Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Vault Dweller, when is Age of Decadence's "skill plateau moment"?

Stompa

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
531
AoD is currently way more lenient with skillpoint rewards that it was before. Teron's thief storyline two years back was quite an experience due to how much I had to reload back and forth to squeeze out every single SP to pass all necessary checks (I believe before it also had hybrid checks that required you to have both skills at a certain threshold instead of one high skill being able to replace the other like it works now). Done it yesterday and passed all Teron content with flying colors having troubles only with the altered last sequence (at least I think it was altered, don't remember having any problems passing it without combat before).

For comparison:
AtLWkEY.jpg
6kLyaKA.jpg

There's 49 SP difference between them, 6 of those come from higher INT, 6 more from the quest unavailable in beta and another 4 from doing a thing that required 5-10 free SP I never had with this archetype before. Math is probably wonky because I don't know base values for those quests, but you get the picture.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
I haven't played AoD a lot since I don't want to spoil myself (I'm not much of a replayer), so maybe I will be fine with the final skill numbers, especially since I already know a lot about the game and to not spread my skills. But clearly the lack of flexibility is something that is still felt and discussed a lot, on the Codex of all places, so it must have some sort of basis of truth. Can't deny that the phenomenon is there.

So why do people feel a lack of flexibility? I think that this kind of feedback is very valuable, and says something about the game that points at what can be improved. You can say "the game wasn't made for you", but that's just abandoning the design challenge. Hell, as a designer, design choices where made, and those are the consequences. This is great! Now it's time to roll up those sleeves and think about solutions - unless you think that the people that want to play your game actually don't want to. I've provided my interpretation of why this is happening and proposed some solutions that followed from it, that's it. But my general position isn't new or anything, it's been developed by PnP designers trying to get away from D&D's mechanical shadow to create games that focused on roleplaying instead of character competence builds; it just hasn't gotten to cRPG design yet (Numenera might be the closest yet - and it might only be a small step).

I know my example wasn't really adequate, but it was to be taken as an example of the type of consequence that isn't fun: character build errors that reveal themselves late and can't be easily corrected. There's also the systemic problem of having so many paths closed off that the player is left with a breadth of options that seem too small to him, which is a direct consequence of skill rank requirements and a small pool of skill points.

Without beating the dead horse, I'm not on the opposite side of the fence here. As I've said many times, I agree that AOD is particularly inelegant in this area. My argument isn't that AOD is perfect, it's that there are no quick and easy solutions to these problems because these problems are an inevitable result of using a classic old school system and cranking up the C&C, and that proposed 'solutions' by forumites are often ill thought out ones that just end up making the game easy and the choices more trivial. I look forward to enjoying AOD, and also to VD's next game - and/or somebody else's - that tries to find some way to build in this kind of C&C into the system.

(And yes, as you can see from Stompa's examples as rough indications, that almost-release thief would have multiple options that he is skilled enough to take on at almost every opportunity, both at endgame Teron and once he arrives in Maadoran... and it's easy to have slightly different builds, e.g. my recent thief was similar but with 5/5 xbow/dodge; he was able to go through almost every fight in Teron, and also do stuff like infiltrate a palace, which is a high-level multi-skill check non-combat challenge.)
 

Ismaul

Thought Criminal #3333
Patron
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
1,871,810
Location
On Patroll
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Without beating the dead horse, I'm not on the opposite side of the fence here. As I've said many times, I agree that AOD is particularly inelegant in this area. My argument isn't that AOD is perfect, it's that there are no quick and easy solutions to these problems because these problems are an inevitable result of using a classic old school system and cranking up the C&C, and that proposed 'solutions' by forumites are often ill thought out ones that just end up making the game easy and the choices more trivial.
Same here, I might even like the system a lot the way it is (I love Fallout's system even though it's broken afterall). But I think VD is a bit quick in dismissing criticism (but I know he's all talk, he'll think on this eventually, which is why I bother commenting). I also agree with your diagnosis that the problem comes from the old system being pushed to its breaking point by C&C -- IMO it's specifically the skill rank requirements as a way to open up options / close them off -- which is why I've defended changing that for something else, and explained my reasoning behind it.

