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Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Major_Blackhart, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. Major_Blackhart Codexia Lord Sodom Patron

    Major_Blackhart
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    Decided to play Wizardry 8 again since I'm bored. I've forgotten a good bit of info about the game though and need a question or 2 answered. When you change a class, from say psionic to priest or fighter or something, do you lose the previous bonuses that the class bestowed? For instance: Psionic to Priest, do you still have the mental immunity?
     
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  2. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    I never got around to changing professions in Wiz8, so I'm affraid I can't help you.
     
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  3. Nael Arcane

    Nael
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    You only lose special skills like say if you left Alchemist you'd no longer be able to mix potions, or if you were a Valkyrie you'd lose Cheat Death. You keep all spells and resistance stuff though.
     
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  4. dragonfk Erudite

    dragonfk
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    If you dont know the answer then why post?

    PS.
    Yeah, I am a hypocrite :lol:
     
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  5. cardtrick Arbiter

    cardtrick
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    Yes, you lose everything except skills and stats.

    Even worse, if you gained 10 levels of psionic and then switched to priest, going from level 1 to level 2 priest would cost as much as going from level 10 to 11 would if you had stayed single class (that is, experience costs don't reset when you multi-class).

    Unlike in previous Wizardries (apparently) and Wizards and Warriors, it makes very little sense to multi-class in Wizardry 8. There are some exceptions, though:

    Some people like to switch to rogue, monk, or ninja for 1 level sometime early on -- this lets you gain the Stealth skill, which adds to AC and can be extremely useful, especially for characters like Faerie Bishops with extremely limited armor choices. While classed as a ninja, monk, or rogue, they then go through "Stealth training" -- which consists of putting the characters to be trained in the front, going into continuous combat mode, and letting easy creatures like Roaches whack against you for ridiculously long periods of time.

    There are various tricks having to do with skills gained at 1st level. Depending on attribute scores and class, a character gains some skillpoints automatically at the first level they take in a class. I don't remember exactly how this works out (you could probably find more details in a FAQ or at Flamestryke's page), but if you're a hardcore min-maxer it's sometimes better to take a couple of first levels in other classes to improve your skills. I can't remember for sure, but I think that if you're making a multi-spellbook bishop it can be better to start a psionicist, then switch to mage for one level, and then to bishop at third level and stay there indefinitely. Again, don't quote me on that.

    And then there are some more sensible skill issues that can make multi-classing worthwhile. For example, if you want to make a priestly warrior dual-wielding maces, you're best off starting as a priest for 1 level, which gives you mace skill and two spell picks, and then switch to lord, which gives you dual wielding (but no mace skill). The spell picks aren't wasted, because after its 5th level (your 6th level overall) the lord class learns priest spells. (Of course, you're really better off going with a straight Valkyrie than any kind of Lord, but that's a different issue.)

    Finally, some classes sort of run out of steam after a while, and it can make sense to switch. For example, once you hit level 18 in bard and have 100 music skill, all instruments can be played. One of my favorite Wiz8 characters starts as a bard putting all stat points into strength and vitality, and all skill points into swords, close combat, and music. The vitality points result in plenty of stamina for playing instruments, and of course strength and vitality make this character a good tank. You'll be using Bloodlust to give you a berserk attack, and can play songs when enemies are at range (so the sword being cursed isn't a problem at all). Once you hit level 18, your Bard abilities are completely maxed out -- so at that point you switch to fighter, and stay there for the rest of the game. Now you no longer need to use Bloodlust to berserk, and you essentially have a high level fighter with great tanking stats, who (just by the way) can play every instrument in the game. This character is invaluable in the beginning (Bards rule early) and in the end of the game, when having a good fighter with a good sword is fantastic, and remains quite good throughout the midgame. Similarly, pure magic users (including bishops) have access to all spells by level 18, so if you were careful to save spell picks and make good use of books for low level spells, it's possible to have essentially reached the end of the class's usefulness by that point. One good option is a Faerie bishop who switches to ninja around level 18 or so -- maxed magic capabilities, and access to the Cane of Corpus, the best weapon in the game.

