The New DOOM Thread (2016)

[pippin]

Doom's Element X was having the two perfect masterminds: John Romero and John Carmack (plus all the invaluable support frorm the great id crowd). Ying and Yang. Thesis and Antithesis. This, sadly, seems to be an alien concept when most games are spearheaded by one creative mind, or, even worse, by a crowd of yes wo/men. Doom is a product of its era and won't be repeated, because id put a name on the "Doom thing" where there was only a hole before. Now the hole has been filled and everything seems like decline because we won't be surprised anymore. The early 90s were THE era to be a gamer, console and/or pc.

 

[toroid]

To elaborate, every aspect of Doom is hand-crafted, polished to perfection, and has character.

The reason I asked the person I asked is because I want his take on the matter. Hell, you were on the BD vs Doom thread, you should understand that's not the answer or even the type of answer I'm looking for.

Can I not just shit on Bethesduh FUCK

 

[Alfons]

Can I not just shit on Bethesduh FUCK

Sure you can buddy. You can even do it without quoting my posts.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Getting the Doom formula right is VERY difficult. The problem is that developers don't get the formula at all, and this ought to be the easy part.

And what is the formula? I saw you shitting on posts left and right in the BD vs Doom thread, but I don't think I ever saw you actually elaborate on what Doom is actually about.

The formula is good shooting mechanic synergizing with great level design leading to non-stop action awesomeness.

The difficult part isn't the formula though, but its execution. Apparently anyway, since lots of devs don't seem to get the formula at all, which is what i find baffling, as i said.

 

[Decado]

It is not like the Doom formula is hard to figure out. What the fuck is so difficult about getting it right?

Yeah it's only a classic game that's being modded to this day while dozens of others failed to recapture its fun value and popularity. Just how hard is to recreate that, amirite

I think you are confusing the "Doom Formula" with "Doom." I would argue that Heretic got the Doom formula just right, but it isn't as good a game as Doom (for various reasons). Doom 3 failed to get the Doom formula right, because they went for horror instead of action. Doom is all about action, not realism, not crouch and peeking around corners, not a limited stash of weapons, not cheap scares. It is about mowing down hordes -- HORDES -- of demon zombies with a cool soundtrack in the background and almost no story.

ETA: This is probably a blog post worthy area of writing, I bet a person could write 10,000 words on this shit.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I think you are confusing the "Doom Formula" with "Doom." I would argue that Heretic got the Doom formula just right, but it isn't as good a game as Doom (for various reasons). Doom 3 failed to get the Doom formula right, because they went for horror instead of action. Doom is all about action, not realism, not crouch and peeking around corners, not a limited stash of weapons, not cheap scares. It is about mowing down hordes -- HORDES -- of demon zombies with a cool soundtrack in the background and almost no story.

ETA: This is probably a blog post worthy area of writing, I bet a person could write 10,000 words on this shit.

That more accurately describes "arena with enemy waves" type shooters like Painkiller and Serious Sam actually. Level design in Doom (one it's greatest strengths) is absolutely nothing like those games.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Doom is a product of its era and won't be repeated, because id put a name on the "Doom thing" where there was only a hole before. Now the hole has been filled and everything seems like decline because we won't be surprised anymore. The early 90s were THE era to be a gamer, console and/or pc.

It's not that everything seems like decline compared to Doom but the fact that modern (post 2005) shooters are by and large fucking terrible. Plenty of FPS games that came after Doom were terrific and genre classics in their own right - Quake, Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior, Blood, Unreal, Half-Life, RTCW, FEAR (for its gunplay alone), hell even 2009 Wolfenstein was solid.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm rather fond my of "RPG theory of Doom". Doom was essentially a dungeon crawler with the traditional RPG "statty" elements stripped out and replaced with shooting. It was designed by people who played D&D and were familiar with the art of dungeon design (Romero himself even worked on the C64 port of Might & Magic II). It had mazes, monsters and power-ups.

In general, a lot of the traits of early first person shooters make a lot more sense when you realize they were developed with that context and mindset.

 

[Gragt]

There is obviously a link. As you said, they were all D&D fans and Romero has always been a big admirer of the Ultima series. So it’s normal to find similarities in their games. Doom plays very much like a dungeon crawler in first-person, with a strong emphasis on the action, no stats, and arcade elements, but you still encounter some puzzles and traps, and often the biggest enemy isn’t the monsters you face but the maze you travel through. And Heretic closed the gap a bit more later with a more traditional fantasy setting, and that’s fitting because Raven’s first game, Black Crypt, was a Dungeon Master clone and the next, Shadow Caster, can probably best be described as a Wolfenstein 3D clone with some RPG elements. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that these two companies started a collaboration that lasted for decades and ended up producing the same type of games.

 

[shihonage]

I think you are confusing the "Doom Formula" with "Doom." I would argue that Heretic got the Doom formula just right, but it isn't as good a game as Doom (for various reasons). Doom 3 failed to get the Doom formula right, because they went for horror instead of action. Doom is all about action, not realism, not crouch and peeking around corners, not a limited stash of weapons, not cheap scares. It is about mowing down hordes -- HORDES -- of demon zombies with a cool soundtrack in the background and almost no story.

ETA: This is probably a blog post worthy area of writing, I bet a person could write 10,000 words on this shit.

Heretic and Hexen are classics in their own right, even though both are lesser "Doom" games. Heretic's weapons and monsters do not go together as perfectly well as did Doom's. But they both have great atmosphere, and Hexen has evil fucking puzzles and non-linear travel between levels.

