The New DOOM Thread (2016)

[Astral Rag]

 

[DraQ]

How the fuck do you even aim and shoot without the mouse in SS1?
Or interact with the environment, reload, swap ammo, throw 'nades, drop items, etc?

 

[Fowyr]

How the fuck do you even aim and shoot without the mouse in SS1?
Or interact with the environment, reload, swap ammo, throw 'nades, drop items, etc?

That it is the question!
I intended to answer it. So I fired SS1 and could not find a key to "double-click" or move mouse cursor. There are a lot of useful keys, though, and I remember using a lot of them. Tab - quick cycling of weapons, for example.
install.exe don't had any input options, input options in game were just mouse parameters and unavailable joistick menu.
So I removed mouse driver from memory. Bingo! I lost mouse cursor in the game!
Thus, CyberP most probably is wrong.
And then I found SS1 manual in my library.

NOTE: System Shockis primarily a mouse-driven game, although you can also use keyboard commands to
move. Joystick and Cyberman are also supported. (See p. 45 for alternate controls.)

System Shocksupports both joysticks and Cyberman devices. You still need to use a mouse for some things,
such as picking up objects and manipulating your Inventory. However both devices are useful for moving
around in the game.

Oh nigga, you are shitting me...

 

[DraQ]

The Human Revolution lead had everyone play DX1 before they started on the game.

And they still failed by going for formulaic, neatly segregated paths rather than letting everything flow more organically.
It was a really good game, but DX1 it was not, especially in terms of levels.

They would have to have not just played DX1 but played *with* DX1, learning how everything was put together and worked together for that to work.

Sure but at least they tried (and not *every* level is so segregated, the police station at the beginning is well done).

True but most of the time you had distinct stealth route and distinct aug-specific routes.

Either they wanted to cut down on development time by attempting to invent a more modular approach or individual team members had rather clear idea of individual paths through DX1 but without understanding how they intertwined.

How the fuck do you even aim and shoot without the mouse in SS1?
Or interact with the environment, reload, swap ammo, throw 'nades, drop items, etc?

That it is the question!
I intended to answer it. So I fired SS1 and could not find a key to "double-click" or move mouse cursor. There are a lot of useful keys, though, and I remember using a lot of them. Tab - quick cycling of weapons, for example.
install.exe don't had any input options, input options in game were just mouse parameters and unavailable joistick menu.
So I removed mouse driver from memory. Bingo! I lost mouse cursor in the game!
Thus, CyberP most probably is wrong.
And then I found SS1 manual in my library.

NOTE: System Shockis primarily a mouse-driven game, although you can also use keyboard commands to
move. Joystick and Cyberman are also supported. (See p. 45 for alternate controls.)

System Shocksupports both joysticks and Cyberman devices. You still need to use a mouse for some things,
such as picking up objects and manipulating your Inventory. However both devices are useful for moving
around in the game.

Oh nigga, you are shitting me...

Butthurt in 3.. 2.. 1..
CyberP ?

 

[CyberP]

If I'm wrong then I won't be butthurt as I stand for truth. I'm not a codexer . I could've sworn all the numkeys work as an alternative to mouse (even for interface navigation), but I'm not an expert on SS1. I much prefer its sequel.

 

[shihonage]

fuck that loser

 

[DraQ]

I much prefer its sequel.

I'm of two minds here. On one hand SS2 is overall a much better experience due to far superior atmosphere.
On the other in any area that isn't a novel, SS2 exclusive gameplay element (other than weapon skills - those suck, and cyberspace - it's awful) SS1 completely thrashes SS2's ass.

 

[CyberP]

I know full well you are a hater of SS2's RPG systems. I really like them. Back off, homeboy.
They are definitely anti-simulational, and perhaps could have been done with sim design in mind without being worse, maybe even better, but I really appreciate them as they stand.

Other aspects of SS2 gameplay exclusivity such as alt fire modes, weapon modding, security systems that spawn in death should you be spotted, the research system and so on are excellent also. I really miss the usual Looking Glass depth in SS1, although there's still certainly plenty enough.

I'm of two minds here. On one hand SS2 is overall a much better experience due to far superior atmosphere.

Don't be silly, there's far more than that. Simply being able to see clearly is nice, for instance

 

[DraQ]

I know full well you are a hater of SS2's RPG systems.

Only weapon skills. And I would be perfectly happy with different implementation of them - for example splitting maintenance skill between them and making them affect weapon degradation rate.

Other aspects of SS2 gameplay exclusivity such as alt fire modes, weapon modding, security systems that spawn in death should you be spotted, the research system and so on are excellent also.

Also PSI and weapon degradation. I explicitly excluded SS2 only features like these.

OTOH SS1 had cybernetic rig as an actual gameplay point (cyberspace, however shitty it might have been, turning yourself into PnP man with all sorts of hardware, even playing games in your brain), overall better weapons, especially energy weapons, armored enemies that were actually more difficult to damage (instead of taking full damage from ordinary ammo and exploding into pieces when you as much as pointed a small arm loaded with AP bullets at them - the fuck is this Sawyerist shit?), awesome grenades, better use of lighting (the irony), etc.

