Thief fan missions and campaigns

[Unkillable Cat]

On the subject of TTLG-related drama, what went on last week about people trying to fix FMs that are broken in NewDark (ricebug) and how some people were trying to shut it down because "express permission" from the authors was required?

Dev_Anj took part in that discussion, and it led to voodoo47 finding a workaround that may lead to something cool.

 

[JarlFrank]

Wow. So, it's true that modders are crazy! And there I was, thinking at least the Thief community has only relatively sane people :D

 

[SCO]

Dev_Anj took part in that discussion, and it led to voodoo47 finding a workaround that may lead to something cool.

Don't be a tease, what is it. Patches? A repository/list of 'permitted to mod' fan missions? Wat?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

It's a small project at the moment, but voodoo47's solution is to

1) Identify troublematic FMs
2) Create small external files for them that lets TFix confer the changes WITHOUT altering the FM itself.

The "cool" part with this solution is that it sends any and all arguments about "author's consent" out the window as it doesn't change them at all.

In short, he's creating mods for mods.

 

[Yandros]

Just to clarify, TFix doesn't confer any changes really. We're talking DML files here, which are basically text files with instructions that NewDark looks for and applies when loading the mission. So all TFix is doing is copying them into the mission folder so they take effect. But yes, it is highly cool that we can fix missions without altering them in any way. DMLs have their limitations, but voodoo47 is definitely the master at figuring out how to fix problems using them, especially considering he is basically a newb at Dromed (or so he says).

 

[Melan]

It looks like the TTLG mods have deleted that thread, but my last comment was something along the lines of how he responds with narcissistic hostility towards anyone who criticizes his work, and anyway I got this lovely email in response:

The well goes deep!

 

[Karwelas]

I don't know how fucking high you must be to make comments like that. It is masterful troll or mad fucker.
I know only one thing. I want to get that thing that he use to get that high. It is better then everything.

By the way, Yandros. Who are you, people around seems to know you and you know a bit about Thief FMs, at least from our Catto messages.

 

[skacky]

The funniest thing is that his Unreal stuff looks like utter garbage. It's all over the place.

 

[Yandros]

I don't know how fucking high you must be to make comments like that. It is masterful troll or mad fucker.

Definitely the latter.

By the way, Yandros. Who are you, people around seems to know you and you know a bit about Thief FMs, at least from our Catto messages.

I've been making FMs since 2002. http://thiefmissions.com/search.cgi?search=yandros&sort=release&release=on#m
What are Catto messages?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I think he's referring to me with the "Catto" messages.

 

[Karwelas]

I think he's referring to me with the "Catto" messages.

Yep. That is what I mean. You are one of most active Thief Squad guys around, with Melan and Skacky. Welp - Thief Trio/Taffers Squad.
We totally should have group like that on 'dex.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I don't believe that's a fair comparison. Melan, skacky, Yandros and voodoo47 and others, all whom are registered on the Codex, create material for Thief 2.

I do not. In fact, some go as far as to say that I destroy Thief 2 material with my reviews.

I may be an active fan, and have done my part to keep the Thief discussion going here on the Codex, but I'm not in their league.

 

[Renault]

I've had a few run ins with Spiderman92/Iron Eagle/HawkFlyAway too, this guy is a certified nutjob. He threatened TTLG mods, called Lady Rowena a slut (among other things), ripped me new one, and a whole bunch of other nasty things in a series of PMs with me on the Eidos forums last year. When I ignored him, he started mass PMing me every day with "How are you today" or "What's going on Mike?" Over and over and over and over. Then when I fired back, he reported me to the mods. This guy is crazy in a huge way.

Re: Thief FMs, I'm playing through Heist Society right now, an FM for some reason that I've never got around to loading up It's fantastic, one of the best, if not THE best mansion FM out there. Highly recommended for new and old players.

