Twitcher 3 is very far from the best written game ever

[Lambach]

In real life, crime bosses tend to have attributes that make them bosses. Bernard Loredo in TW2 was also a depraved, sadistic fuck and rotten to the core, but he had more than that to him and as a result was a notably more interesting character than Whoreson Junior.

Whoreson Junior was a very minor character, while the whole first chapter of TW2 basically revolved around Loredo. If every minor character in TW3 was as developed and given as much screen time as Loredo, TW3 would've taken 600 hours to finish.

I agree that Radovid was pretty botched in this game, tho.

 

[Storyfag]

In real life, crime bosses tend to have attributes that make them bosses. Bernard Loredo in TW2 was also a depraved, sadistic fuck and rotten to the core, but he had more than that to him and as a result was a notably more interesting character than Whoreson Junior.

Whoreson Junior was a very minor character, while the whole first chapter of TW2 basically revolved around Loredo. If every minor character in TW3 was as developed and given as much screen time as Loredo, TW3 would've taken 600 hours to finish.

Well, theoretically, the entire Novigrad chapter revolved around the Big Four, of whom Whoreson is a member. He should be as fleshed out as Loredo to do justice to the entire criminal underworld of the Free City.

 

[sser]

The games and books are separate as far as I know.

The Witcher 3 literally

Is not canon.

Ciri's powers are complete bullshit, there is no foreshadowing for the rage moment. It is a "she can do this by the way!" moment.

Welcome to the Fantasy Genre.

Also Caranthir's teleportation powers far outclass Ciri's. The most she does in terms of teleportation is warp both her and Geralt. Caranthir warps an entire ship and tears holes between dimensions to let the White Frost loose. Great job on showing how "powerful" and necessary Ciri is.

Okay seriously, have you played the game? You keep making statements that seem like you haven't. At one point in the game she desperately teleports out of an area and destroys an entire forest. She hardly even knows what she's doing with her powers and is already warping dimensions and causing mass destruction.

Also, Ciri's power has a shitload of potential. If she knew what she was doing there wouldn't be a fucking story, dude. It'd just jump right to the end. It's like asking why the Empire wants Luke when the Emperor can just zap people with his hands. Come on.

 

[Carrion]

Well, theoretically, the entire Novigrad chapter revolved around the Big Four, of whom Whoreson is a member. He should be as fleshed out as Loredo to do justice to the entire criminal underworld of the Free City.

Agreed. The Novigrad chapter in general suffers from having too many characters that are introduced, used as a one-off plot device and then all but forgotten after they've served their function in the story. It lacks focus. The Big Four setup is something that could've been the focal point of that part of the game, yet not that much is made out of it in the end, as it simply fades to the background after Geralt has found what he was looking for. The oneiromancer and the doppler would seem like super useful allies to have, but they only do their thing once and only make a short cameo later on in the game. The whole chapter feels like a collection of ideas rather than a complete story.

 

[Lhynn]

Ludo Lense keeps failing hard, its kinda cute to watch.

 

[Ninjerk]

Time for some new fanboy tags.

 

[Ludo Lense]

The games and books are separate as far as I know.

The Witcher 3 literally

Is not canon.

Ciri's powers are complete bullshit, there is no foreshadowing for the rage moment. It is a "she can do this by the way!" moment.

Welcome to the Fantasy Genre.

I don't even even know how to reply to these two points. They are so misguided I can't even say they are wrong. GG no re you won mate. I guess that means anything goes in Fantasy for you.

Also Caranthir's teleportation powers far outclass Ciri's. The most she does in terms of teleportation is warp both her and Geralt. Caranthir warps an entire ship and tears holes between dimensions to let the White Frost loose. Great job on showing how "powerful" and necessary Ciri is.

Okay seriously, have you played the game? You keep making statements that seem like you haven't. At one point in the game she desperately teleports out of an area and destroys an entire forest. She hardly even knows what she's doing with her powers and is already warping dimensions and causing mass destruction.

Also, Ciri's power has a shitload of potential. If she knew what she was doing there wouldn't be a fucking story, dude. It'd just jump right to the end. It's like asking why the Empire wants Luke when the Emperor can just zap people with his hands. Come on.

Please point me to the exact moment where we find out that Ciri destroyed the Forest. Feel free to link anything else that supports this cause. Notice that she escapes with just a standard portal at the end. If anything Avallac'h appears to be the one slinging the destructive magic and even then it isn't clear what caused the cataclysm.