 

[CyberP]

Mostly agreed. I don't think a maintenance merger would be a good solution though.

Here's a little design test/challenge for you: how would we prevent players from using weapons from any class as they please without the weapon skill requirements, without taking any weapon out of the game or reducing total inventory size?

OTOH SS1 had cybernetic rig as an actual gameplay point (cyberspace, however shitty it might have been, turning yourself into PnP man with all sorts of hardware, even playing games in your brain)

How is SS2's rig not "an actual gameplay point"? Many of the RPG systems (hard/software upgrades) as well as inventory management and I guess hacking too are meant to be tied to it. It does feel a little more involved in SS1 though I guess.

 

[DraQ]

Mostly agreed.

OTOH SS1 had cybernetic rig as an actual gameplay point (cyberspace, however shitty it might have been, turning yourself into PnP man with all sorts of hardware, even playing games in your brain)

How is SS2's rig not "an actual gameplay point"?

Because it's just a glorified basic HUD. That's about the only functionality it allegedly provides that feels strongly tied to it. Pretty much everything else it is claimed to give you, maybe apart from socketing implants into your body and cyber-assimilation perk is perfectly achievable by a normal, uncybered human. A normal human can fire all kinds of weapons, can be strong or agile enough to use mass produced items aimed at the market of individuals without R-grade cyber rigs, can hack stuff, do research, use PSI, get better at stuff, etc. An unauged PSI sensitive individual can presumably see "ghosts" too.

OTOH in SS1 your rig gives you a much more involved HUD, advanced targetting and analysis capabilities, proximity sensor, access to cyberspace, ability to play games in your brain, ability to use cool hardware some of which would presumably be unusable otherwise - like that thing giving you 360 degrees vision, ability to monitor station's systems, etc.

In SS1 it's pretty much the reason why you can possibly succeed at your task. In SS2 it's supposed to be an awesome asset but doesn't do anything of consequence.

If you were to alter SS1 to feature uncybered protagonist you'd have to change a lot of stuff. With SS2 all it would take would be changing some text and VOs, plus replacing cyber-modules

Polito

transmitting some more sim-manuals

.

 

[Gozma]

I'm sure a half-plant / half-retard crowd at E3 is gonna boo something.

The most annoying thing about making Doom a generic slug crawling console corridor FPS is that the original game was not designed to even use one analog input. It was made for pure keyboard, not m+k. The design works fine with a gamepad.

 

[Richard Leaks]

Original Doom was designed with mouse in mind because it was a preferred method of control at id during the beta.

 

[Gozma]

Fuck

Well I played Doom and Doom 2 for years with keyboard only (eventually switching when I got into Doom 2 multiplayer and was too handicapped without the mouse) and assumed I was King Universal Experience

 

[Tehdagah]

"A linear corridor cinematic takedown shooter from id and Bethesda"

https://youtu.be/l_XbtE6g3GM?t=1m25s

This is not how a corridor looks like.

Corridor:

 

[Gozma]

That arena at the end does look much better (the first half of that thing looks beyond terrible). I bet it would be a day 1 mod to make the movement speed faster on PC too...

 

[Gragt]

I wonder why people think that playing Doom with only the keyboard is pretty much how the Good Lord dictated it should be. Even the original Doom manual recommends to try using both keyboard and mouse simultaneously:

When you’re comfortable playing the game, try using the keyboard and the mouse simultaneously. The mouse provides fine control for aiming your weapon (allowing you to smoothly rotate right and left) while the keyboard permits you to activate the many useful functions of the game.

 

[tuluse]

From what I recall, back in the day the "cool" thing was playing with a joystick in I assume a joystick+keyboard configuration. We never had a joystick, but I remember my uncle did and he was really proud of the set up.

Funny that's in the manual though.

 

[tuluse]

"A linear corridor cinematic takedown shooter from id and Bethesda"

https://youtu.be/l_XbtE6g3GM?t=1m25s

This looks about 100x better than the first video I saw. The weaksauce plasma rifle though

 

[CyberP]

Original Doom was designed with mouse in mind because it was a preferred method of control at id during the beta.

Interesting. I stand corrected. Also interesting is that you've had the account since 2011 and this is your first post.

Dumbfucks ITT need to take a hard look at these facts and stop the retardation:

1. Popamole FPS originated and was popularized on PC. Console shooters and PC shooters were very similar to each other in the 90's, until the Colla Dootys and Counterstrikes (and the Halos) as well as the decline in general.
2. Console pads > Keyboard only. Significantly so. By the logic of retards that make hilariously misinformed arguments of "auto aim this, snail pace that", Doom shouldn't have existed/could have only been compatible with mouse input only, or would have had to have full auto aim & have movement speed divided by three.

