Game News The Golden Baby Flaps Its Wings: Grimoire Demo Released!

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

This is a very impressive piece of work, Cleve.

Your demo is humiliating me in the sense it is now easy to notice how "spoiled" we have been today's RPGs. I have played your demo 30 minutes and was not able to achieve much (the most complex RPGs I played were the Might&Magic series... never really touched Wizardry). Your game tells straight away that you need to invest time and effort to get anywhere. I like that.

Right now, I don't feel spending too much time playing the demo, but I am definitely looking forward the final product.

I liked the story blurb.

Congratulations, and good luck with the Indie Gogo.

Yeah, I agree. I was on a supposedly old school gaming forum talking about Grimoire, and I was surprised to say the least. One person was complaining that there weren't tutorial pop ups to explain all the options, and many were agreeing that those additional features were just relics of a bygone era that only bitter dorks would care about, and Bethesda made RPGs much better. Literally a majority of John Walkers, trying to justify why cinematic RPGs like Mass Effect were much better than number crunching.

And this is the exact crowd who played computer games before many of us were born, and used to relish at games like Falcon 4.0 and its gigantic manual and complexity.

I thought that the Codex was exaggerating at times with its apologism, but man I didn't know things had gotten that bad. Even most old school fans have been burned out/spoiled beyond belief.

One design idea of Grimoire is that this game should not try to be Call of Duty with autoregeneration, hand-holding tutorial and popamole softshoe rail shooting/gameplay. For 17 years I have had the attitude if the player doesn't like a game to be a little more challenging, requiring some critical thinking, a little bit of inventory shifting and analysis, even avoidance of certain areas until they are ready to handle them, that's just the style of the game and they should not be playing. There is plenty of drooling popamole out there for all who desire complete mental shutdown when playing computer games. That is not this kind of game.

I also was not averse to party death/defeat. It is not the worst thing in the world and fearing it will scare the player off if they discover they can drown in water if they have no swimming skill is too timid in design. This is why you have savegames, after all. For example, if Shiva-Han-Goromu and his bat army defeat you, maybe the player will now hesitate and think about that strange room above with the dials, the inscriptions in the Causeway. If they can be bothered they will discover that nearly every single boss encounter in Grimoire has a kryptonite that can be exploited by the player willing to think about the problem. If they can't be bothered and their OCD/ADD prevents them from thinking about anything longer than 3 seconds, they will find this game is not for them.

 

[Charles-cgr]

This is a very impressive piece of work, Cleve.

Your demo is humiliating me in the sense it is now easy to notice how "spoiled" we have been today's RPGs. I have played your demo 30 minutes and was not able to achieve much (the most complex RPGs I played were the Might&Magic series... never really touched Wizardry). Your game tells straight away that you need to invest time and effort to get anywhere. I like that.

Right now, I don't feel spending too much time playing the demo, but I am definitely looking forward the final product.

I liked the story blurb.

Congratulations, and good luck with the Indie Gogo.

Yeah, I agree. I was on a supposedly old school gaming forum talking about Grimoire, and I was surprised to say the least. One person was complaining that there weren't tutorial pop ups to explain all the options, and many were agreeing that those additional features were just relics of a bygone era that only bitter dorks would care about, and Bethesda made RPGs much better. Literally a majority of John Walkers, trying to justify why cinematic RPGs like Mass Effect were much better than number crunching.

And this is the exact crowd who played computer games before many of us were born, and used to relish at games like Falcon 4.0 and its gigantic manual and complexity.

I thought that the Codex was exaggerating at times with its apologism, but man I didn't know things had gotten that bad. Even most old school fans have been burned out/spoiled beyond belief.

In that sense Grimrock did a lot of harm, giving people the satisfaction of being "old skoolz hardcore RPG players" when in fact they were being served anything but, with step-based 90° movement to kind of create the illusion.

Not to say i don't respect the Grimrock team for their 10 years of toil though, but a surely unintended effect may well be the final nail in the coffin of true old school computer roleplaying.

 

[tuluse]

You don't have any faith in the various kickstarters, or are only blobber oldschool?

 

[felipepepe]

In that sense Grimrock did a lot of harm, giving people the satisfaction of being "old skoolz hardcore RPG players" when in fact they were being served anything but, with step-based 90° movement to kind of create the illusion.