Btw guys, I maintain a basic page on my site that lists all recent Thief files - missions, mods, and other stuff. It's here if you want to check it out. No ads or anything like that, it's just for fun:

http://www.southquarter.com/fms

 

[Yandros]

Mike, Heist Society is worth replaying on each difficulty eventually, we went to a lot of pains to make them all very different. Different starting point, side stories, conversations and bonus goals which are only on a single difficulty, etc. Hard to believe it's been 10 years on that one.

 

[Random_Taffer]

I may dig out the great email I once received from our boy Francesco. I don't see why he thinks his stuff is so good. If I understand what he's done correctly, he's actually just imported architecture from other engines and built little to none of it from scratch within the editor himself.
"Ooh let me import a map someone else made into another engine."
1337 skillz, brah.

 

[Yandros]

Ooohhhh, watch it boi, if he sees that trash talkin', he'll be emailing you a shiny new nastygram.

Yes, part of the problem with his T2 missions was they were full of meshes imported from TDS. So they looked fancy, but were a hollow shell, like the missions themselves.

 

[Renault]

He did release an original mission for T2, I haven't played it yet, but I've heard it's a tiny glimpse into his particular brand of crazy. Impossible to find switches, books without text, trial and error gameplay - play at your own risk.

http://www.southquarter.com/downloads/2014/The_Wall-St_Edgars_Cathedral_1.0.3.final.zip

Apparently he made death threats to some of the TTLG staff when he decided he didn't like some of the comments in the thread for his mission. Nobody was all that surprised.

 

[Random_Taffer]

For your entertainment, here are the emails from my brief communication with him. I don't even remember why he emailed me. I think it was because I said the mission he made was buggy.

Email 1:

Spoiler

Subject: hei son of bitch

hei figlio di troia vuoi vedere come vengo da te a romperti il culo?

(Google translate: hei motherfucker want to see how I come to you to break your ass ?)

hei bastard what fuck yuo want ? fucking asshole ?

yuor misison are just shitloads

son of bitch...

Response 1:

Spoiler

IronEagle,

Thanks for the email! It made me smile this morning.

In Lili's video interview of you, she asked you this question:
How do you feel when you release a fan-mission you made? Are you sensitive to criticism?

Your answer:
I accept a criticism only if it is constructive and only if the person knows what he is talking about. I studied in a serious and rigid school. I spent years reading books.

You really shouldn't take all the criticism so hard. The Thief community is very friendly and understanding and, for the most part, people were just trying to help you.

If you don't want any of your work to be criticized, then don't put it out on the internet. I can promise you that no matter how good it is, it doesn't really matter- at least one person is going to have a problem with it.

That being said, if you would like my honest opinion about it: honestly, I'm surprised it made it past the alpha testing phase because of all the bugs. Did you go straight to beta and then just ignore the feedback of your testers?

I thought some of the ideas were cool. The idea of there being a brotherhood of black (dark?) Hammerites and having to go explore an abandoned castle is really neat. It's just a shame that the story element was pretty much nonexistent from what I can tell. (All texts being the same book, blank scrolls, etc.)

The architecture of the castle when I came up out of the hole looked like it might have been pretty cool if it weren't for all the lag due to not optimizing the mission. From what I can tell it wasn't snapped to the grid... which leads me to believe that you may have imported the whole thing from another engine. Is that true?

Anyway, I hope you're doing well.

Cheers!

R_T

Email 2:

Spoiler

this is not critism just a breaking of balls

im not on a community. anymore im feeeto do that yandros blame

the mission is deeply betatestet, lol...yuor mind

yuo want play the alpha version with floating object ?

Response 2:

Spoiler

Yandros is a really good friend and a really good guy. I can promise that he had absolutely nothing to do with your banning. He's probably one of the most helpful and friendly people on all of TTLG.

How was it just breaking your balls? It was YOU who responded in a hostile fashion, thus causing a response. The comments were that the mission seemed to be sloppily put together. (Which didn't come from Yandros, by the way) Is that not true? People were not talking about your architecture, but the mission itself as a whole.

