema?

Now that's some real choice and dilemma.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

So, to answer your question, I'd like to read something in the blog that will make believing easier.

I understand. But nitpicking something which was obviously not intended for the kind of scrutiny we might give a fully developed idea isn't going to get you there.

 

[shihonage]

The entire "stumble upon ACSHUN scenario, make quick decision" thing is distinctly Biowarian territory. While Fallout had a fair share of events that sound similar on paper, their implementation didn't make the player feel jarringly de-immersed. BlahblahblahSPECIAL SEQUENCEblahblahblahSPECIAL SEQUENCEblahblahblah-

A true Fallouty game should treat everything matter-of-factly. This consistency should eat at the player slowly, keep them on their toes, and immerse them deeper in the world. Things just happen in the gameworld, none of them are propped up for display or labeled. Quests shouldn't have artsy names, like "Blood Ties" or "Exodus" or whatever. They should say "Find the generator", or "Rescue Jane from the necromorphs", because they are your character's notes as he goes along - not Todd Howard's. In Fallout world, shit just happens, and your character does what he can.

 

[Shannow]

So why put it out there?
Why not give a real example or point out that it's an example about cascading consequences/decisions and not "moral" dilemma?

EDIT: Damn, I hate my new(actually very old) keyboard. It makes me spell like volly...

 

[Jaesun]

Why don't you share your ideas on Wasteland forums Vault Dweller?

Because otherwise the competition might catch on, and then IneXile's game will be better than AoD.



I'm joking VD.