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Community The New World Design Poll #2: RNG

Discussion in 'RPG News & Content' started by Infinitron, May 30, 2018.

  1. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Tigranes
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    Serpent in the Staglands Torment: Tides of Numenera
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    In that case, your THC should be 100%, or possibly 95% as a cap. i.e. the skill gains should get you there. I don't think there's any benefit to getting it to 80% then fudging the rolls so the player doesn't cry when they miss.

    THC-based games have, in general, always had plenty of ways to mitigate the risks, anyway. You often have many ways to raise your THC, temporary raises, lower enemies' AC, so on and so forth. Rarely are you playing the entire game missing more often than you hit. So this isn't a new point either.

    'Encouraging save scumming' is not really a major problem for me either. If people want to waste their lives reloading a video game every milisecond, so be it.

    I just don't see any great reason to lie about the THC here, only a possible argument for making it easier to achieve very high THC or to get rid of THC altogether.
     
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  2. Shadenuat Arcane

    Shadenuat
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    Maybe add some gaming the system as perks abilities and upgrades.

    Lucky shot: gain massive % based bonus to hit and critical chance, but it's like X-com and capped at 95%, so can still miss
    Aiming shots: as long as you target same enemy and (maybe) he holds position, every next shot improves chance to hit up to 100%, with averages in favor of the player
    Spray and pray: character makes 3 shots at short range instead of one with lower accuracy and damage, so he rolls 3 dice instead of 1 - more dice = better averages.

    As for "all dudes in position enemy is blinded stunned flanked... miss miss miss" maybe allow 100% chance to hit, really. Like some effects scrapping enemies' dodge chance completely.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
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  3. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    Update:

    1) We'll make limiting consecutive misses optional. It seems to be the best way to handle it. This limit will apply to enemies as well, so it won't make the game easier.

    2) What's left to determine is whether or not your THC is merely a roll modifier or does 80% THC actually guarantee you that you'll hit 8 out of 10 or 16 out of 20 or 24 out of 30.
     
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  4. Rinslin Merwind Educated

    Rinslin Merwind
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    That's awesome in my opinion, ability to choose options is always awesome.

    Now that's a hard question, I can't even say it right now.

    Answer to Felix:
    Show Spoiler
    And you patient 0 of this "virus of stupidity" which make you think that you somehow superior to other people only because your gaming tastes and you pick every "chance" to prove yourself "smart and hardcore gamer" while sucking your own cock. The only place where society is degrade since october 1917 it's your country, mr Vatnik.
    *grabs popcorn while while waiting for pseudo-patriotic hysteria*
     
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  5. trais Arcane

    trais
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    Good decision.

    Easiest solution is usually the best one, especially when coding and debugging is involved.

    I thought some more about the problem of long miss-steaks and I've found two ideas that could work without being insulting to player's intelligence.

    First one comes from my experience in boxing. I've noticed that the longer I spar with same opponent, the easier it gets to hit him. It's because after while, I can see what his favorite/most used blocks and dodges are, and can adjust my punches or combos accordingly. So to translate it to numbers:
    after miss, you add e.g. quarter of previous THC to the next roll. So after you've missed 70% shot, next one will be displaying 70+17=87%. If you still miss that, 87+22=109 or 100%, making it a guaranteed hit.

    Simple to code, simple to debug, somewhat realistic, doesn't hide anything from the player.



    Second one is what I wrote earlier: reward players for enduring bad luck. It could work like this: it triggers when your character reach some level of "improbable" bad luck, either as a single event or a series of mishaps. Let's say this level is 3% probability. So missing 3 times in a row of 70% THC - 30%^3 = 2,7% would trigger, as would missing singe 97% THC shot.

    When such thing happens player's character can be rewarded with some minor, but permanent buff. E.g. flat +1% THC to every attack roll, or flat +1% to dodge or some XP or equivalent. Minor enough not to completely imbalance the game, but something tangible to sugarcoat the bitter pill. You can call it "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" buff.
     