I think though that the feedback given on the Codex isn't always "ill thought", we've got some nice brains over here, well cultivated. And even when proposed solutions aren't viable, problems are still pinpointed with great accuracy. The butthurt flows true.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
People walling text left and right. This thread fucking delivers.

I do think AOD's pre-game screens should imply some of the stuff better. E.g. just by dividing social skills in the points screen into 'boxes' (e.g. lockpick-traps in one box, impersonate-streetwise in another), it suggests to new players what kinds of skills go together.

Sure, like in Underrail, right? I like this idea a lot.

The pre-set distribution of attributes for classes should extend to pre-set distribution of skills, so that a new player can see that the game has put 2-3 in Lockpick, sneak and steal for a thief and understands that 3 is a pretty strong value to start with and that those skills would be useful. (It's obvious, of course, but still.)

That I don’t like. This would lead players to choose always the same skills, missing a lot of content and the experimentation with different builds.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
The only "semi-solution" I see to this is to abandon the logic of the setting of the game.

But it is not just an abandonment of the logic of the setting, it is abandonment of the logic in general. We were indoctrinated to play cRPGs as heroes of Hollywood movies. Everybody wants to be the Bruce Willis type that kills an entire terrorist organization with an automatic. Now, even AoD supplies that demand. The difference is that it made it less ridiculous and infantile. Do you want to be a killing machine? Sure, no problem. But you will have to prove yourself first. And by “proving yourself first” they are not implying that you need do a bunch of illogical errands and filler stuff to become a god. You will have to fight hard. There is no way around this. If you make things easier, the characters and the entire game world becomes childish and unbelievable. Just imagine. You just talked to Dellar and he didn’t let you in to talk with Antidas. Well, he is annoying, let us just kill him for that. Now is a good time for killing him and everyone on the Daratan compound. Does this sounds plausible too you? And what is more important. Do you ever make this type of question when you are playing a cRPG? No. But if you turn down a movie because is too idiotic and far-fetched (I’m assuming you have a minimum of good taste and sense), why it is okay to play a cRPG with a crappy story, generic setting and artificial encounters? Does this compartmentalization and lack of coherence sounds rational too you? AoD is educating us to become more reasonable, demanding and critical players, thus elevating the standards of the industry, but players resent that, because they don’t want to be told how irrational and infantile they have been. They want to replay the same worn-out halp-cooked concepts, in the same way they have been doing since they were kids or teenagers. Do you enjoy the same fiction that you enjoyed as a kid?
 

Carrion

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
3,648
Location
Lost in Necropolis
Walls of text everywhere, replying to an ancient post, but....

I do like AOD and I'm playing it right now, but I think I understand the central "issue" of it.

Being a "talker" is easy indeed - if you know which way to go. The central "problem" of playing AOD is the fact that you are never sure what 'kind' of solution will be possible in certain quests - at least, not until you go talk to the NPC in question or go to the quest location. Yes, there are cases that with just a minimum of common sense you can have a good idea of what you should expect (perhaps following that beggar to an alley wasn't a shining moment in your life), but many quests don't offer options that you would expect to exist there. This forces you to approach each quest/event in the game as an experiment of trial and error (albeit with some general idea of what to expect), where in your first contact with any quest you're just "testing the grounds" to find out what options are in there.

In fact, this is something which exists in *every* game with quests with multiple solutions. And that's interesting because in AOD, this feeling is absurdly more pronounced. For the majority of quests, it offers more distinct choices than most RPGs (more than Fallout, AFAIK) but you feel more trapped and restricted when you're playing. Well, why is that? I cannot say for sure, but I imagine this is due to the CYOA-style that it has. Anyone who played a CYOA went through moments where you felt constrained by its story, which didn't offer a particular option you thought valid in that context.
I see it mainly as a result for every solution being hand-crafted in AoD, going for rigid, scripted events rather than actual systems. From some of VD's posts it seems like he's looking at RPGs rather cynically at times, often criticizing them from "fake" choices that they present to the player, like creating an illusion of freedom when they actually only offer two or three different ways to do stuff at best. Perhaps it's because of this that AoD seems almost brutally honest, presenting the available choices to you bluntly without any attempt to try to blur the line between different solutions or give you any reason to believe that there's something more there than there actually is. A typical cRPG is a cage with clear glass walls whereas AoD replaces them with iron bars because it doesn't want to trick you in any way, and because of the rigidity (or inexistence) of actual systems it's more restrictive inside those bars as well.