 

[sser]

Please point me to the exact moment where we find out that Ciri destroyed the Forest. Feel free to link anything else that supports this cause. Notice that she escapes with just a standard portal at the end.

The entire reason you go to Skellige is because there's a story of a huge explosion destroying a forest. It even pops in the loading screen to remind the player what they're doing:



Both Geralt and Yennefer surmise it's Ciri. When you get to the forest it's all charred and Yenn uses a fantasy Geiger counter to see it was Ciri who blew it all to shit. Ciri does not have full control of her power yet. Again, if she did there would not be a story to begin with...

If anything Avallac'h appears to be the one slinging the destructive magic and even then it isn't clear what caused the cataclysm.

It's pretty clear...

 

[Ludo Lense]

Please point me to the exact moment where we find out that Ciri destroyed the Forest. Feel free to link anything else that supports this cause. Notice that she escapes with just a standard portal at the end.

The entire reason you go to Skellige is because there's a story of a huge explosion destroying a forest. It even pops in the loading screen to remind the player what they're doing:



Both Geralt and Yennefer surmise it's Ciri. When you get to the forest it's all charred and Yenn uses a fantasy Geiger counter to see it was Ciri who blew it all to shit. Ciri does not have full control of her power yet. Again, if she did there would not be a story to begin with...

If anything Avallac'h appears to be the one slinging the destructive magic and even then it isn't clear what caused the cataclysm.

It's pretty clear...

Right with this I am done since I have spent way too much time on the blindingly obvious. Both your quotes say that Ciri is related to the explosion but do not outright state it. Granted this doesn't mean Avallac'h did it except....the Quest Echoes of the past proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did.

I personally recorded the following footage from my save files just a few minutes ago.



Fact 1: In the first vision of the mask we see Avallac'h and Ciri. We can clearly tell who is who by the models. Specifically the hair.

Fact 2: In the second vision the two are surrounded, Avallac'h kneels and a magical shock wave knocks out all of the opponents around them.

Fact 3: Yennefer clearly states that this was the mighty spell that destroyed the forest.

It is beyond the shadow of a doubt that Avallac'h destroyed the forest, not Ciri.

With that, I am out.

 

[sser]

Oh okay, so it was Avallach. Big whoop. Glad we got so utterly far away from the original topic you finally found a straw to grasp onto.

 

[Ninjerk]

Did you even play the game, Ludo Lense ?

 

[Mark Richard]

Please point me to the exact moment where we find out that Ciri destroyed the Forest. Feel free to link anything else that supports this cause. Notice that she escapes with just a standard portal at the end.

The entire reason you go to Skellige is because there's a story of a huge explosion destroying a forest. It even pops in the loading screen to remind the player what they're doing:



Both Geralt and Yennefer surmise it's Ciri. When you get to the forest it's all charred and Yenn uses a fantasy Geiger counter to see it was Ciri who blew it all to shit. Ciri does not have full control of her power yet. Again, if she did there would not be a story to begin with...

If anything Avallac'h appears to be the one slinging the destructive magic and even then it isn't clear what caused the cataclysm.

It's pretty clear...

Right with this I am done since I have spent way too much time on the blindingly obvious. Both your quotes say that Ciri is related to the explosion but do not outright state it. Granted this doesn't mean Avallac'h did it except....the Quest Echoes of the past proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did.

I personally recorded the following footage from my save files just a few minutes ago.



Fact 1: In the first vision of the mask we see Avallac'h and Ciri. We can clearly tell who is who by the models. Specifically the hair.

Fact 2: In the second vision the two are surrounded, Avallac'h kneels and a magical shock wave knocks out all of the opponents around them.

Fact 3: Yennefer clearly states that this was the mighty spell that destroyed the forest.

It is beyond the shadow of a doubt that Avallac'h destroyed the forest, not Ciri.

With that, I am out.

Here's the confirmation you're looking for.

Spoiler

During the reunion, there's an option to go through everything that happened up until that point. Geralt assumes it was Avallach'h who destroyed the forest, which Ciri confirms. And since she was actually there, case closed. (7:00 within the video)

 

[Ludo Lense]

You know, I done with actual Witcher 3 arguments but just formalize this to purely abstract constructions.

