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Underrail: The Incline Awakens

Discussion in 'Underrail' started by Blaine, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. circ Arcane

    circ
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    I've been wondering about this since I played a little bit of xbow gai. What's the point of silent weapons (for quiet wars) exactly? Or do all NPC's in Underrail have an extra set of eyes in their assholes? Examples tested on live subjects: crossbow - shoot somebody, sneaking, their buddies with their backs turned, five feet away - errybody gets alerted and combat starts for realbz. Did testsubject A have a particularly loud death sigh? Were they really heavy so there was a loud thump? Sniper rifle - same thing, same result. You gotta have the other NPC's about half a screen away for them not to notice anything, and weapon choice doesn't matter at all. I know stealth games where you can take down people next to each other - realistic, depending on how they were positioned. But in dis? I don't get it. Is there a psi link that requires 10 feet of distance not to go off? Why is stealth broken the instant combat starts when they don't even have a clue where the shot came from?
     
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  2. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Tigranes
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    I've been able to sniper rifle people with great results for staying silent, though I haven't tried my silent pistol yet. If you kill them in 1 turn, or if you stun them so they don't make any sound themselves, then it seems to be fine as long as the other allies are out of immediate earshot.

    If you mean the buddies are literally five feet, I mean, surely that's too close?
     
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  3. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

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    I'm glad you asked. The way I see things AR = burst fire. Every single AR feat is related to burst fire, so it stands to reason that synergy with burst fire will be the main criteria for choosing your AR. Unlike pistols, caliber isn't the only thing that determines your Assault Rifle's damage output and AP cost. Your choice of frame and the rapid reloader upgrade (RR) will also impact the AP cost for firing your weapon. It should also be noted that adrenaline shots give you 20 extra AP, for a total of 70. And since adrenaline shots in Underrail are more common than STDs in Africa, it makes perfect sense to plan your build around those 70 AP, not the vanilla 50. When you consider all these things plus the fact that burst fire costs three times the AP needed for a regular shot, we reach the numbers in this table I made and was just waiting for an opportunity to share with the bros ITT:

    [​IMG]

    Highlighted in blue are the combinations that allow for double burst firing. There is little doubt that being able to burst fire twice without relying on Gun Rush procs trumps whatever advantage the alternative might offer. So our choices boil down to:

    7.62 Marauder with the rapid reloader upgrade: since Hornet Frames are rare as hell, you'll probably end up crafting one of these at some point. Compared to the Hornet frame, the Marauder lacks the 10% bonus to burst fire accuracy but makes up for it with 10% extra critical damage.

    7.62 Hornet with the rapid reloader upgrade: the lowest you can go in terms of AR AP costs. Burst firing this weapon twice will cost you 54 AP, which is 4 AP too much for a non-buffed character. Frankly, if you wanna go 7.62 Hornet, use the upgrade slot for something else. Rapid reloader is a bit of a waste in this case.

    7.62 Hornet without the rapid reloader upgrade: I never tested this combination. This might be THE optimal AR, since it can burst fire twice by default, allowing you to use a SMART module AND an anatomically-aware scope for maximum DPT.

    8.6 Hornet with rapid reloader upgrade: this is the combination my AR guy is using right now. The higher damage of the 8.6 caliber combined with that juicy 10% bonus to burst fire accuracy AND the oh-so-indispensable SMART module resulted in a weapon that allowed me to effortlessly send Carnifex to hell. For those of you who might be interested, here is a picture of my AR:

    [​IMG]
    It was assembled with the following components:

    • Hornet Frame - 112 quality
    • 8.6 Barrel
    • SMART module - 111 quality
    • Rapid reloader
    The crafting requirements are 97 Mechanics and 81 Electronics. It should be noted that SMART is the only reason why we need that much electronics but the investment is well worth it. As I said many times before ITT, SMART is mandatory for ranged characters, since both burst fire and aimed shot are considered "special attacks". My SMART module is literally boosting my damage by 50%. You can't compare that with either 50% extra critical damage or 10% extra critical chance.
    Choosing SMART is simply...smarter! :happytrollboy:

    ALSO, I'm 99% certain that the bonus provided by SMART modules from guns stacks with the bonus provided by SMART lenses from goggles. But since goggles give a much smaller bonus than modules, I'm thinking seeker lens might be superior DPT-wise, depending on what else is affecting your criticals. But then again, SMART bonus is guaranteed, whereas criticals are less reliable.

    Final thoughts:

    • Huszar frames are crap. Requiring 7 STR instead of 6 is a disadvantage though usually a moot point since you're going for the Full Auto feat anyway. What breaks the deal is the fact that the Huszar frame has a 5% PENALTY to burst fire accuracy. Looking at the table above, we also realise that not a single combination involving the Huszar frame is capable of burst firing twice. All things considered, the Huszar is IMO the worst AR frame in the game.
    • Although Chimera frames are also incapable of burst firing twice, they have higher critical damage bonus (130%) and slightly reduced base critical chance (5% instead of the usual 7%). I believe a burst-critical build around this particular frame is very much possible.
    • No combination of frame and barrel results in 9mm burst firing twice. That's a shame because 9mm special bullets are better IMO than their 7.62 and 8.6 counterparts. Upfront damage is always better since we wanna dispatch everyone with a single burst.
    • Focus Stim has amazing synergy with AR burst fire since the 15% increase applies to the entire burst, thus resulting in a pretty noticeable DPT increase. With my rifle you can pop Focus Stim and burst fire twice for exactly 70 AP. See you in hell, Carnifex. :martini:
    • As an AR commando you should be buying all the ammo that the store has in stock. Preferably you should buy all the ammo for all three AR calibers AND their special bullets. Trust me, burst firing everyone and his dog (literally, since there are guard dogs in this game :D) is a VERY ammo intensive business.
    • Speaking of ammo, you might wanna vary your choice of AR caliber from time to time. That's the reason why I chose the 8.6 Hornet instead of 7.62 on the screenshot above. By the time I finally found a high-quality Hornet frame my stock of 7.62 bullets was completely depleted by the 7.62 Rapid Smart Marauder rifle I was using before. Heck, if you're not constantly visiting weapon stores you might end up depleting your reserves of BOTH calibers, forcing you to use a 9mm rifle. In that case, Chimera is the best choice because of the extra damage on criticals.
    Well, that's it, guys. I hope the info was useful! :P
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
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  4. Excidium II Self-Ejected

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    Do crafted energy/chem weapons use those modules too?
     
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  5. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

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    Yes, they can. Although it's not very accurate to say "energy/chem WEAPONS" since AFAIK there are only energy/chem PISTOLS. If your build is not a pistol build (AKA high dexterity), it might be best to stay away from these weapons.
     
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  6. Excidium II Self-Ejected

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    Oh I'm going with a pistol build. Was in fact bummed that gunslinger only applies to firearms.
     
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  7. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

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    Then don't be bummed because:

    http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dexterity

    Energy weapons are very much affected by the Gunslinger feat! AP values in this table are dated tho, IIRC.
     
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  8. Excidium II Self-Ejected

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    I guess I'll test it when I get it but it says only firearms in the tooltip of the feat.

    EDIT: from patch changelog:

    Dexterity page was last edited months before that change so it isn't up to date.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2016
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  9. Ellef Deplorable

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  10. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

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    Oh shit, you might be right. The Dexterity page is completely outdated AND the gunslinger page has this "0.2.0.1 - AP reduction changed to 2 (down from 3) and only applies to firearms now."

    Gotta ask epeli about this.
     
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  11. Excidium II Self-Ejected

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    Yeah, I checked and edited my post seconds before you replied. :M

    They oughta open the wiki so people can edit.
     
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  12. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Eyestabber and others, I went with a mostly Sniper Rifle build in the early stages, but how should I be working out my second weapon?

    In other words, I began with a 5/7/7/3/10/3/5, boosted DEX and INT, and I've been focusing on stealth/sniping - but when battle starts you want to be able to switch to another weapon for versatility. I've experimented with whatever pistols, SMGs and ARs (rathound regalia = 6STR) I can find, all to decent-ish effort, and I've just crafted an electroshock pistol that I've toyed around with. It's hard to know what to plan for because I'm not sure what kind of chemical/energy weapons I can get (and I didn't even know at the start those are pistol only). I also haven't been getting any burst-oriented feats.

    Is it worthwhile to continue bumping electricity and/or chem and develop energy/chem pistols, or is it better to latch on to SMGs and/or ARs for bursting when shit hits the fan?

    Currently level ~13 in Core City, Dragunov if I want 2 sniper shots per turn but I also have a high damage sniper and high crit chance sniper to rotate. I have ~75 mechanics, ~50 elec/tailoring, ~25 chem/bio, but it's hard to know which ones to jack up. Hell, focus stim requires 50 bio right? I've never even seen one.
     
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  13. circ Arcane

    circ
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    Yeah I've been able to snipe silently with a sniper rifle just fine too. What I'm saying though amidst that block of text is that using a crossbow under the same circumstances makes no difference. I thought crossbow was a 'silent' weapon, it's no more silent than a sniper rifle and the only reason to pick crossbow is less damage but 2x actions a turn and special bolts and whatever feats you want.
     
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  14. ST'Ranger Arbiter

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    ARs are generally going to be your best companion weapon to Snipers, even without the feat support. Pistols can be effective dependent on your character, but ARs will automatically just go with your Sniper build.
     
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  15. circ Arcane

    circ
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    Unless you don't have 7 str. Unless there are AR's with less required.
     
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  16. ST'Ranger Arbiter

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    Only Huszar requires 7. All others are 6. Taking 1 extra STR on a Sniper character is worth it to have the good sidearm with no feat support required. And if you can manufacture your own Sniper Rifle, you can of course manufacture a good AR with the exact same skills.
     
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  17. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Yeah, ARs require 6. And if I know I'll continue to use ARs, I'll bump STR up the next time, right now I can use the Regalia. I suspected that SMGs would be the poor man's AR.
     
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  18. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

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    Well, you probably realised by now that the sniper rifle is great for alpha striking, but a terrible weapon for sustained engagement. The obvious choice is the AR since it's just one extra STR point away from the 5 required by sniper rifles. Sniper/AR have great synergy since they rely on roughly the same things. Pistols are good since you have decent/high dexterity. Because their per-shot damage is high and their AP cost is low, they might just be the perfect tool for finishing off an enemy wounded by a regular sniper shot. SMGs...NO. I only used SMGs in the alpha and I remember disliking them very much. Lowest per shot damage in the game = DT shuts you down hard. You'll end up burning tons of AP bullets just to stay relevant. Energy pistols might be a very interesting choice since their high AP costs means you won't be able to fire them more than twice anyway, so the difference between mid and high dex is none whatsoever.
     
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  19. ST'Ranger Arbiter

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    SMGs with good DEX and feat support are in no way a poor man's AR. But an unsupported AR is a lot better than an unsupported SMG.
     
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  20. epeli Prophet

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    The Core City - University connection, right? That bothered me as well. The route is so short because the university station was probably moved at some point. It originally had different color metro line markings.

    AFAIK there was to be a train depot (similar to Rail Crossing) in the north. Probably something else as well. So yes, Upper Underrail was planned to be larger, but the same can be said about almost anything in Underrail. Time is always the limiting factor, never lack of planned content.

    I haven't checked the AP value table recently, but it should be correct sans the gunslinger changes.

    Yes! They really, really should! That was the plan, get it open just before release. But as you can guess, Styg's too busy with with the game though and the website's not high priority. He barely had the time to optimize it enough so it doesn't throw errors all the time after the release brought increased traffic. And I can't do anything about the wiki being locked. It'll be opened eventually, but in the meantime you can always ask me or Styg if you want a wiki account.

    Everything listed under attacks in your quick invoker (F) count as a special attack. Excluding the default attack, of course. Also, smart goggles and smart modules stack additively before you ask.

    Hunter doesn't always apply to your damage (only against critters), so it won't show up in combat stats. Same with expertise and many other things that have some sort of situational stat/damage increase.
     
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  21. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

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    Oh, my post was referring to energy pistols. They are no longer affected by gunslinger, right?

    BTW:

    My metagaming sense was right! :martini:

    And regarding the wiki, you can put my AR table there if you want. :desu:
     
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  22. epeli Prophet

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    Time is split into smaller discrete units to allow more precise control over AP costs. So the AP per turn number is larger. And I think that turns in Underrail represent a slightly longer time period than they did in Fallout. (I don't really remember how the TB/RT conversion worked in Fallout Tactics.)

    Underrail isn't balanced more like Fallout because it isn't Fallout. Besides, Fallout also had gimmick builds that could perform over 10 attacks per turn. :roll:

    Yes, gunslinger now only works with firearms. One of the numerous nerfs Styg did to bring energy weapon gunners back to mere mortals.

    What's that table?
     
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  23. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

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    AP costs for every combination of frame, barrel and rapid reloader:

    [​IMG]

    Highlighted in blue are the combinations that allow you to burst fire twice (using adrenal shot, ofc).
     
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  24. epeli Prophet

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    Good idea. Did you test all those numbers in-game or are they conjecture? (The rounding may not always work as you'd expect, numbers are often truncated rather than rounded.)
     
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  25. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

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    Tested in-game.

    I have a stash in Core City full of gun parts and the disassemble feat. These values were copied straight from the crafting screen.
     
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