Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lancehead]

Ah okay, I thought you meant dialogue designed as a puzzle, not puzzle presented through dialogue.

 

[DraQ]

What is a "dialogue puzzle"? Is it something to solve for best results?

Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon:

Take the correct path - unlock the circle, get phat lewt.

Take the incorrect path - do not unlock the circle, do not get phat lewt.

Nigga, plz.

You had to be mentally impaired to pick wrong option in that if you had the stats.

Try something like Azrael's Tear, especially second conversation with

Spoiler

Tallum

.

 

[Grunker]

What is a "dialogue puzzle"? Is it something to solve for best results?

Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon:

Take the correct path - unlock the circle, get phat lewt.

Take the incorrect path - do not unlock the circle, do not get phat lewt.

Nigga, plz.

You had to be mentally impaired to pick wrong option in that if you had the stats.

Difficulty has nothing to do with my point.

 

[Mrowak]

Relax everybody, they'll probably add a toggle like in PE.

That's a retarded solution. the only reason those tags should even be there is to clarify the intention, when it is doubtful what a character could mean (which was the case in PS:T with [Truth], [Lie] tags). If they are there it means the dialogue is balanced entirely around them, so switching them off obscures the intention of the character unless they are written clearly. Even PS:T could not achieve this quality. :/

To use an analogy: before Hitman: Absolution was released fans whined about "Instict mode", allowing PC to use superpowah clue finder / enemy clairvoyance detection system, indentifying it as dumbing down. Devs answered: "no worries, you'll be able to turn that off". How did it turn out? Well, because the game was created from bottom up with Instict mode in mind all challenges and whole gameplay sections were based around it and were easy peasy. Now, when you turned the thing off, then you had two options:

a) become clairvoyant,
b) rote-learn NPC routines and behaviours by heart through save-scumming.

Needless to say the righteous ensued. It was a far cry from what previous games achieved and the way they were balanced.

So yeah, not pretty picture, ain'it it?

Laying that out on new Torment game the dialogues may become one of the three:

a) brainless exercise in stat-crunching and clicking the [I win] tag,
b) impossible exercise of discourse analysis "what my character really means to say, now?",
c) boring exercise in save-scumming to achieve optimal results.

 

[DraQ]

What is a "dialogue puzzle"? Is it something to solve for best results?

Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon:

Take the correct path - unlock the circle, get phat lewt.

Take the incorrect path - do not unlock the circle, do not get phat lewt.

Nigga, plz.

You had to be mentally impaired to pick wrong option in that if you had the stats.

Difficulty has nothing to do with my point.

As long as you also consider clicking on monsters to make them die a puzzle - no, it doesn't.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

What is a "dialogue puzzle"? Is it something to solve for best results?

Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon:

Take the correct path - unlock the circle, get phat lewt.

Take the incorrect path - do not unlock the circle, do not get phat lewt.

Nigga, plz.

You had to be mentally impaired to pick wrong option in that if you had the stats.

Difficulty has nothing to do with my point.

As long as you also consider clicking on monsters to make them die a puzzle - no, it doesn't.

The whole point is that you couldn't simply click through the dialogue, you needed to read and understand what was being said. Whether you want to consider this a puzzle or not is up to your individual brand of autism.

 

[Kaldurenik]

I like the fact that they wont write if its a skill check or not. This will make the player have to read / understand whats happening in the world / to the people/person he is talking to.

 

[Dreaad]

No tags is better. At least that way during your first play through you may not realize what specific roleplaying actions are due to your char build.

As for save scumming. You can't really blame the option for being there. If you feel the need to re load a save repeatedly to get the optimal result for maximum loot in combat or conversation or whatever, that is your choice. Don't blame the developer for your own lack of willpower. If you really are interested in playing out a specific role, save scumming should not be a problem.

 

[Roguey]

Speech checks aren't used to see if an NPC can successfully lie to you. Also, we've already designed in the era of invisible stat checks. They lead to players believing that their statistics actually have no effect on conversations. They literally don't know what they're missing.
...
I'd like to look into options to disable messages of that sort (skill checks, attribute checks, reputation gain and loss), but in practice I think many people will either a) not use them or b) use them only for immersion purposes and metagame around their absence.
...
I don't have any objections to optionally turning things off, but I have no illusions about how most people actually play these games vs. how they say they want to play them. I've been watching them do it and dealing with the aftermath for ~13 years.

Also see: the last quote in my sig.

 

[evdk]

Josh can sperg in P:E, this is a different game with a different focus.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I am determined to design my games around retards.

Thankfully P:E is mostly focused on combat, where Sawyer's theories on player behavioral patterns have a remote chance of being true.

 

[Roguey]

Josh can sperg in P:E, this is a different game with a different focus.