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  6. Elwro Arcane Patron

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    I hope I will have something definite to add later, but just to fuel the discussion let me mention the following quote from de Finetti, given in https://www.jstor.org/stable/2683902?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents :

    Perhaps long-run calibration is an additional empirical requirement of a good appraiser. de Finetti explicitly addressed this situation in his discussion of "Frequency and 'Wisdom After the Event'" (1974, sec. 5.9). He insisted that observed differences between frequencies and assessed probabilities cannot be conceived as critical of the validity of subjective assessments, for the assessments are merely representative of the assessor's uncertainty at the time that they are specified.​
     
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  7. Fenix Liturgist Vatnik

    Fenix
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    THC system can look silly at best in melee combat.
    While for ranged combat where you have some point - a shooter - and a vector outgoing from that point that should cross with another point - this feel absolutely natural and not silly at all.
    Maybe we need combined system where we have no-THC system for melee and THC-based fro ranged, dunno.

    People can do that themself with old grandpa's methods.

    What make me think that I'm superior to some other people is I'm really superior in certain respects, and that's not a virus, that's a brain.
    I was upset too when I missed like that in game - but I have brain and reflection, you know called emotional intellect.
    So I'm aware that such cases is a part of the game, and these emotions are actually irrational.
    With same success you can curse the rain and wind, or your ass because you need to wipe it every time you shitting.
     
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  8. LordWildMan Novice

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    I think it has been brought up here, but you could use pseudorandom chance, like DOTA or other multiplayer games. If you have 70% chance to hit, and you miss the first attack, the second attack actually has a higher % chance to hit than 70%. This increases the more misses there are in a row; the same for hits. This results not only in a resulting population distribution that is what the player expects, but also if you look at a very small consecutive sample size, say 4 attacks, that very small consecutive sample size has a distribution that is comparable to the population.
     
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  9. Brancaleone Learned

    Brancaleone
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    The poll is missing the "Yes, as long as I never find out" option.
     
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  10. Niektory one of some Patron

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    IIRC there are 10 "cards". Each of them represents 10% of the full roll range (1-100):
    Card 1: Rolls between 1 and 10
    Card 2: Rolls between 11 and 20
    Card 3: Rolls between 21 and 30
    and so on. So if you roll 24 for example, you can't roll the numbers between 21 and 30 again until the "deck" reshuffles, which happens after 10 rolls.

    Anyway, under this system, it might be more fitting not to call it "To Hit Chance", but rather "Hit Frequency" (because it reduces the chance aspect to achieve a desired frequency of hits).
     
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  11. Shadenuat Arcane

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    One other funny thing you can make to turn bad thing into positive is to make npc/companion react to RNG.
    Companion missed 3 times in a row "what the fuck is going on with this garbage rifle"
     
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  12. Mr. Hiver Learned

    Mr. Hiver
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    It was good to see there are options on how to actually improve this part of mechanics. Ive no special interest in New World but the issue interests me by itself.

    To me, its not about missing, even at higher probabilities, but that the current system produces or tends to produce lousy distorted results too often. If im preaching about evolution and improvement of rpg mechanics, then this is one example of it. There are also interesting things to consider about how probabilities work in reality.

    :updatedmytxt: for future references.
     
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  13. Jim The Dinosaur II Prophet

    Jim The Dinosaur II
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  14. Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss Magister Patron

    Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    :bravo:
     
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  15. Latelistener Arbiter

    Latelistener
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    Why not just increase chances to hit with each consecutive miss?
    I heard Hard West is using somewhat similar system: you gain Luck when you get hit and lose it when you evade.
     
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  16. lukaszek Arcane

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    you missed the part of it being pure incline and having no RNG involved
     
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  17. HeatEXTEND Arbiter

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    If you end up going the guarantee route, please add an option to switch to roll-mode. Just add a slider. It doesn't actually need to do anything, I'd appreciate it anyway :shittydog:
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  18. Lurker47 Learned

    Lurker47
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    I don't even really understand why most RNG is still a thing.
     
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  19. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Tigranes
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    VD this really must make it in
     
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  20. Fenix Liturgist Vatnik

    Fenix
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    What do you mean?
    Randomness is a different approach.
    It's that same as say "why everybody don't love potato".
     
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  21. HeatEXTEND Arbiter

    HeatEXTEND
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  22. Darth Roxor Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis

    Darth Roxor
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    because you are dumb
     
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  23. lukaszek Arcane

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    do not belittle those who saw the light and can foresee bright future ahead
     
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  24. Lurker47 Learned

    Lurker47
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    I'd just like to see more combat systems in RPG's experiment with a complete lack of RNG.
    I guess.
     
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  25. HeatEXTEND Arbiter

    HeatEXTEND
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    There's this one tactical TBS game (classes, no stats)
    Show Spoiler
    [​IMG]
     
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