Let's take an imaginary example from, say, Fallout, although it could be some other RPG just as well. There's an area that offers roughly two different ways to get through it, the other being stealth and the other being combat. So, basically you could say the game offers you only two meaningful paths through that area, which is hardly impressive compared to the wealth of options you have in AoD. In truth, the number of approaches is considerably larger since FO has actual systems built around both stealth and combat, and the player can utilize those systems in any way he sees fit. He could go in guns blazing, turning the entire map into a battlefield. He could try to sneak through the level undetected. He could also use whatever combination of those systems he sees fit: Using stealth to gain a positional advantage before entering combat. Using stealth to scout the area ahead in preparation for combat. Using stealth to get through certain areas and combat to clear others. A very stealthy character might be able to effectively scour the entire area undetected, a little less stealthy might be able to go through it without combat but possibly missing out on loot or information, a minimally stealthy character might be able to use it to get past an enemy or two, perhaps allowing him to hack a computer or break into a weapons storage before having to face the enemies. A combat character might try various tricks, like trying to lure enemies away one by one or setting up an ambush at a bottleneck. None of that has to be specifically scripted, because the systems will take care of that for you. You're in complete control of your character, can move him anywhere you want to and at least try to use any skill or item at your disposal in any way you see fit.

In AoD such things aren't really possible, because every route you take is clear-cut. Going stealthy generally means passing a skill check or several of them, with failure typically leading to either death or a combat scenario (which, depending on your build, could be the same thing as death), or some softer failure state that'd probably still lead you to having to try something else. You can't choose the route you want to take unless the game specifically tells you to do so. Taking a combat route, on the other hand, generally leads to one or more set-piece-like battles where you have little control over who you fight, how you position your character before the fight, how you move about the area between combats, and so on. Even if you added a couple of alternative solutions, like using diplomacy or disguises, chances are that it would still feel more restrictive than the imaginary example above that only allowed for a couple of different solutions on paper.

Then again, most of my experience of AoD is based on the old demo, so it's possible the game has changed quite a bit on the way. Still, while I'm really looking forward to AoD and really enjoy many aspects of it, I think it'd greatly benefit from allowing more systemic reactivity.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
Not really. You can cheese a lot and try different things. I remember the first time I killed everyone at the outpost I was hiding behind the barricade to avoid the arrows from the guy with the bow :lol: . You can also do a ridiculous amount of stuff throwing bombs, acid and liquid fire. Therefore, the actual systems also provide many choices. The feeling that AoD is too rigid in comparison to FO has a very simple cause: it is harder and you can die a lot, but FO is much easier. Again, using FO as comparison, maybe the fact that AoD doesn’t have an open word also contribute to this feeling that the game is too restrictive.

I think that another cause is that players are so afraid to die in the game that they become more risk averse, which make them to experiment less with different builds, which make the game look more restrict. I’m used to play with some established dodger builds in order to maximize content and have this illusion that everyone else need the same amount in dodge that I need to pass the outpost. I was shocked when I realized that some players beat the place with dodge 5 or less using a type of juggernaut. That is because I survive with one strategy and assumed that is the only that works.
 

Drowed

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2011
Messages
1,679
Location
Core City
But it is not just an abandonment of the logic of the setting, it is abandonment of the logic in general. We were indoctrinated to play cRPGs as heroes of Hollywood movies.

The thing is, I don't really disagree whith anything you said there, but this isn't what I was talking about when I said that we shoud "abandon the logic". Possibly, "logic" wasn't the most appropriate word there. Perhaps "theme" would be better?

They want to replay the same worn-out halp-cooked concepts, in the same way they have been doing since they were kids or teenagers. Do you enjoy the same fiction that you enjoyed as a kid?