Okay seriously, have you played the game? You keep making statements that seem like you haven't. At one point in the game she desperately teleports out of an area and destroys an entire forest.

Oh okay, so it was Avallach. Big whoop. Glad we got so utterly far away from the original topic you finally found a straw to grasp onto.

Retroactively changing the weight you ascribe to your argument after losing it is intellectually dishonest.

It is irrelevant how far we go with the chain of argumentation as long as it is cohesive. We started with how Eredin's use of Ciri's powers was not/poorly explained to Ciri's powers themselves being poorly explained. The chain of argumentation flows logically.

In other words, "fanboy" is a state of mind. I read your content. You aren't stupid. Be better than this.

 

[sser]

You know, I done with actual Witcher 3 arguments but just formalize this to purely abstract constructions.

Okay seriously, have you played the game? You keep making statements that seem like you haven't. At one point in the game she desperately teleports out of an area and destroys an entire forest.

Oh okay, so it was Avallach. Big whoop. Glad we got so utterly far away from the original topic you finally found a straw to grasp onto.

Retroactively changing the weight you ascribe to your argument after losing it is intellectually dishonest.

It is irrelevant how far we go with the chain of argumentation as long as it is cohesive. We started with how Eredin's use of Ciri's powers was not/poorly explained to Ciri's powers themselves being poorly explained. The chain of argumentation flows logically.

In other words, "fanboy" is a state of mind. I read your content. You aren't stupid. Be better than this.

My argument hasn't changed at all. That thing you latched onto was just an example of the narrative -- that Ciri is not in full control of her power. It was a misplaced example, yet the point is not changed. I only used it as yet another example because you thought it was bullshit that Ciri exploded with heretofore unknown power as if that's never happened in fantasy before, then you thought it was bullshit that the fantasy genre tends to lean on magical deus ex machinas, and then you thought it was unfathomable that I suggested the game wasn't canon, and then you had this tendency to ask what you thought were rhetorical questions, but when they got answered you kept rearranging the intention of the questions (what/why/how) to try and keep them rhetorical as it's now obvious there was nothing honestly earnest about those questions in the first place.

The chain of arguments hasn't flowed all that well and I'm being very kind to you in this regard. This game's writing is not flawless, but as far as story beats and structure go, there is nothing mechanically wrong with it. Statements like this:

He is a power hungry king who leads a band of inter-dimensional slaver elves to save his people by using Ciri for....the shitty plot doesn't explain

Highly suggest plotholes where the aren't any.


Statements like this:

Ciri's powers are complete bullshit

Are non-sequiturs in the framework of a fantasy game. And the game does basically tell you that Avallach knew she had the power. It's just that the game is from Geralt's point of view for the most part, so you don't find out the machinations for it until you kick around the elf's lab.


Statements like:

(Paraphrased) It was in the books!

Are non-sequiturs when the game is not canon. I mean, if you want to discuss the story of something, you should stay within the bounds it has set for itself. Otherwise it's just complaining about it not doing things it's already been given free liberty specifically not to do.


Witcher's writing has issues as many people have already pointed out, but a lot of it has to do with either pacing (the rushed ending) or samey gameplay (hurr hurr, make one of two choices on how you want your teeth kicked in). These other 'faults' seem needlessly petty to me and don't serve any analytical purposes at all. That is my argument, anyway.

 

[Carrion]

Even in fantasy you need to have some rules on how things work. You can't just come up with bullshit and then shrug it off with "lol magic", because then the suspension of disbelief is gone. On the other hand, if you try to explain your fantastical elements too much, you might end up with midichlorians* or worse. Fantasy becomes dull if there's no room for mystery, and you really need to find the right balance on what you tell and what you don't tell. For the most part, I don't think it's a problem that TW3 is vague about the magnitude of Ciri's powers. You're generally given enough information to understand what's going on despite the inconsistencies and the shallow portrayal of the Wild Hunt. Still, I think that the game crosses that line at the end when

Spoiler

Ciri jumps into a portal and apparently saves the world by preventing climate change.

It's just not convincing enough for you to buy it considering what the books and the games have told you about the White Frost up until that point. The whole sequence feels really contrived, and there's no easy way to fix it — the game doesn't even try to explain it, leaving many things open for interpretation, but it feels like you're trying to make sense of something nonsensical instead of searching for some actual deeper meaning behind it all.