Not to say i don't respect the Grimrock team for their 10 years of toil though, but a surely unintended effect may well be the final nail in the coffin of true old school computer roleplaying.

We had a debate sometime ago on how well recieved Grimrock really was... I mean, can you really say that it was a hit with such a low completition & playtime stats on Steam? Seems more like people bought it for the pretty graphics and got bored by the "old-school" gameplay...

 

[Charles-cgr]

You don't have any faith in the various kickstarters, or are only blobber oldschool?

A good point. I did only have first person, step based in mind when i wrote that. But also and especially system complexity. To answer your question i think at best one or two kickstarters will actually revive that while the others will, like Grimrock, just give a much more modern system a coat of oldschool paint for old times' sake. And that's what most people want them to do (few voted for the 8bit version of Wasteland 2 for example).

That's just a hunch though - i can't say i took the time to thoroughly dissect updates.

In that sense Grimrock did a lot of harm, giving people the satisfaction of being "old skoolz hardcore RPG players" when in fact they were being served anything but, with step-based 90° movement to kind of create the illusion.

Not to say i don't respect the Grimrock team for their 10 years of toil though, but a surely unintended effect may well be the final nail in the coffin of true old school computer roleplaying.

We had a debate sometime ago on how well recieved Grimrock really was... I mean, can you really say that it was a hit with such a low completition & playtime stats on Steam? Seems more like people bought it for the pretty graphics and got bored by the "old-school" gameplay...

Old-school being in quotes... I suppose this means we agree that it wasn't really old school, nor was it really meant to be engaging on that level. But this is leading to a debate on what old school means (Baldur's Gate and PE qualify or not) and i don't think this thread needs it. My opinion is that most of grimrock's success is due to graphics and a big BIG push by Notch who started a rippling effect accross the whole internet (congratulations, lottery winners).
Still, their work is respectable and my opinion completely biaised by things I try to do and the fact i never played Dungeon Master.

 

[EG]

All these years . . . and all to show for it is a hilariously buggy demo.

Spoiler

... but if those bugs aren't actually in the game, rather in the difference between Win XP and Win 7/Vista then they are a lot easier to remedy than bugs found in the actual code of the game.

Yes, as the spoiler should indicate, it isn't a serious comment.

 

[felipepepe]

Old-school being in quotes... I suppose this means we agree that it wasn't really old school, nor was it really meant to be engaging on that level. But this is leading to a debate on what old school means (Baldur's Gate and PE qualify or not) and i don't think this thread needs it. My opinion is that most of grimrock's success is due to graphics and a big BIG push by Notch who started a rippling effect accross the whole internet (congratulations, lottery winners).
Still, their work is respectable and my opinion completely biaised by things I try to do and the fact i never played Dungeon Master.

I agree with you, and that's why I think that the only effect that Grimrock may have on the market is on the graphics side, since the "old-school" thing really didn't work well... old-school gamers found it lacking, and popamole gamers found it boring.

 

[Mortmal]

This is a very impressive piece of work, Cleve.

Your demo is humiliating me in the sense it is now easy to notice how "spoiled" we have been today's RPGs. I have played your demo 30 minutes and was not able to achieve much (the most complex RPGs I played were the Might&Magic series... never really touched Wizardry). Your game tells straight away that you need to invest time and effort to get anywhere. I like that.

Right now, I don't feel spending too much time playing the demo, but I am definitely looking forward the final product.

I liked the story blurb.

Congratulations, and good luck with the Indie Gogo.

Yeah, I agree. I was on a supposedly old school gaming forum talking about Grimoire, and I was surprised to say the least. One person was complaining that there weren't tutorial pop ups to explain all the options, and many were agreeing that those additional features were just relics of a bygone era that only bitter dorks would care about, and Bethesda made RPGs much better. Literally a majority of John Walkers, trying to justify why cinematic RPGs like Mass Effect were much better than number crunching.

And this is the exact crowd who played computer games before many of us were born, and used to relish at games like Falcon 4.0 and its gigantic manual and complexity.

I thought that the Codex was exaggerating at times with its apologism, but man I didn't know things had gotten that bad. Even most old school fans have been burned out/spoiled beyond belief.

In that sense Grimrock did a lot of harm, giving people the satisfaction of being "old skoolz hardcore RPG players" when in fact they were being served anything but, with step-based 90° movement to kind of create the illusion.