A focus on dialogue as win/loss. Boring.

 

[Grunker]

I've been watching them do it and dealing with the aftermath for ~13 years.

It's funny how Sawyer is the only one who has ever watched people betatest

Fargo has seen the same thing for 13 years but evidently thinks differently. Fargo doesn't have that engaging smile though, Roguey, does he?

 

[Roguey]

I've been watching them do it and dealing with the aftermath for ~13 years.

It's funny how Sawyer is the only one who has ever watched people betatest

Fargo has seen the same thing for 13 years but evidently thinks differently. Fargo doesn't have that engaging smile though, Roguey, does he?

Guess I wasn't clear enough.
"'Designer off in the clouds' generally only works out when the designer has a very solid technical understanding and focuses heavily on both gameplay mechanics and player experience. Most designers really couldn't give two shits about either."

 

[evdk]

Josh can sperg in P:E, this is a different game with a different focus.

A focus on dialogue as win/loss. Boring.

A focus on dialogue period. Awesome.

 

[Roguey]

Josh can sperg in P:E, this is a different game with a different focus.

A focus on dialogue as win/loss. Boring.

A focus on dialogue period. Awesome.

Might I recommend The Walking Dead?

 

[tuluse]

Guess I wasn't clear enough.
"'Designer off in the clouds' generally only works out when the designer has a very solid technical understanding and focuses heavily on both gameplay mechanics and player experience. Most designers really couldn't give two shits about either."

I don't think this applies to Torment. The designers seem very focused on player experience. They might be getting it wrong, but they are working on it.

 

[evdk]

Josh can sperg in P:E, this is a different game with a different focus.

A focus on dialogue as win/loss. Boring.

A focus on dialogue period. Awesome.

Might I recommend The Walking Dead?

I thought we were talking about games.

 

[Grunker]

I've been watching them do it and dealing with the aftermath for ~13 years.

It's funny how Sawyer is the only one who has ever watched people betatest

Fargo has seen the same thing for 13 years but evidently thinks differently. Fargo doesn't have that engaging smile though, Roguey, does he?

Guess I wasn't clear enough.
"'Most designers really couldn't give two shits about either."

Says Sawyer. Must be true then!

Nah man, I even agree with that sentiment actually. It's just so hilarious how you and Sawyer (well, mostly you) build your little bubbles of "no precedence." Everything anyone's ever done is shit, and all other designers are idiots. They didn't make some mistakes, or fucked up in some areas. They're just idiots. I don't even think Sawyer thinks this way, it's just your interpretation of him. Why would he be playing so much D&D otherwise?

Many people here think Planescape: Torment was the most awesome thing ever. Why exactly do you think anyone here would care that you don't think win/loss in dialogue or whatever is exciting when all they want is a dialogue-focused thing in the veins of the first game?

Josh can sperg in P:E, this is a different game with a different focus.

A focus on dialogue as win/loss. Boring.

A focus on dialogue period. Awesome.

Might I recommend The Walking Dead?

The Walking Dead doesn't feature player-driven dialogue. Your dialogue options matter 0.001% of the time. But then you knew the strawman was there the moment you clicked 'save changes.'

I've already let myself be drawn too much into your 'sperging or trolling or whatever it is for one night. Have fun

 

[Roguey]

Josh can sperg in P:E, this is a different game with a different focus.

A focus on dialogue as win/loss. Boring.

A focus on dialogue period. Awesome.

Might I recommend The Walking Dead?

I thought we were talking about games.

In the Torment thread?

 

[evdk]

Josh can sperg in P:E, this is a different game with a different focus.

A focus on dialogue as win/loss. Boring.

A focus on dialogue period. Awesome.

Might I recommend The Walking Dead?

I thought we were talking about games.

In the Torment thread?

This isn't the BTE? Oh my...

 

[Ninjerk]

Speech checks aren't used to see if an NPC can successfully lie to you. Also, we've already designed in the era of invisible stat checks. They lead to players believing that their statistics actually have no effect on conversations. They literally don't know what they're missing

Describing relevant statistics in character creation as having "effect on dialogue choices" wouldn't solve this?

 

[Delterius]

Speech checks aren't used to see if an NPC can successfully lie to you. Also, we've already designed in the era of invisible stat checks. They lead to players believing that their statistics actually have no effect on conversations. They literally don't know what they're missing

Describing relevant statistics in character creation as having "effect on dialogue choices" wouldn't solve this?

Personally? I wouldn't buy it. Not these days.

 

[Ninjerk]

From any developer's game?

 

[Delterius]

Well, it would depend on the developer in question's recent track record. I'm as optimistic about Kickstarter as one can get, but not even Shadowrun's been released yet, much less Wasteland 2 and Torment.