When the retardation stops you can enjoy your thread tag-free, because I get so very tired of the many ignorant idiots.
Think about it, if the mentality of PC developers was the same as yours no fucking wonder why the decline happened when PC devs sold out and hit the console market en masse...but that wasn't the reason, because most are informed and study the tech they work with/use. The reason was, of course, money...as well as general design trends. And it is the reason why the PC is just as bad these days and you have to look to indie to get anything new closely resembling Doom at all.

 

[tuluse]

Interesting. I stand corrected. Dumbfucks need to take a hard look at these facts and stop the retardation, however.

1. Popamole FPS originated and was popularized on PC. Console shooters and PC shooters were very similar to each other in the 90's, until the Colla Dootys and Counterstrikes (and the Halos) as well as the decline in general.

You should learn what popamole means first. Unless I am vastly mistaken Gears of War was both the originator and populzier of popamole gameplay. IE, you hide behind a wall and pop the moles as they leave theirs.

2. Console pads > Keyboard only. Significantly so.

No only slightly because it's very rare that you ever want to move at less than full speed. Seriously watch a competitive FPS player on a console and watch how often he only pushes a stick part way. It would be <5% of the time.

Seriously, how would Doom be improved by the ability to move at half speed, much less analog percentage of speeds?

As other's have said, it helps more in a stealth game where speed variation matters more. However, even then the best speed controls I've seen are on PC. Some of the Splinter Cell games have the mouse wheel control speed and it's much more precise and fine control than an analog stick.

You are also completely ignoring absolute controls (buttons, mouse) vs relative controls (thumb stick, joystick).

By the logic of retards that make hilariously misinformed arguments of "auto aim this, snail pace that", Doom shouldn't have existed/could have only been compatible with mouse input only.

If you try to play death match Doom with only kb against someone with a mouse you will lose. If you try to play many of the fantastic WADS that have been created over the years without a mouse you will lose. Doom 1 and 2 are *possible* to play with just a keyboard, but frankly that's just because they didn't push the difficulty too much.

When the retardation stops

It won't.

you can enjoy your thread tag-free, because I get so very tired of the many ignorant idiots.

Clearly you don't.

Think about it, if the mentality of PC developers was the same as yours no fucking wonder why the decline happened when PC devs sold out and hit the console market en masse...but that wasn't the reason, because most are informed and study the tech they work with/use. The reason was, of course, money. And it is the reason why the PC is just as bad these days and you have to look to indie to get anything new closely resembling Doom at all.

So the decline was due to chasing money or having a codexian mentality?

 

[pippin]

A question for the wise men: when was the leaning function discarded from shooters and action games in general? One would assume popamole shooters would be benefited from having a leaning function.

 

[Gozma]

I wonder why people think that playing Doom with only the keyboard is pretty much how the Good Lord dictated it should be. Even the original Doom manual recommends to try using both keyboard and mouse simultaneously:

When you’re comfortable playing the game, try using the keyboard and the mouse simultaneously. The mouse provides fine control for aiming your weapon (allowing you to smoothly rotate right and left) while the keyboard permits you to activate the many useful functions of the game.

It was a shareware game, I never heard about no manuals

People say it because that's how they played it. I don't think it's the right way to play it, but it's how everyone I knew played it until multiplayer FPS play proliferated and mousers would violate your 14.4k butt

 

[CyberP]

No only slightly because it's very rare that you ever want to move at less than full speed. Seriously watch a competitive FPS player on a console and watch how often he only pushes a stick part way. It would be <5% of the time.

Reading comprehension? I listed ~5 technically-objective benefits a pad has over M+K. Go back a page.

As for "popamole": Pop-a-mole. Simplistic, mindless gameplay. Some codexers like to define it as cover system-based shooter gameplay only, others use it for any game with terrible compromised design. I'm of the latter and find it more fitting.

I'm going to ignore the rest.
Which of what I'm saying isn't factual, for fuck sake? Is there anyone here that knows what the fuck they are talking about?

It won't.

Well, it is either discuss games with the fucktards here, or go to some truly hellish place like IGN where all you get is consoletards. I prefer PC bias to console bias, but both can look pretty dumb rather often.

A question for the wise men: when was the leaning function discarded from shooters and action games in general? One would assume popamole shooters would be benefited from having a leaning function.

It wasn't discarded. If you look across the timeline at all shooters that feature it, you'll see it is probably more popular today: E.Y.E: divine Cybermancy, STALKER, that new Wolfenstien shit, hell even Colla Dooty has it in a game or two.

 

[tuluse]

A question for the wise men: when was the leaning function discarded from shooters and action games in general? One would assume popamole shooters would be benefited from having a leaning function.

Leaning has been contextualized, hold left or right and you lean out to pop.

Leaning as it's own function was mostly forgotten when whoever owns the Tom Clancy properties decided to make popamole instead of tactical shooters*, but as cyperp points out there are still games that have it.

*you can't really do a tactical shooter on a console because of the precision aiming requirements. Well you maybe could, but it wouldn't be able to be realistic, you'd need a low damage/health ratio so you could take your time to land sniper like shots.