    So, to summarize -- multi-classing is kind of complicated and not generally useful. However, it has some very specific uses and if you're smart about it can be a very powerful tool.
     
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  6. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    Postcount++

    Duh.
    :wink:
     
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  7. nik2008ofs Scholar

    nik2008ofs
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    Oh, now I see!
     
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  8. Fat Dragon Arbiter

    Fat Dragon
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    Wizardry 4 is a bitch.

    Played this game for the first time a few days ago. I'm not very far in it, but so far it's been one incredibly tough motherfucker. The very beginning alone was an absolute bitch with trying to find that hidden door by using the light spell. I still enjoy having to map out the levels like in the other games, but it seems to be even more difficult to do in this game. Right now I'm stuck on a part with what seems to be an invisible mine field. After finally making my way through it (after about 15 tries) I ran into a group of enemies and died. That pissed me off so much I just had to quit for the day.

    So, just how much harder does this game get?
     
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  9. Jasede Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Jasede
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    I am not joking.

    Wizardry IV is the hardest CRPG (western) ever made.

    It is extremely difficult but very satisfying. It also has maybe the hardest puzzles ever and if you can win it without a walkthrough I'll worship you; it's so damn hard.

    You'll never find the Grandmaster Ending though.

    When I said it is the hardest, I actually meant it. You will not find a more difficult RPG that is -intentionally- that difficult (and not because of balancing mistakes or bugs).
     
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  10. Fat Dragon Arbiter

    Fat Dragon
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    Why's that? Is it broken, or is it just that goddamned hard?

    Haven't needed a walkthrough yet, but it's a pretty goddamned tempting option, especially during the game's beginning. More than likely I'll soon come across a part that will break me, forcing me to look for a walkthrough.
     
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  11. Jasede Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Jasede
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    I don't want to spoil anything, except that the game has five endings, and all of them are so hard to get to that the game was, after initial release, only sold bundled with a tiny guidebook covering the bare essentials.

    It's supposed to leave you puzzling; the game is intentionally hard and a real challenge. If you can beat it, you have beaten the genre RPG.
     
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  12. Sir_Brennus Scholar

    Sir_Brennus
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    You seem quite adamant in your opinion - and I tend to agree, but I've witnessed debates about the idea that WizardsCrown/EternalDagger or KnightsofLegend rival Wiz4 in difficulty.
     
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  13. Jasede Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Jasede
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    I am not as hardcore oldskool as I like to pretend; I never heard of those.
     
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  14. mirrorshades Liturgist

    mirrorshades
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    Seriously... Wizard's Crown?

    Nah. Not hard. The tactical combat could be kind of tricky, and there was a lot of complex stuff that you had to pay attention to (i.e. is my character wounded and/or bleeding; did any weapons get damaged/destroyed in that last fight; how far ahead of the group should I station my pointman; that kind of thing) but once you got the hang of it all, it made sense.

    Never got to play Eternal Dagger... I don't think it's out there for PC and I haven't tried to find it via emulator. I really liked WC, though, so maybe I'll give it a look.
     
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  15. Flux_Capacitor Augur

    Flux_Capacitor
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    Wizard's Crown's combat engine was the basis for the Gold Box one, but strangely, was considerably more complex. The end was hell. Or rather, returning to town after getting the crown was hell. There was, literally, a combat for every two tiles you moved. You were a *long* way from town, and combat took a *long* time (unless you used the auto combat). Plus, you couldn't rest outside of town.

    I've played Knights of Legend, but never got around to completing it. The combat was quite tactical, and pretty fun. I think I only finished five or six of the missions, but I don't recall it being terribly difficult. Maybe it got harder later on.
     
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  16. Fat Dragon Arbiter

    Fat Dragon
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    I've only ever played Wizard's Crown. It was a pretty good tactical game and was a rather detailed game for it's time. It could get pretty goddamn hard at times, but I don't think it's as hard as Wizardry 4. I've always wanted to play WC's sequel Eternal Dagger, but never got around to it. I may try to find a DOS version once I'm done with Wizardry 4.