* Yes, they already kind of already exist in the Witcher universe with the Elder Blood and all, but you know what I mean.

 

[Sykar]

Even in fantasy you need to have some rules on how things work. You can't just come up with bullshit and then shrug it off with "lol magic", because then the suspension of disbelief is gone. On the other hand, if you try to explain your fantastical elements too much, you might end up with midichlorians* or worse. Fantasy becomes dull if there's no room for mystery, and you really need to find the right balance on what you tell and what you don't tell. For the most part, I don't think it's a problem that TW3 is vague about the magnitude of Ciri's powers. You're generally given enough information to understand what's going on despite the inconsistencies and the shallow portrayal of the Wild Hunt. Still, I think that the game crosses that line at the end when

Spoiler

Ciri jumps into a portal and apparently saves the world by preventing climate change.

It's just not convincing enough for you to buy it considering what the books and the games have told you about the White Frost up until that point. The whole sequence feels really contrived, and there's no easy way to fix it — the game doesn't even try to explain it, leaving many things open for interpretation, but it feels like you're trying to make sense of something nonsensical instead of searching for some actual deeper meaning behind it all.

* Yes, they already kind of already exist in the Witcher universe with the Elder Blood and all, but you know what I mean.

Uh no, in many famous books series like Lord of the Rings magic remains utterly mysterious and nothing is explained about it and just pops up where it is convenient. Quite often you wonder why Gandalf is not using any magic at all or just minor stuff like making a small light only to fight the Balrog with magic and then later shoting beams of light out of his hand suddenly when he fights for Gondor. Same with Tom Bombadil who is the only one in the whole Middle Earth universe who for some reason is incorruptible by the one ring.

In the Witcher game series, while we have quite some profound knowledge about Witcher Signs which is a form of minor magic, we have close to no concrete knowledge about Elder Blood or higher magic like those Sorceresses use.

As to Ciri and her powers, it is explained that she has Elder Blood in her which is the reason for her powers. Such things are not uncommon to use as plot devices and I see nothing wrong with it.
Furthermore there is no need to explain. Magic is magic particularly because it is unfathomable to the people in the story and to reader.

Ultimately any kind of magic is a miracle which defy and break the common laws of the universe and almost all universes have for the most part the same as our world.

 

[Carrion]

Uh no, in many famous books series like Lord of the Rings magic remains utterly mysterious and nothing is explained about it and just pops up where it is convenient.

Not really. There's a difference between not explaining something and simply writing nonsense. What matters is that you tell your story in a way that the reader (or player) can buy it, and if you screw that up, you've failed as a storyteller. Tolkien knew the importance of establishing the rules for your universe and sticking with them as well as anyone. While he doesn't go into detail explaining how spells work or anything like that, he tries to provide context for everything that's happening in the story. There are lengthy pieces of exposition about the Ring and its properties, and he tries to provide answers to the obvious questions like why it needs to be destroyed instead of just being tossed into the Sea or given to Tom Bombadil for safekeeping. Speaking of the latter, there's also a lengthy discussion on why and how Tom Bombadil is as powerful as he is, even if it's never specifically spelled out. The book does have its inconsistencies and deus ex machina moments, probably because it was written over such a long period of time, and yes, those are some of the more poorly-written parts of it rather than something that should be regarded as some sort of a universal standard. Just because your setting has magic in it doesn't mean that you can pull shit out of your ass and get away with it.

 

[sullynathan]

we comparing TW3 to only CRPGs or every other genre?

 

[Sykar]

Uh no, in many famous books series like Lord of the Rings magic remains utterly mysterious and nothing is explained about it and just pops up where it is convenient.

Not really. There's a difference between not explain something and simply writing nonsense. What matters is that you tell your story in a way that the reader (or player) can buy it, and if you screw that up, you've failed as a storyteller. Tolkien knew the importance of establishing the rules for your universe and sticking with them as well as anyone. While he doesn't go into detail explaining how spells work or anything like that, he tries to provide context for everything that's happening in the story. There are lengthy pieces of exposition about the Ring and its properties, and he tries to provide answers to the obvious questions like why it needs to be destroyed instead of just being tossed into the Sea or given to Tom Bombadil for safekeeping. Speaking of the latter, there's also a lengthy discussion on why and how Tom Bombadil is as powerful as he is, even if it's never specifically spelled out. The book does have its inconsistencies and deus ex machina moments, probably because it was written over such a long period of time, and yes, those are some of the more poorly-written parts of it rather than something that should be regarded as some sort of a universal standard. Just because your setting has magic in it doesn't mean that you can pull shit out of your ass and get away with it.