I keep hearing you talk about graphics, but a great Thief mission isn't just about graphics, textures, and architecture. Those are entirely secondary. They help "sell" the story. It's got to have a good story and be relatively playable in terms of frame-rate and bugs. As soon as I learned that the water had no sound it was hard for me to continue playing because it just rips me out of immersion, which is what Thief is all about for me. People don't play Thief for the graphics. If they did, they'd move on to other games. They play it for the story and gameplay.

If a mission looks good, but doesn't have good gameplay or is really buggy and void of story, it's like having a big pretty cake that's filled with sawdust. It looks good on the outside, but I wouldn't want to eat it.

Speaking of architecture, again I am curious... Did you or did you not import the castle architecture from another game/engine? It's hard for me to believe that you could build that thing by hand in dromed without snapping it to the grid.

No, I don't want to play the alpha version. No thank you. I've still got the version you released.

Email 3:

Spoiler

find 1 post of mien were i'm against yuor friend

yuo started with the wrong foot.me as yandros, im always kind with who is kind with me..

what he bug? the water? i know im working on
im improving the gameplay, yuo will change yuor mission is favour of my tastes ?

yuor mission have bug, i prefered betatester it by friends...and yuo have no idea how much time i spent on it , yeandros is presumptuos , more than me , my work , but he is not humble to say that...

but if yuo want deal with soemone yuo have t ostart gentle..rob i dont know yuo after all

the gameplay for me is too easy...it have puzzle in fact the people is stuck asking the game have a bot of humour...i know what im doing..

i found very offensise say " is not betatsted" is superfical. im a very expert guy on that.ad dont forget this is my first work , i managed to optimize adn get a full procession...just start with kidn manner and the other people respond with kindless

liek im respoing to you..but if yuo start to offend , this close the doors of communications

 

[Yandros]

So he basically imported a bunch of static meshes from TDS, didn't snap anything to grid or make a cohesive story, and then got pissed off when people complained about it even though he could play through it just fine. Besides finding bugs, the fact that your own mission is always easier for you to complete is one of the main reasons why you test it in the first place. I can't count all the times I grudgingly made something a little easier in a mission because the testers told me it was too obscure, too hard to figure out, too tough to ghost, or whatever. Their feedback in this area is golden when it comes to releasing a mission that the majority of players will enjoy.

I have his emails set to skip my Inbox and go into a folder, and I have to admit to checking it daily and being a bit disappointed he hasn't sent me anything new recently.

 

[JarlFrank]

Wow, that guy is a real piece of work. Perfect example for drama queen modder. Fucking awesome

 

[Karwelas]

This is drama worth of awesome Thief modders. One (fucked up) to rule them (awesome guys) all.

Spoiler

Lord of the Drama: Taffers and Nerds.

 

[JarlFrank]

Well, apart from that guy the Thief modding community is really among the saner groups of modders. TTLG is a bit too "enforced nice" sometimes, with criticism often being shouted down because it's "rude", and shitty design being defended (hey Unkillable Cat, wanna tell about Zontik's castle mission again?), but other than that there is little drama and modders generally seem to be mostly reasonable people who make missions for fun.

It's surprising there aren't more nutcases like that.

 

[Renault]

Agreed. The a-holes really stick out, mainly because there aren't that many. Same goes for the most part over at the Dark Mod forums. Their main issue, whether it's true or not, is that they feel they don't get enough respect from the Thief community. But I really like the forums there, mostly full of good, polite, intelligent people.

 

[Karwelas]

Move them on the 'dex for short time. It is like a bucket of cold ice, for everyone. HOwever, warn them that it may or may not affect their sanity, mods and personal live.

I wonder if they would like Prosper, he is also a modder after all.

 

[skacky]

At least Prosper produces "quality" content.