    You should give Wizard's Crown a try, it's a good game. Shouldn't be too hard to find a DOS download.

    Never heard of this Knights of Legend game, though.
     
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  17. Mareus Magister

    Mareus
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    Never played Wizardry 4, although I think I have it somewhere at home. Or is it Wizardry 6? Hmm nevermind. The thing I really hate in some old games is that they are just too damn hard. Chalanging is fine with me, but what is the point of playing a game that is so hard you have to load every few minutes. It kills all the immersion. This may be offtopic a bit, but isn't loading the same as cheating? I know you have to load sometimes, but using save/load function as a strategy to finish the game is a big turn of for me.
     
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  18. Fat Dragon Arbiter

    Fat Dragon
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    That's what I love about so many of these older games. They're hard as fuck, and they do a great job of really putting your skills to the test. Still, a lot of the old games aren't as hard as a lot of people make them out to be; it's just that they usually require far more patience, thought, and skill than most games being made nowdays.

    No, loading isn't the same as cheating. For a game like Wizardry 4 for example, it becomes a pretty normal thing very quickly due to a lot of the trial-and-error parts in the game.
     
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  19. Mareus Magister

    Mareus
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    I really fail to see the fun in using save/load strategy to finish the game. There is no challange in it, because it is only the matter of tries before you manage to win. It is like playing chess and using save/load tactic whenever things turn to shit for you. For me there is no challenge in this, because I know I will win even if I suck big time. Just load and try again, and again, and again, and again until you win. I have no problem with difficult puzzles, but when the combat is so hard you have to load 20 times just to move few meters, than I think it kills the fun and immersion.

    I don't understand how can this be fun. I like difficult battles and I like losing if I suck, but the thing I hate is losing even when I know I didn't do anything wrong. For example inBaldur's Gate which is in my oppinion one of 5 best games ever made, there is a magic called imprisonment. There is no save vs spell against that magic and it ends your game immedietly if you get struck by it. Hard? No just stupid, because you can fight perfect and still lose in the end. If it happens few times it's not a big deal, but if the whole game is like that, I really cannot enjoy it.

    PS. I know you have berserk mode and freedom spell, but there was one guy who could remove the berserk mode and then he shot the imprisnment spell -> instant death. I think he was some lich near the end of Baldur's Gate 2. Now, i think it was a bug because i think there are no spells that can remove berserk mode, so it's not a big deal, but imagine the whole game was like this. It would ruin a lot of fun. Also if you want challanging but not stupid hard like some older games, try playing BG trilogy without saving or loading, unless you need to rest. I managed to finish it with just 3 or 4 loads. Now that was really difficult but also fun.
     
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  20. Jasede Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Jasede
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    Maybe you had to grow up with them, Mareus.
     
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  21. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron Developer

    JarlFrank
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    Yes. Nostalgia helps you to look over many little things that you would consider shitty design nowadays.
     
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  22. nik2008ofs Scholar

    nik2008ofs
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    It's called real life. Not that there is a reason for games to be like that, of course.

    I do agree though, struggling to prevail against impossible odds in a game is for kids. A man knows the difference between a challenge worth meeting and a masochistic waste of time, and many old games cross the line toward the latter.
     
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  23. Fez Erudite

    Fez
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    It can help if you replay the games again now to see how they weathered, but it can still be somewhat rose-tinted due to the memories.
     
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  24. Binary Liturgist

    Binary
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    I somewhat agree with Jasede that Wizardry 4 is most likely the hardest cRPG ever done.

    There are strong contenders (Might and Magic 1, Bard's Tale 2, Wizardry 3,...) but there's some psychological factor on Wizardry 4 that pushes it beyond the hardest of the hardest - defeat the heroes so that evil can triumph!
     
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  25. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron Developer

    JarlFrank
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    And you don't even recieve experience for killing all those mobs that attack you! This makes it even harder as your char won't be rewarded as often as in other RPGs.
     
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