Not to say i don't respect the Grimrock team for their 10 years of toil though, but a surely unintended effect may well be the final nail in the coffin of true old school computer roleplaying.

Tss tss charles.. why such bitterness, i dont remember anyone bragging of suddendly becoming an hardcore old school rpg player after playing it . Grimrock only ressurected a forgotten and once popular subgenre that was birthed by dungeon master,more choices more games is good, how is it causing harm ? Cause its too good looking and set the bar too high for other indies?

Even back then, late 80's and 90s , that genre was much more mainstsream and popular than wizardry clones, today its selling a lot more than turn based rpg too. Its a respectable, and also an old school subgenre , it play COMPLETELY differently from wizardy like game, people should not compare sword and sorcey and grimoire to it, except at the very best on the graphic quality, its really comparing apple and oranges.


Now @humanity has risen this old school gaming forum, where's the link ? Ask them what kind of rpg they were playing in the 90's and really liked. If they prefered dungeon master and ultima underworld to wizardry , its normal they will prefer bethesda and skyrim to grimoire today.

 

[Mortmal]

Old-school being in quotes... I suppose this means we agree that it wasn't really old school, nor was it really meant to be engaging on that level. But this is leading to a debate on what old school means (Baldur's Gate and PE qualify or not) and i don't think this thread needs it. My opinion is that most of grimrock's success is due to graphics and a big BIG push by Notch who started a rippling effect accross the whole internet (congratulations, lottery winners).
Still, their work is respectable and my opinion completely biaised by things I try to do and the fact i never played Dungeon Master.

I agree with you, and that's why I think that the only effect that Grimrock may have on the market is on the graphics side, since the "old-school" thing really didn't work well... old-school gamers found it lacking, and popamole gamers found it boring.

No old school gamers dont find it lacking,old school gamers who wanted a wizardry clone yes , people who liked the genre may find it a notch under chaos strikes back causes theres not the feeling of emergency and danger, but its far from lacking. As for popamole gamers, just read for opinions on steam forums,can you find any more mainstream than these forums ? The reactions are overwhelmingly positive.

 

[Charles-cgr]

Mortmal Hey give me a break - let me take part in a few conceptual debates without it being about Swords and Sorcery or bitterness.

That said i didn't say anyone bragged about "becoming" hardcore as a result of playing it but plenty of already established hardcore gamers (or self proclaimed) did identify it to what they look for in a hardcore game. But it isn't one. At least I don't think so. And my opinion is that while Grimrock set a high standard in terms of production value, it also set a standard in terms of complexity and few will be encouraged to go beyond it. Which leads to my conclusion, last nail in the coffin of the more complex kind of cRPGs (funny thing, we agree on every point - you just interpreted bitterness that wasn't there and overlooked my disclaimer about it being respectable nonetheless).

Old-school being in quotes... I suppose this means we agree that it wasn't really old school, nor was it really meant to be engaging on that level. But this is leading to a debate on what old school means (Baldur's Gate and PE qualify or not) and i don't think this thread needs it. My opinion is that most of grimrock's success is due to graphics and a big BIG push by Notch who started a rippling effect accross the whole internet (congratulations, lottery winners).
Still, their work is respectable and my opinion completely biaised by things I try to do and the fact i never played Dungeon Master.

I agree with you, and that's why I think that the only effect that Grimrock may have on the market is on the graphics side, since the "old-school" thing really didn't work well... old-school gamers found it lacking, and popamole gamers found it boring.

Which is probably why they're having trouble figuring out what to do next other than a pure clone of the first Grimrock, but we may be pleasantly surprised by future updates...

Old-school being in quotes... I suppose this means we agree that it wasn't really old school, nor was it really meant to be engaging on that level. But this is leading to a debate on what old school means (Baldur's Gate and PE qualify or not) and i don't think this thread needs it. My opinion is that most of grimrock's success is due to graphics and a big BIG push by Notch who started a rippling effect accross the whole internet (congratulations, lottery winners).
Still, their work is respectable and my opinion completely biaised by things I try to do and the fact i never played Dungeon Master.

I agree with you, and that's why I think that the only effect that Grimrock may have on the market is on the graphics side, since the "old-school" thing really didn't work well... old-school gamers found it lacking, and popamole gamers found it boring.

No old school gamers dont find it lacking,old school gamers who wanted a wizardry clone yes , people who liked the genre may find it a notch under chaos strikes back causes theres not the feeling of emergency and danger, but its far from lacking. As for popamole gamers, just read for opinions on steam forums,can you find any more mainstream than these forums ? The reactions are overwhelmingly positive.

felipepepe pointed out that the stats contradicted those forum comments, which are only the expression of the views of a more vocal minority.
Aside from that you two also mostly agree. the difference lies in the definition of "oldschool". this being a grimwah thread, i went with the assumption that by oldschool we meant system complexity, not just grid-based movement and puzzles.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

The thing is that this genre was never really that good, it always had limited design possibilities, and there are only so many put stone over there to open up door puzzles that one can design. Even then Grimrock has even more limited features compared to older real time step based dungeon crawlers from years and years ago.

 

[felipepepe]

The Konsensus here seems to be that is a fun game, but lacking due excessive dancing, among other reasons... and from the depths of Steam itself I have the data that the game didn't get much play from it's buyers... feedback may appear positive, but it's a short game that only 8% of the buyers finished... and 60% didn't play more than 1-2 hours.

 

[commie]

And that's what most people want them to do (few voted for the 8bit version of Wasteland 2 for example).

That's just a hunch though - i can't say i took the time to thoroughly dissect updates.

I always thought that 8bit Wasteland 2 option was a bit of a joke. Imagine Crysis 4 coming out and offering an 8bit side scrolling version....how many would vote for that? I love my Gold Box and step based M&M's but fuck if I'd want another CGA/EGA 320x200 crawler when computers are capable of so much more. Straw and man Charles....

In that sense Grimrock did a lot of harm, giving people the satisfaction of being "old skoolz hardcore RPG players" when in fact they were being served anything but, with step-based 90° movement to kind of create the illusion.

Not to say i don't respect the Grimrock team for their 10 years of toil though, but a surely unintended effect may well be the final nail in the coffin of true old school computer roleplaying.

The RT crawler was the popamole of the day, the closest thing to Call of Duty so we should cut DM fans some slack Charles. LoG is just catering to the action crowd.

But really, nail in the coffin of old school roleplaying? You mean we didn't have that coffin buried under 6 feet of earth since circa 1993-4?




On topic, Grimoire is crap...a mess of redundant and overcomplicated features that remind one of Twilight 2000 where you could have a hundred different skills and character development looked uber impressive until you realised that 95% of that stuff wasn't used in game and most of the rest wasn't required to get anywhere. On top of that I'm hard pressed to see a game with shittier art direction. Holy fuck the game looks awful. One is reminded of the Presidential Building in Bucharest which is a ghastly monument of various architectural styles. Perhaps the old version of S&S Underworld looked worse, but not by much.

 

[Charles-cgr]

And that's what most people want them to do (few voted for the 8bit version of Wasteland 2 for example).

That's just a hunch though - i can't say i took the time to thoroughly dissect updates.

I always thought that 8bit Wasteland 2 option was a bit of a joke. Imagine Crysis 4 coming out and offering an 8bit side scrolling version....how many would vote for that? I love my Gold Box and step based M&M's but fuck if I'd want another CGA/EGA 320x200 crawler when computers are capable of so much more. Straw and man Charles....

In that sense Grimrock did a lot of harm, giving people the satisfaction of being "old skoolz hardcore RPG players" when in fact they were being served anything but, with step-based 90° movement to kind of create the illusion.

Not to say i don't respect the Grimrock team for their 10 years of toil though, but a surely unintended effect may well be the final nail in the coffin of true old school computer roleplaying.

We had a debate sometime ago on how well recieved Grimrock really was... I mean, can you really say that it was a hit with such a low completition & playtime stats on Steam? Seems more like people bought it for the pretty graphics and got bored by the "old-school" gameplay...

Old-school being in quotes... I suppose this means we agree that it wasn't really old school, nor was it really meant to be engaging on that level. But this is leading to a debate on what old school means (Baldur's Gate and PE qualify or not) and i don't think this thread needs it. My opinion is that most of grimrock's success is due to graphics and a big BIG push by Notch who started a rippling effect accross the whole internet (congratulations, lottery winners).
Still, their work is respectable and my opinion completely biaised by things I try to do and the fact i never played Dungeon Master.