No, but the thing is, AOD could/can maitain the same level of combat dificulty while offering more non-combat options. I don't think AOD should have easier combat and that you should be able to "kill everyone, everywhere" - if anything, I think it could be even harder: I managed to be champion of the arena with my first character, a mercenary (but, to be fair, I read several posts about the game system before creating it). What I think is that the gameplay breaks when it forces you to be "just a fighter" or "just a talker" - this dyssynchrony is detrimental to the game.

Walls of text everywhere, replying to an ancient post, but....

[Big and great post.]

I don't have much to say here - this is an interesting way to see the issue. This matter of offering a more "organic" gameplay reminds me so much freedom that exists in Divinity:OS. However, they literally had millions at their disposal to create the game, so...
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
Patron
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
15,048
Location
In quarantine
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I see it mainly as a result for every solution being hand-crafted in AoD, going for rigid, scripted events rather than actual systems.

I think seeing the root of AoD's problems in the fact that it's non-systemic is a really good way of looking at it.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
The thing is, I don't really disagree whith anything you said there, but this isn't what I was talking about when I said that we should "abandon the logic". Possibly, "logic" wasn't the most appropriate word there. Perhaps "theme" would be better?.

But I understood your point. What I was trying to say is that AoD is the way it is not because the setting is a dog-eat-dog post-apocalyptic world, but because VD will not implement a game world that is too unrealistic just for the sake of freedom (read "overpowered shit") in gameplay. I think we spent so much time playing easy games with awful stories and retarded characters to the point that setting, writing and characters are just excuses to make us feel good about ourselves. What is the point in having an amazing variety of spells if you can only kill things that makes no sense, for no purpose, all the time?
 

Drowed

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2011
Messages
1,679
Location
Core City
But the game doesn't need to be easy, that's the thing. Or rather, it already is, if you play as a talker. So, the point is moot.

Making a good fighter who is also good at persuasion and streetwise (and perhaps a bit of lore too) doesn't sound to me like something "OMG, look at this surreal superman, who is able to do everything, so broken". I don't think anyone wants the game to be easier than what it already is, it's just that the distinction between "pure fighter" and "pure talker" that feels overly (and unnecessarily) artificial.

At times, it seems like VD wanted to prove a point more than actually making a game. But in the end, it's his vision, and I respect that. I like the game, but I think it could be more fun.


Edit 4: (I need to stop with this habit of posting and editing as soon as I re-read it.)
 
Last edited:

Johannes

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
10,521
Location
casting coach
A monomaniac pure fighter or talker feels a lot more artificial / unrealistic than a more jack of all several trades, tbh. A guy who almost exclusively deals with things through violence reminds me more of action movies and comic books than a more rounded dude does.
 

Harpsichord

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
1,822
Here's what I see the problem as:

The core numeric systems AoD uses are fundamentally insufficient for expressing the sort of narrative and experience it is trying to portray. This is because it is built upon principles that have their inception in wargames, with emphasis on *game*.

Immediate example, though hardly the only one, it has a Hit Point system. Nothing in heaven or earth will ever reconcile the disconnect between how HP model health and what health actually is. Arguably, nothing will, but there are numerous already extant systems which are essentially better suited to doing so. I think that something like the wound system presented in Burning Wheel would be ideal, but even something as simple as White Wolf's 'wound levels' would be superior to a HP system. As it stands, we have the view that combat should be overwhelmingly lethal and risky(which I agree is a very valid design decision) being forced through a system that was invented to represent combat as the primary(indeed, I might say only) means of conflict resolution.

I don't have the energy at this very moment to elucidate every example, but this dissonance is represented more or less through the entire game. Although arguably not as strongly in the out of combat options, as the system used to handle them is completely distinct from the combat system itself(a design premise that I disagree with, but do not feel is necessarily invalid).
 