 

[Decado]

I think you are confusing the "Doom Formula" with "Doom." I would argue that Heretic got the Doom formula just right, but it isn't as good a game as Doom (for various reasons). Doom 3 failed to get the Doom formula right, because they went for horror instead of action. Doom is all about action, not realism, not crouch and peeking around corners, not a limited stash of weapons, not cheap scares. It is about mowing down hordes -- HORDES -- of demon zombies with a cool soundtrack in the background and almost no story.

ETA: This is probably a blog post worthy area of writing, I bet a person could write 10,000 words on this shit.

Heretic and Hexen are classics in their own right, even though both are lesser "Doom" games. Heretic's weapons and monsters do not go together as perfectly well as did Doom's. But they both have great atmosphere, and Hexen has evil fucking puzzles and non-linear travel between levels.

The first Hexen was a brutally difficult fucking game. I was lucky enough to get the hint/walkthrough guide with the game, because otherwise I don't know that I would have been able to beat it. The puzzles were fucking insane.

 

[pippin]

A door has opened.... somewhere...

 

[shihonage]

I beat probably 70% of Hexen in co-op over modem with my buddy. Back before Internet guides

 

[Lyric Suite]

I think you are confusing the "Doom Formula" with "Doom." I would argue that Heretic got the Doom formula just right, but it isn't as good a game as Doom (for various reasons). Doom 3 failed to get the Doom formula right, because they went for horror instead of action. Doom is all about action, not realism, not crouch and peeking around corners, not a limited stash of weapons, not cheap scares. It is about mowing down hordes -- HORDES -- of demon zombies with a cool soundtrack in the background and almost no story.

ETA: This is probably a blog post worthy area of writing, I bet a person could write 10,000 words on this shit.

Heretic and Hexen are classics in their own right, even though both are lesser "Doom" games. Heretic's weapons and monsters do not go together as perfectly well as did Doom's. But they both have great atmosphere, and Hexen has evil fucking puzzles and non-linear travel between levels.

The first Hexen was a brutally difficult fucking game. I was lucky enough to get the hint/walkthrough guide with the game, because otherwise I don't know that I would have been able to beat it. The puzzles were fucking insane.

Scrub. I beat Hexen just fine and didn't need no stinking guide.

Heretic was a good game but it failed to capture the real essence of Doom. So Raven went to a different direction, with great results. And i very much doubt we'll ever see something like that ever again.

 

[Decado]

I think the level sizes were too much for me. I had gone from a relatively shitty Tandy 1000 HX machine, to a 486. So I was inundated with "new" technology and games. I remember being so overwhelmed with the first Eye of the Beholder game, like, whaaaaaaa????

 

[Gragt]

I think the level sizes were too much for me. I had gone from a relatively shitty Tandy 1000 HX machine, to a 486. So I was inundated with "new" technology and games. I remember being so overwhelmed with the first Eye of the Beholder game, like, whaaaaaaa????

Heh, that’s a good point. And we went back full circle: give Eye of the Beholder to the current average gamer and he will go whaaaaa? except that now games like that are are the exception and not the norm.

 

[Derek Larp]

Doom is like the Citizen Kane of ego shooters.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I've beaten countless games single-handedly, without any assistance, that stumped dozens of others. Sometimes even in a single seating. But Hexen - Hexen stumped me for a few tries, for at least a year. Not because it was tough, but because the first hub is a clusterfuck to navigate. You have to go back and forth countless times just to progress anywhere.

But once I finally cleared that first hub, I rolled up the rest of the game as I tend to do things. The endboss took a couple of attempts, though.

That first hub is a bitch, and Hexen can present a challenge, as best evidenced by the Aeons of Death mod for Doom - a mod that throws in enemies and weapons from many FPS games. Hexen's Heresiarch (and a similar variation boss baddie) are a PAIN to kill, even with dozens of weapons at your command.

 

[retardation]

You can hand in your gamer card at the exit.

To be fair tho, Barons of Hell ARE boring - they're slow as shit, their attack is slow and easily telegraphed, etc. The only thing that makes them even remotelly dangerous is the fact they're massive bullet sponges who are disproportionally resistant compared to their menace.

Well, they ARE barons. You can't easily destroy a baron.

 

[Ninja Destroyer]

You can hand in your gamer card at the exit.

To be fair tho, Barons of Hell ARE boring - they're slow as shit, their attack is slow and easily telegraphed, etc. The only thing that makes them even remotelly dangerous is the fact they're massive bullet sponges who are disproportionally resistant compared to their menace.

Well, they ARE barons. You can't easily destroy a baron.

 

[taxalot]

A new AAA Doom will not work. The so hotly debated formula is more something that an indie studio would come out with. It's over.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

A new AAA Doom will not work. The so hotly debated formula is more something that an indie studio would come out with. It's over.

Let's face it.
"Old", but working concepts won't be used or executed without a fair share of dumbing down or "modernizing" because they're, well, "old and won't sell".
New, fresh but unproven concepts won't be used, because "unless there's a game that uses this concept and it sells like hot cakes, there's no market for this".
Proven concepts (even is they're shitty) will be used until there's a better concept (aka "concept that sells") or until industry dies.

No one will do anything right until some AAA studio with balls will do it right and receives gazillions $$$, but that won't happen, because their publisher/marketing department will can the project because of "lack of demand". If indies prove it, AAA studios and publishers will most likely ignore it because "lol these basement nerds, what the fuck do they know about gayming".

The best option in this case? Look for similar games released in the 90-s/early 2000-s or look for graphical enhancements/mods for existing games.
This way you'll have something to play until your cock starts rotting and you'll die of cancer.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

How do you dumb something dumb as Doom further down?

 

[GrainWetski]

How do you dumb something dumb as Doom further down?

 

[shihonage]

Also, see: Half-Life. It started the retarded trend of the scripted shooter and decreasing level complexity for the sake of story.