The RT crawler was the popamole of the day, the closest thing to Call of Duty so we should cut DM fans some slack Charles. LoG is just catering to the action crowd.

But really, nail in the coffin of old school roleplaying? You mean we didn't have that coffin buried under 6 feet of earth since circa 1993-4?

I'm going to get comments about bitterness again but here goes... That's exactly what i mean. The indie and kickstarter scenes could have been encouraged to revive the genre but Grimrock at least contributed to them not going beyond its own limited scope. I can't say for sure what would have happened if Grimrock had never been but I do have the impression that anything too complex won't get far because the cursor for oldschool was set at the mid 90s and this is at least in part due to grimrock's influence. Just an impression though. And not bitterness or disrespect

 

[Mortmal]

Well its hard to define what hardcore means , lets keep it at something reminiscent to good games being published in the 80's 90's or even some 2000's with little to no hand holding ,and a few braincells as requirement .... For me grimrock is definitively one .The rt crawler is more action focused , but i cant say the best wizardries were very mind challenging either , i dont remember being stuck on any tactical fight or had any problem solving the puzzles. What i ve seen on grimoire doesnt either, i dont need a manual or tooltip nothing is hard to figure.

Grimrock isnt setting any standard , that standard was set decades ago by dungeon master and never prevented other type of games to appear.If we dont get more complex games is simply because publishers are looking at way to make the most money possible, aka the sea of mobile phone shovelware, world of warcraft clone, and now indies too with minecraft clones.


I dont know if you can trust steam stats about grimrock ,i remember some stats about people not finishing half life either, that was proven an error later. As for codex consensus, consensus here is that bethesda games are shit right ? I had a look at rpgcodex group, some top of 230+ hours on skyrim with an average of 80 hours for most people.

 

[King Crispy]

 

[felipepepe]

Half-Life and some other older games didn't have time played tracking aeons ago, that''s why people that bought & played at that time have "0 hours played". Also, Konsensus is really that Skyrim is a bad RPG, but a good hicking simulator, and many of us like hiking simulators. :3

Also, mods have fixed some shit.

 

[Mortmal]

Half-Life and some other older games didn't have time played tracking aeons ago, that''s why people that bought & played at that time have "0 hours played". Also, Konsensus is really that Skyrim is a bad RPG, but a good hicking simulator, and many of us like hiking simulators. :3

Also, mods have fixed some shit.

92 hours hiking man...I belive you really do love that.... That must be it a lot of people do love hiking here, we should have a forum subsection. Its too bad mass effect isnt on steam , such intriguing stats!

 

[tuluse]

It's not?

 

[felipepepe]

Mass Effect is just a corredor shooter with linear story... good for one playthrough, if much, that's why is no match for all the hiking in Skyrim.

 

[Mortmal]

It's not?

Not the last one , i think its only on origin.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

So I submitted the 1.1 version to virustotal out of curiosity, and it turns out someone else had done it already . One of the scanners found this.

http://www.microsoft.com/security/portal/threat/encyclopedia/entry.aspx?Name=Trojan:Win32/Loktrom.B

targets users from certain countries

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

The thing is that this genre was never really that good, it always had limited design possibilities, and there are only so many put stone over there to open up door puzzles that one can design. Even then Grimrock has even more limited features compared to older real time step based dungeon crawlers from years and years ago.

I think Eye of the Beholder II had such a powerful immersion to it that people didn't care that the combat was kind of lacking and clicky. I really enjoyed that game and I thought the real-time combat was faithful to D&D but I never found it as interesting as Bane of the Cosmic Forge or CDS/Wiz 7.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

So I submitted the 1.1 version to virustotal out of curiosity, and it turns out someone else had done it already . One of the scanners found this.

http://www.microsoft.com/security/portal/threat/encyclopedia/entry.aspx?Name=Trojan:Win32/Loktrom.B

targets users from certain countries

I'm pretty sure that is a false reading. I think you are not the only person with a virus scanner that found it. There would be loads of reports to that effect if it was contaminated.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Half-Life and some other older games didn't have time played tracking aeons ago, that''s why people that bought & played at that time have "0 hours played". Also, Konsensus is really that Skyrim is a bad RPG, but a good hicking simulator, and many of us like hiking simulators. :3

Also, mods have fixed some shit.

I love hiking in Fallout 3, even when I can use fast travel. You never know what you are going to find in some nook somewhere.