Just because he explained it doesn't make it logical. Best example are the amount of ring wraiths. Why did Sauron stop at 9 ring wraiths? Why were the numbers magically 3, 7 and 9? Why did the dwarf lords not turn into ring wraiths?
The answers about the destruction of the ring was obvious from the beginning. No one could be trusted with it. Yet there is no logical explanation about it's corruptive influence outside of "it's magic!". Also the powers it gave to the wielders were supposedly tied to their power somehow. Never really explained either, just that hobbits can magically disappear into thin air when putting it on. Isildur supposedly could disappear as well but wether other powers could have been available, no ones knows. No one even knows how it would have made them more powerful, just that would have been the case.

But the ring is something minor in comparison to for example Gandalf's magic in terms of plot tools and remaining being unexplained and mysterious. He is hailed as a great wizard. Yet despite this outside of being a learned man, which is just a scholarly thing, he barely does any kind of significant magic. In the Hobbit the most "wizardly" thing he did was throwing burning pine cones and calling for the eagles.
In the triology he does some magic fireworks, smoke rings, calls an eagle, some light and then somehow defeats the Balrog. Nothing is explained how magic is actually working and why it is only used when it is convinient. There is no consistency and no system behind it.
This is especially apparant when the book describes the feats of Saruman who collapses a mountain side on them for example. Supposedly this is becuase they are "in his domain" but that is all you get.

So sorry to break it to you but there are plenty of great works of litarature where magic is primarily used as a plot tool and as far as I know it was never a big deal. Just like Ciri's power.

 

[Lhynn]

we comparing TW3 to only CRPGs or every other genre?

At this point RPG basically comprises every game ever released.

 

[Sykar]

we comparing TW3 to only CRPGs or every other genre?

The pseudo criticism people express here are applicable to anything written if you have not noticed yet.

 

[pippin]

can't you just enjoy the tits

 

[pippin]

tfw no horny goat woman gf

 

[Carrion]

Really? So explain to me, what were the magic rules in the Tolkien books using nothing but the original triology and "The Hobbit".

You'd have to ask that from Tolkien, but it's beside the point. The reader does not need to know the full specifics — when you're dealing with magic it might even be counterproductive, seeing how a big part of magic's appeal lies in its occult, mysterious nature. What matters is that the reader sees the world as internally consistent all the way through. It doesn't matter that you don't know why there are exactly nine Ringwraiths. What would matter if you suddenly got a tenth Ringwraith, or there suddenly was a Ringwraith that was capable of shooting fireballs out of his fingertips.

Here's a very well-known quote from Tolkien that is originally about fairy tales but which reflects his views on fantasy as a whole:

Children are capable, of course, of literary belief, when the story-maker's art is good enough to produce it. That state of mind has been called "willing suspension of disbelief." But this does not seem to me a good description of what happens. What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful "sub-creator." He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is "true": it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside. If you are obliged, by kindliness or circumstance, to stay, then disbelief must be suspended (or stifled), otherwise listening and looking would become intolerable. But this suspension of disbelief is a substitute for the genuine thing, a subterfuge we use when condescending to games or make-believe, or when trying ... to find what virtue we can in the work of an art that has for us failed.

The ending of The Witcher 3 is the point where it loses me. It feels like the writers are adding new rules and rewriting definitions at the very end, contradicting what has been established earlier, and the sequence that plays out is not consistent with the Witcher world.

 

[Lambach]

The ending of The Witcher 3 is the point where it loses me. It feels like the writers are adding new rules and rewriting definitions at the very end, contradicting what has been established earlier, and the sequence that plays out is not consistent with the Witcher world.

As far as I know, what exactly the White Frost is was never properly explained either in the game or the books (allegedly it's Sapkowski's metaphor for climate change or some such), so there are really no definitions to change there. What happened in the end doesn't contradict any rules of the Witcher universe, because there are, from what I know at least, no rules on the WF.

But I agree that the "Ciri kills climate change with her sword or something" ending is pretty stupid and obviously rushed.