BlackAdderBG

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
3,081
Location
Little Vienna
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Morons that clearly did not play more than 2hours are crying that putting points logically(Trade for Merchant,Lore for Loremaster) is teh hard and not the biowareian/bethesda way .You are fucking popamolers and with that the thread should had been closed page one.I'm going to sleep after leaving this gem from the steam forums that describes some of you."Hey guys I wanted to play non combat character that manipulates others with intrigue and wit -so I rolled assassin.":happytrollboy:
 
Last edited:

Nahel

Arcane
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
862
All that butthurt makes me feel like I am at Neofag. Are we not supposed to be hardcore rpg players?
AOD is tough at the beginning as every game once was and should be. If you failed your skills creating a new character is 15s...The combat is balanced if on a tough side sometimes.
When you will meet in game Elohim you will have the right to cry.
 

Nael

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
11,384
Location
Indy
Say what you will about the outdated graphics in this game but dem death animations make up for it in spades.

:greatjob:
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,575
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
So ... I tried the demo a long time ago. I built my character this way: oh, that looks neat, I want to see what that's about, I'll put a point in that. In VD's words, I spread myself too thin. Turns out level 2 in a skill doesn't let you do anything, even at the very beginning of the game. This is as I recall.

It appears from everything I'm reading that the reviewer is more or less correct that one must build a hyper specialist and then try to find the situations in which those very few skills are used. Join a faction surrounding those skills and only build those skills.

My question: when starting a new game, how many skills should I invest in? Should I plow all my points into one skill? Two? Three at most maybe?
 

BlackAdderBG

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
3,081
Location
Little Vienna
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
First town(demo) 4 in main skills in enough at start then put one level to 5 after first couple of quests .You can put two skills to level 4 in the char creation or better 4 skills to level 3. There is some level 2 checks ,but 3 is minimum for branching.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
So ... I tried the demo a long time ago. I built my character this way: oh, that looks neat, I want to see what that's about, I'll put a point in that. In VD's words, I spread myself too thin. Turns out level 2 in a skill doesn't let you do anything, even at the very beginning of the game. This is as I recall.

It appears from everything I'm reading that the reviewer is more or less correct that one must build a hyper specialist and then try to find the situations in which those very few skills are used. Join a faction surrounding those skills and only build those skills.

My question: when starting a new game, how many skills should I invest in? Should I plow all my points into one skill? Two? Three at most maybe?
New players MUST specialize to survive. Combat is hard so stick with 2-3 skills: weapon, defense, crafting or alchemy. Non-combat is easy so you can go with a wider spread, let's say 4-5 skills. Let's say Persuasion, Streetwise (main skills), Lore, possibly Crafting and Critical Strike.

When you know what you're doing and understand the combat system better, than you go play a fighter/talker hybrid.
 

Mozg

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
2,033
I've played several games and I honestly have no idea how to make a hybrid except making a combat build that completely dumps strength and uses crossbows, and uses that stat savings on intelligence so you can pump one more skill that isn't crafting/alchemy/lore, which are either secretly combat skills (alch/craft) or can sort of self-finance their skillpoint cost (lore). Trying to do that without knowing exactly what checks you're trying to hit and having them written down on a cheat sheet or something seems like a nightmare.

I personally recommend that people play straight combat builds + imperial guards or assassin's or full talker (~7 charisma, major in streetwise and persuasion, 1-2 points less in trading and etiquette) + commercium for a baseline fun experience. Both ways feel like you start being able to go where you want without hovering over reload partway through Maadoran.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,575
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Thanks VD! Although I think I tried to cover all my bases for the demo, I don't care about playing hybrid. (I dabbled in combat skills last time because of course I did, who wants to be defenseless?) Happy to try a pure talky character. Thanks for the tip!
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
First town(demo) 4 in main skills in enough at start then put one level to 5 after first couple of quests .You can put two skills to level 4 in the char creation or better 4 skills to level 3. There is some level 2 checks ,but 3 is minimum for branching.

You don't need 4 for most early game stuff. 3 is enough for the majority of checks in Teron, then you can knock up to 4 in the middle of Teron to tackle some harder things, and finally 5 in one or two main skills near the end of Teron.

2 can be helpful for some things, e.g. combined checks, but there are only a few checks where 2 gets you by on its own (e.g. Feng Alchemy 2 check)
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom