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The Errant Signal Thread

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
I thought this was fine and fairly interesting (I feel like it was old though - I've definitely read the "state's eye view" and monolithic boardgame societies criticism before in multiple places) but he's showing his gang tattoos with shit like the great man theory aside (which is getting Civ perversely backwards - the "great men" systems in the last couple Civs make them identical, fungible, predictable pattern phenomena instead real historical determiners; it's an intentional self-conscious dismissal of great men, which is probably why the great men systems in Civ are so gamey and boring).

Also hearing a guy sigh and say, "... troubling" is a trigger word for me
 

Turjan

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Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
... the "great men" systems in the last couple Civs make them identical, fungible, predictable pattern phenomena instead real historical determiners; it's an intentional self-conscious dismissal of great men, which is probably why the great men systems in Civ are so gamey and boring.

Well, it's a good description why I find the Civ games a bit boring. Lots of lost potential here because the system is so symmetrical and ultimately meaningless. Good game, though. And I think the review still stated that, too.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
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May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
Oh god

1:30 and he already lost me

Civ was an idea created with simple mechanics that proved to be addictive enough to get many sequels without changing core gameplay. There's nothing metaphorical about it, just a lot of abstraction.
He's gone over this before (probably many times) but he isn't really concerned with intrinsic meaning in games. His analyses are his own readings and interpretations - in other words, he's discussing what it makes him think about and what he gets out of it. Does it matter if <game designer X> had those things in mind? I'm not sure how it devalues someone's experience and analysis if they're able to get something out of a work even if it wasn't intentional.
 

TheGreatOne

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Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,214
It would be interesting to see that retard who boycotts Tides of Numenera because of TB combat (because dolls and metaphysics and MUH FEELINGS) and Errant Signal working together on a video. One guy can't understand abstractions at all and one guy that reads into them way too deeply, thinking that video game designers are actually trying to have some kind of message or implication in the mechanics they design. Two clueless pseudo intellectual art fags who complement each other, like John Romero and Carmack working together. Also there should be a surprise twist when halfway through the video it becomes a Channel Awesome type video with a lot of self important inane cutaway gags, circlejerking between different "e-celebrities" doing cameos and cringeworthy acting combined with poorly written unfunny dialogue.
Joshua Campbell
6 hours ago

I like how the term "Social Justice Warrior" has devolved from being descriptive of "a person who is aggressively politically correct and/or progressive" to being "a term that people use when they want to be dismissive, but don't want to engage in intellectual discussion."

We get it: having "just a game" criticized on an artistic level offended you, and having someone negatively speak about something you enjoy angers you on an irrational level. Just do me a favor: don't cry when another Ebert comes along and claims your favorite game "isn't art," because if games are to be considered as such, they will be judged on the same standards.
 

Ninjerk

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Messages
14,323
Joshua Campbell
6 hours ago

I like how the term "Social Justice Warrior" has devolved from being descriptive of "a person who is aggressively politically correct and/or progressive" to being "a term that people use when they want to be dismissive, but don't want to engage in intellectual discussion."

We get it: having "just a game" criticized on an artistic level offended you, and having someone negatively speak about something you enjoy angers you on an irrational level. Just do me a favor: don't cry when another Ebert comes along and claims your favorite game "isn't art," because if games are to be considered as such, they will be judged on the same standards.
I like it too!
 

catfood

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Just do me a favor: don't cry when another Ebert comes along and claims your favorite game "isn't art," because if games are to be considered as such, they will be judged on the same standards.

:lol:
 

Shadenuat

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He's gone over this before (probably many times) but he isn't really concerned with intrinsic meaning in games. His analyses are his own readings and interpretations - in other words, he's discussing what it makes him think about and what he gets out of it. Does it matter if <game designer X> had those things in mind? I'm not sure how it devalues someone's experience and analysis if they're able to get something out of a work even if it wasn't intentional
Why should we respect his opinion if he based his readings on nothing?
It's not just interpretation, it's criticism, and it's one-dimensional.

And I'm butthurt that he compared barbarians to my lovely mind worms :rpgcodex:
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Transcripts for video haters.

Saint's Row: http://www.errantsignal.com/blog/?p=636

Grand Theft Auto V makes no secret of its lofty artistic goals. It aspires to be a ludic parody of Americana, a grand statement about contemporary values and culture. Unfortunately in execution it struggles to be little more than a 100 million dollar version of Holden Caulfield calling everyone phonies. For all the pomp and self-congratulation, Grand Theft Auto V isn’t an insightful game so much as a game that wants people to think it’s insightful.

And that’s kind of what I love about Saint’s Row IV. Where Grand Theft Auto is a comparatively dumb game that wants very hard for you to think it’s smart, Saint’s Row IV is a smart game that wants very hard for you to think it’s dumb. It’s like a good Paul Verhooven movie; indulgent and superficially stupid despite having more going on under the hood than you’d think.

Saint’s Row IV operates as a sort of self-examination of its own canon, trying to figure out what Saint’s Row was, what it became, and whether there was any value in any of it. It looks back at Shaundi’s transformation, Ben King’s transformation, Johnny Gat’s ascent to deification, Pierce’s selling out… and how the game went from “self-serious GTA knockoff” to “wacky character-driven open world comedy game.” And in examining those arcs and the history of the franchise, I think they make an argument about the game’s place in the world by framing it alongside references to other kitschy things. Because really, I think Saint’s Row IV is simultaneously a love letter to and instance of kitsch.

Now, normally when people think of “Kitsch” they picture dogs playing poker and obnoxious lawn flamingos. But in this context I don’t mean tacky garden gnome decorations, I mean mass market, easy to swallow art-as-commerce. This might get a little tricky, because it’s skirting riiight along the edge of a bunch of “BUT WHAT IS ART?” style questions that do nothing but derail the discussion. So in the context of this conversation it might be best to try and define what Saint’s Row IV considers kitsch by citing examples used by Saint’s Row itself. Sci fi and action movies, a myriad of video games, wrestling, obnoxious pop songs and one-hit wonders. It’s all cheesey, dopey pop art stuff, and that’s what the game lives and breathes.

But Saint’s Row IV isn’t mocking those things, it’s celebrating them. Take the pop songs, for example. In GTA you’d get a band like… ugh… Lovefist, and the joke would be about how they’re pretentious self-absorbed druggies or prima donna pop starlets. In Saint’s Row pop songs get focused on as a moment shared between the player and Pierce. It’s played for laughs, but it’s also a genuine show of friendship between two characters that the silly, easy to sing along with pop song facilitates. When Zenyak interferes with their next song they get legitimately upset. In Saint’s Row it isn’t the cheesey things that are the target of ire, it’s the cheesey things that bring us together through that kitschy mass appeal.

Perhaps nothing epitomizes this more than the How the Saints Saved Christmas DLC. It’s a mishmash of just about every major Christmas movie and holiday special, from Love, Actually to The Grinch to A Christmas Story. Christmas almost gets cancelled, but the player saves the day and in the process learns the True Meaning Of Christmas™. Much like the films and shows that inspired it, it’s incredibly wrote and hoky. But the hokiness is itself what attracts us to those shows. We’re drawn to them not in spite of the trope-y meaning of Christmas story lines and gaudy secularized Christmas iconography, but because of them. It’d be easy to do a snarky Christmas special in a way that was mean spirited or dismissive or even cruel, but while they try to get their laughs it’s done with a sincerity and earnestness that belies an appreciation for the very things they’re riffing on.

The game’s less interested in making fun of things people like, and more interested in pinning down why people like the things they do. Take Matt Miller’s obsession with Nightblade, which is an in-universe TV show that’s like a crossover between Blade and the X-Files. At first the player pretends to be derisive of the entire premise. But over the course of his loyalty mission, Matt makes a case for why he digs the series, as silly as it may seem on the surface and as unhealthy as his obsession seems to go. And at the end of the mission the player unveils that they may have been a fan, too. Again there’s this motif of finding value in the shallow and the absurd.

And whether it’s Christmas specials or Matt Miller fanboying about NightBlade or Saint’s Row’s own lore, the point the game tries to make about kitschy pop art is that there’s something that attracts us to it, and that something is worthwhile to those who see it. It may be a simple pleasure like the catchiness of a song or the way a game feels in our hands. It may be the choreographed conflict of a wrestling match, or the memorable fight scenes from a John Carpenter movie featuring wrestlers. But there’s some impulse that compels us all to like stuff that’s traditionally dismissed by more “serious” high brow art.

And that’s where Saint’s Row IV finds the value in its own history, whether it’s the knockoff gangster game or the wacky scifi comedy. It looks back and realizes it’s a kitschy piece of pop art that never really had anything particularly deep to say… but that it was still loved by its players. And whether the reason for that love was character customization, the catharsis of its play, or the scatalogical comedy it often engaged in – it resonated with people. And in so doing it finds itself in the company of pop music ear worms, Roddy Piper fighting Keith David in They Live, and 2D Beat ‘em Ups from the 90’s. And I think it considers that good company to be in.

It’s easy to be cynical, especially when you’re talking about something as superfluous as consumer grade entertainment. Pop songs are cheesey, wrestling is fake, video games have paper thin plots, action movies glorify violence at the expense of drama. And all of that’s true. But to dismiss those things because they’re shallow or too popular is also to dismiss whatever makes them resonate with so many people. Not all art has to be high art, and not all kitsch is dogs playing poker style tripe. Art attracts people for all sorts of reasons. It’s nice to play a game that recognizes how silly, shallow, and dumb popular art can be while still thinking the reasons they got popular in the first place – the reasons they resonated with people – are worthwhile.

Civilization: http://www.errantsignal.com/blog/?p=638

I love Civilization. It’s right up there with Doom and Mario 64 and Deus Ex as a foundational game for me; one of the titles that made me the sort of player and critic I am today. A strategic simulator that stretches across of all of recorded time, bringing us the story of man from agriculture to the internet in an attempt to recreate not actual history -the events and people that shaped the world as it is- but the pattern of history -the progress and the expansion and the overall direction of all of mankind. It’s a massive undertaking and even as a kid I saw the profundity in a game interested in looking at systemizing something that grand.

And all of that – the admiration, the love of playing it, the awe of the sheer scope of the game – still holds true for me today. But as I’ve grown older and more learned my view on what the game is has shifted. As a kid I felt I was learning something – from key scientific breakthroughs to which leaders went with which civilization. But as an adult I see the underlying rhetoric at play here, the assumptions baked into its metaphors and the arguments being put forth by its mechanics. And while I still absolutely adore the game, I do so now with the understanding that it’s not showing the actual patterns of history but patterns of a specific lens through which it views history.

Let’s start with the title – Civilization. That’s sort of a troubling word in and of itself, right? It’s hard to call something civilized without making a value judgement against peoples that don’t normally get considered a proper civilization. Like you’re a member of a civilization or you’re a savage. And maybe I could ignore that if it were just the name of the game that brought up this idea. But the Civilization franchise also uses game mechanics to reinforce the validity and primacy of traditional civilizations with the addition of barbarian hordes. The mechanical point of barbarians is to spice up early gameplay and force players to keep at least a small military available since barbarians could attack at any moment whether or not you’re at war with anyone. But that’s sort of the problem here – unlike other quote-unquote civilized societies Barbarians don’t obey territory boundaries and can’t be reasoned with. The game paints them basically as monsters. Actually in Alpha Centauri the Barbarian stand-ins literally are monsters in the form of terror inducing mind worms, which provide pretty much the same purpose and underscore how dehumanized the barbarians really are. Civilization IV even goes so far as to have the barbarians share a banner with wildlife as if to imply they’re on the same side, as if they were destructive forces of nature and not really people at all.

With the barbarian mechanic Civilization effectively comes out and says that while there are many civilizations of all colors and creeds, there are still some groups of people too small or too mobile or too primitive to warrant any response but the swing of the sword or the loosing of an arrow. But this idea that there are some peoples or social constructs below consideration as equals – or worse, the idea that some people are just quote-unquote savages incapable of anything other than conquest and destruction – doesn’t really gel with the rest of the game’s self-image as a celebration of all of mankind’s shared history. You know, where we’ve been and where we’re going and all that feel good jazz the game insists it’s about. So what’s up with the canon fodder? Well, the barbarians’ crime isn’t savagery or pillaging or violence. God knows, the real civilizations engage in plenty of that. No, their crime is not picking up agriculture, settling down, and joining the race for territory, resources, and power. Their real crime, and the reason the game considers them beneath you, is simply that they don’t belonging to a proper nation.

Because really, that’s what Civilization is. It’s an ode to nationalism. A paean to self-perpetuating empire; a love letter not to the peoples of the world but the arbitrary banners and borders they fight for. You may choose a leader when starting a game, but that’s just a figurehead, an icon. In Civilization you don’t play as Ghandi or George Washington or Catherine the Great. You are playing as the state – an ageless construct interested only in its own growth, power, and self preservation that’s as divorced from the people that make it up as you are from the cells that make you up. Compare Civ’s approach to Crusader Kings, where you play a series of characters in succession. The emphasis isn’t on government itself, but government as a reflection on a dynasty of individuals placed in its charge. Crusader Kings insists that governments are a process by which individuals organize their fight for power and glory. It suggests that conquest and empire is a result of simpler, baser human desires. In contrast, Civilization posits that the state is all that is or ever was. The humans themselves are incidental. And that, I think, is the key problem I have with the game as an adult. It frames the entire history of mankind as the history of nations, not the history of people.

For example, before you even have wheels, calendars, or written language your people have decided that they are, in fact, a unified people. Which… I mean, that’s kind of a new concept historically speaking and it sort of sticks out that a game that starts in 50,000 BC presupposes it. Here’s a picture of what we might now refer to collectively as “Ancient Greece.” Notice that it’s composed of an area of city-states and “tribal areas” that make up what we traditionally think of simply as a unified people, makin’ marble busts and wearin’ togas. But they weren’t really unified – at least not in the way Civilization tries to pretend they were. Sparta tried to invade Athens during the Peloponnesian War while Athens had its own little empire going on. They may have been united in empire under Alexander the Great and others, but they had separate laws and cultures and armies. Yet when playing Civilization Athens and Sparta are default city names for the Greek Civilization, as if they had always belonged to some formally unified entity. Your civilization in the game can’t be a loose confederation of City States and tribes. And your civilization also can’t really be a proper empire with subservient but autonomous governments reporting back to you or colonies abroad. In fact we had to make a whole other game to deal with colonies. These are some major ways of organizing cultures that have been around for millennia and we sort of skip straight from agriculture to our modern concept of a country. Now, some of this might just be developers being biased by the times they live in – we don’t exactly have a ton of independent city-states, for example. But I think a lot of this stems from the games that Meiers cites as inspiration for Civilization – games like Risk and Empire. There’s no real timeframe for Risk, but artillery and cavalry units place it somewhere between the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries as the concept of nationalism was taking off. More importantly, it was released in 1957, right in the middle of the Cold War. Empire’s more abstract and Civilization mostly took the city micromanaging from it, but it’s clearly influenced by World War II and was also released during the Cold War. The game’s roots are in games where states fight states; MicroProse and Firaxis just take that pattern and extrapolate it backwards into all of history whether it makes sense or not. This is why you have a centralized government with a single treasury, a research agenda, major public works projects, and all cities working towards a common goal often before you’ve discovered writing. From turn 1 you’re playing as a unified, modern nation.

And in the context of a game that’s about being a country we start taking on the views of a country. Everything suddenly becomes a weapon for the expansion of state power and influence. Cities build units for battle. Science unlocks better units and tools. Religion can influence opinion in other countries. Money can buy friends or pay off enemies or rush production. Happiness keeps productivity and growth high. Culture can spread your borders or religion or let you establish social orders that give other advantages. No part of your Civilization exists for its own sake; everything exists as a means of harming, manipulating, or defending yourself from the other civilizations. That’s elegant and beautiful from the perspective of designing a game that plays really well. But it utterly dehumanizes the country you’re playing as. You adopt Liberty in Civ V because you had to pick a cultural perk and you figured a science bonus would fit your play style. You build the colosseum to generate more happiness not because you worry about the contentment of your citizens but because you see a war coming in 20 turns and you need production operating at full capacity.

What’s odd is that this problem is actually getting worse with time. It didn’t use to be quite this bad. In Civ II you could customize the building types your cities would use throughout the game, which had no direct mechanical impact but gave you a sense of directing this society. You got to expand your throne room if people loved you, giving happiness a reward structure divorced from simply keeping production up. And social orders weren’t exclusively about progress, but shifting needs and cultural norms. The game asks players to make a decision about whether slavery was worth the production bonuses or if Democracy was worth giving up some of their unilateral power as leader. You got to change the way your civ looked. If your people cared about you, you got rewarded. If you stuck to your ideals it might meant the game would handicap you, but that made those ideals matter. All of that fed into an idea that the game was as much role playing as strategy, that your choices influenced whether you’d win but whether you’d win wasn’t all that mattered.

Speaking of winning… I already mentioned that the selection of winstates in Civilization reflect a certain bias in my “Keep Your Politics out of My Game” video. So I won’t go over that again. I will say, however, that the universality and finality of the win states reinforces a sort of fatalist “one civ to rule them all” philosophy. It presents history as a sort of Hunger Games for countries – only one gets to take the prize as The Most Important Civilization Ever. Which, again, makes sense given the game’s board and strategy game roots, but reframes every decision in history as a zero-sum game leading up to a single nation achieving some sort of insurmountable achievement that proves their inherent superiority. And first of all, proving the inherent superiority of specific nations is really troubling for a lot of obvious reasons.

But it also frames civilizations in direct competition in a way they aren’t, really. Compare the win states in Civilization with, say, the Lifetime Wish system of The Sims 3. Each Sim has their own life-long ambition, combined with smaller short-term tasks that help them along that path. These goals can be anything from getting super rich to having a lot of friends to becoming a master thief. But the Sims aren’t competing; it’s not like if Mortimer Goth achieves his dream first then the game ends, all other dreams are rendered irrelevant, and Mortimer Goth is declared the best Sim to ever live. They each have their own goals and have to work with or against each other to achieve them – sometimes friends are made, sometimes enemies, and that’s what drives an interesting emergent narrative. And this seems more in line with what real civilizations are like – they each have their own goals, and sometimes those are in conflict with one another and that leads to strife. Instead Civilization presents us all as being in a mad dash to be the first to be the bestest nation ever in one of a few areas. It suggests that if there is a human emotion experienced by these primal state-entities, it’s pride; that the only time these nations look above their current need for more power it’s to build up and reinforce their legacy. You don’t build the most culturally important city or the first trip to Alpha Centauri for the reasons humans would do those things, you do it because it legitimizes your civilization in the eyes of other civilizations.

The win states also undercut what could have been a simulationist view of history. Which the whole game is designed to do, really. Civilization isn’t a mechanical playground where you can experiment with history, it’s got a very intentionally designed arc to the whole thing. There are clear early, mid, and late game stages. You explore and expand, then skirmish over the remaining resources and empty tiles, and finally settle in and choose which way you think you can win the game. You can futz with this a bit, but only so much – even the one city civilizations or those that delay researching medieval stuff until the 20th century still mostly follow the game’s plotted arcs. Much like how the new SimCity doesn’t allow for agrarian cities – the idea being that no one would want to build those, I guess – Civilization doesn’t allow for any civs other than those in it to win it. You can’t be a small and industrious peoples, you can’t aim for happiness and quality of life as a goal. You’re forced to aspire to greatness.

Which is the other weird thing – Civilization takes the oft-problematic “Great Man” view of history, where specific important individuals (almost always men) are shown as the drivers of history itself instead of the confluence of, you know, everyone in history, and steps back even further. This isn’t “Great Man” history, it’s “Great Thing History,” where world wonders, civic improvements, revolutionary technologies, and battle-turning combat units of centuries past are celebrated. Don’t worry, Great Men are there too as Great Engineers and Great Prophets and Great Generals, but in this statist view of history, even great men don’t matter as much as their accomplishments in the name of national power, glory, and expansion. I suppose in playing as a thing rather than as a person you recognize things rather than people.

All of this sounds really negative, and I want to emphasize that I’m not hating on the game. I’m just trying to get to the core of what its mechanics and metaphor really add up to, what they really say about the civilizations we live in. And what it presents, at least to me, is a peek into the mind of the state as an entity. And that view suggests that state governments are inherently dehumanizing and indifferent to suffering unless it harms them directly, narcissistic almost to the point of solipsism, and motivated by base desires like survival, expansion, and power. And that’s curious to me because Civilization always billed itself as celebratory, a proud look back at all things the collective we have accomplished across fifty thousand years – from hunting mammoths to space shuttles, from cave paintings made of ash to complex symphonies. But to the civilizations in the game a space shuttle is just a win state, a symphony is just a means of generating more culture or tourism. Civilization wraps its cold, detached, reptilian AI in a cute cartoon of Harald Bluetooth or Ghandi; it takes awe-inspiring feats of engineering or art that have moved people to tears and hands them a simple stat bonus. It asks you to buy into a shiny fable of a shared human history while trying to get you to engage in violent and competitive empire building. And perhaps it’s that odd duality at the core of Civilization that sticks out in my head when playing it as an adult. I want to believe in the optimistic, human focused tale about culture, art, and science, and how the world we know is the culmination of of everything anyone has ever done. But the history of Civilization isn’t the history of people, it’s the history of things from the view of the state. And I think we confuse those two things at our peril.
 

Xor

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Yeah, I think I might be done with campster. If all he's going to do is analyze various games and critique their handling of various sociopolitical issues, well, I find that incredibly boring. I play video games because they're fun. I don't need them to be "art".

When campster talks about mechanics and design, he's fine. And he's had insightful things to say about those topics in the past. But I just don't care about the topics he's discussed recently.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
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Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
Yeah, I think I might be done with campster. If all he's going to do is analyze various games and critique their handling of various sociopolitical issues, well, I find that incredibly boring. I play video games because they're fun. I don't need them to be "art".

When campster talks about mechanics and design, he's fine. And he's had insightful things to say about those topics in the past. But I just don't care about the topics he's discussed recently.
I don't have a problem with anyone making a criticism of mechanics and what it says about a game's message, but why does his criticism sound like a tumblr madlib? How do people who are intelligent and articluate not get the joke?
 

Gozma

Arcane
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Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
I am 100% not on the "C'mon BRO IT'S JUST A GAME NOT ART HURF" line - I think his shit is completely valid as criticism and if you haven't had thoughts of a similar type while playing stuff like Civ and you are an adult, I dunno what to say. I had the exact same reaction to "Sparta" and "Athens" being nothing but two different city names in a Greek empire playing Civ N however many years ago. The only thing that bugs me is that he constantly takes time out to say insipid shit like, "Most "great men"... WEREN'T WOMEN" to signal what team he's on because it makes him feel more secure.
 

tuluse

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Messages
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I am 100% not on the "C'mon BRO IT'S JUST A GAME NOT ART HURF" line - I think his shit is completely valid as criticism and if you haven't had thoughts of a similar type while playing stuff like Civ and you are an adult, I dunno what to say. I had the exact same reaction to "Sparta" and "Athens" being nothing but two different city names in a Greek empire playing Civ N however many years ago. The only thing that bugs me is that he constantly takes time out to say insipid shit like, "Most "great men"... WEREN'T WOMEN" to signal what team he's on because it makes him feel more secure.
I only watched the first few minutes, but in general his criticism seems banal. Yeah, Civ is very ethnocentric and basically makes the player copy the US or other western Empires to build their "civilization", but it's so obvious it seems pointless to point out. Did he make any interesting or original point later on or was it just more Realizing There Are Other Points Of View In the World™ 101?
 

Ninjerk

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14,323
I don't know. Just watch it. It's probably exactly what you think it is given what's been said already.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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Messages
5,698
I only watched the first few minutes, but in general his criticism seems banal. Yeah, Civ is very ethnocentric and basically makes the player copy the US or other western Empires to build their "civilization", but it's so obvious it seems pointless to point out. Did he make any interesting or original point later on or was it just more Realizing There Are Other Points Of View In the World™ 101?
With respect, what do you expect? Must every single commentary on a game be profound and world-altering to be acceptable, otherwise it's worthless and deserves to be mocked or derided? Or is no critique acceptable? Is sociolpolitical critique of a game not warranted, except when you arbitrarily decide when it is warranted? What gives you the right to declare another person's critique and decision to make that critique invalid?

With all respect, I find offensive and somewhat startling that you would respond to someone's honest critique and attempt at contributing to rational discourse in this manner. Furthermore, it's very easy to attack someone's opinion or simply disagree with it (or their decision to express it, which is what seems absurd to me); it is much more difficult to develop and express your own ideas on the subject. I'm not seeing anyone bothering to respond to his essay in detail. All I'm seeing is people declaring it "one-dimensional" or "banal" without any elaboration whatsoever, then propping up the "it's just a game!" straw man argument we've seen a billion times.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
With respect, what do you expect? Must every single commentary on a game be profound and world-altering to be acceptable, otherwise it's worthless and deserves to be mocked or derided? Or is no critique acceptable? Is sociolpolitical critique of a game not warranted, except when you arbitrarily decide when it is warranted? What gives you the right to declare another person's critique and decision to make that critique invalid?

With all respect, I find offensive and somewhat startling that you would respond to someone's honest critique and attempt at contributing to rational discourse in this manner. Furthermore, it's very easy to attack someone's opinion or simply disagree with it (or their decision to express it, which is what seems absurd to me); it is much more difficult to develop and express your own ideas on the subject. I'm not seeing anyone bothering to respond to his essay in detail. All I'm seeing is people declaring it "one-dimensional" or "banal" without any elaboration whatsoever, then propping up the "it's just a game!" straw man argument we've seen a billion times.
I don't really have a response to his criticism.

He's right, but he's also boring. It's like noting that James Bond glorifies male chauvinism. It's true, but it doesn't add much to the conversation. If I made a 10 minute long video about it, what would your reaction be to that?

I guess it comes to what purpose these videos are supposed to serve. Are they supposed to open a dialog where we discuss something interesting? If that's the case this video is a failure. Not only is it not interesting, but there is little to discuss. It's nearly tautological. So is he supposed to be a teacher informing his audience? If that's the case, this video might serve a purpose, just not for me because this is not an advanced topic. Are the videos just supposed to make him look smart as he delivers his sermons unto the ignorant masses? If that's the case, I demand a better class of ego feeding.

Most of his videos seem to be a the discussion category. He brings up points about how game mechanics work and there is room to build on what he's saying or disagree. This video (what I watched of it) felt like a lecture. He was telling me how it was with no room to disagree or take it in a new interesting direction.

I suspect he just feels guilty for enjoying Civ and wanted to get it off his chest. So I think my answer to what purpose this video is supposed to serve is that it's therapeutic for him.
 
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Shadenuat

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What gives you the right to declare another person's critique and decision to make that critique invalid?
He already made same points in one of his previous videos, and said he wasn't proud of it much. Now he jumps on same train again.
That video, that you, Sea, responded to with a big post in his blog, and your post was actually a collaboration of many points made by people in this thread who wrote big and complex posts in response to him.

Also, what's with the tumblr attitude? Noone has rights to post, or not to post, anything. It's not about rights. Noone here has to prove anything to you, no matter how prestigious you think you are. You might as well said "come on people, you can do better than that". And if you think we can't, well, we always have you to write long posts to everything.

People write long shit about what matters to them and what they find interesting. They didn't find this video interesting enough. What, should we do it just out of sense of duty or something?

if you haven't had thoughts of a similar type while playing stuff like Civ and you are an adult, I dunno what to say. I had the exact same reaction to "Sparta" and "Athens" being nothing but two different city names in a Greek empire
Lol no. Why should anyone have that sort of reaction? Civ has it's gameplay sprawl for THOUSANDS of years. You start adding historically accurate details to it and you and game would collapse under the weight of those decisions. This is why Paradox makes their games to last only during small periods of time, like medieval age or industrial age. And to have at least some sort of balance, they still have to make global design run through everything. That's why Byzantine Empire has nobility and succesion and levies.
Then you should take into concideration stuff like multiplayer and rankings, and it should become clear why all civs behave in same manner and have same chance of winning the game. You can get somali pirates into space ffs. But that is the beauty of abstract boardgame-like design.
 
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Dexter

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I am 100% not on the "C'mon BRO IT'S JUST A GAME NOT ART HURF" line - I think his shit is completely valid as criticism and if you haven't had thoughts of a similar type while playing stuff like Civ and you are an adult, I dunno what to say. I had the exact same reaction to "Sparta" and "Athens" being nothing but two different city names in a Greek empire playing Civ N however many years ago. The only thing that bugs me is that he constantly takes time out to say insipid shit like, "Most "great men"... WEREN'T WOMEN" to signal what team he's on because it makes him feel more secure.
But it is just a game and isn't real, it's purpose is not to teach people accurate history or elucidate them on the evils of empires but to be fun and entertain via game play. Things like cities, battles, armies, violence, resources etc. are also highly abstracted into turn-based moves between symbols on the screen and revolts and similar are represented by tool-tips. It shouldn't be held up to the same standards or regarded as the sole tool of a political or historical education as it doesn't set out to do any such thing, just as Monopoly isn't the great criticism of capitalism, Warhammer/40K or WarCraft/StarCraft aren't guidebooks to galactic empire building or conquest and zombie- or WW2-shooters aren't meant to be harsh criticism of human society and if someone is trying to criticize a game he should do so mainly upon the basis of the game play mechanics involved and if they fit/don't fit or how they could be expanded or iterated upon to make a better game, not on his very own biases and personal political opinions, because *surprise* people are going to disagree with them and it isn't going to lead to a fruitful discussion.

Overall I think the people that can't just sit down and enjoy something (possibly with friends) without self-flagellating themselves with a wet whip over a fictional computer simulation have more of a problem than the people that are just trying to enjoy themselves playing a game.

Disclaimer: I haven't listened to his latest few videos since they've gotten awfully boring and repetitive a while ago.
 
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Unwanted

Xu Fugui

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Just as Monopoly isn't meant as a criticism of capitalism,
Well...
:hmmm:
Other than that I think you're spot on. Should Civilization display an hour long film about the horrors of war and what the civilian population goes trough every time you conquer a city? Should Crusader Kings get preachy on how awful arranged marriages can be every time you marry away some relative with dubious claims to the throne to another family? I don't think they would be better games for it, the historical draping are just flavour as he points out with the Alpha Centauri segment that the barbarians could easily be replaced with mind worms. There is really no need to get this butthurt when the game never claimed to be an accurate historical representation at all. It's better to save the energy and use it for something productive instead, whining how children's entertainment doesn't conform to your social justice ideals is pretty stupid when there are real problems out there.
 

Gozma

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It makes me sad that criticism is so consumed by prissy sanctimony that you guys think it has no other existence than political hectoring. I don't think, "Tssch, the damn fascists are conflating Sparta and Athens! Burn them! The game is shit!", it's that seeing such a stark mass of history elided into a non-contingent string of characters over city tokens makes you think about the nature of the abstraction, how it adds up into the whole Civ package, and how it interacts with the "fantasy of history" Civ generates. It's fun and natural to think about it and talk about it, not even just for some obvious constructive critical purpose like Building a Better Civ N+1.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Gozma is right. Opposition to pretentious hipsterism isn't a reason to renounce all thoughtfulness.

Moderation in all things, I say.
 

Dexter

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It makes me sad that criticism is so consumed by prissy sanctimony that you guys think it has no other existence than political hectoring. I don't think, "Tssch, the damn fascists are conflating Sparta and Athens! Burn them! The game is shit!", it's that seeing such a stark mass of history elided into a non-contingent string of characters over city tokens makes you think about the nature of the abstraction, how it adds up into the whole Civ package, and how it interacts with the "fantasy of history" Civ generates. It's fun and natural to think about it and talk about it, not even just for some obvious constructive critical purpose like Building a Better Civ N+1.
Historical context in a lot of games like Civ is mostly incidental as a familiar setting and fitting decoration for the game play to attract more buyers.

As Alpha Centauri proves your cities could as well be named Orzu and Irzu and be part of the great nation of Glabgarezu possessing three brains and five eyes and you would very likely still be enjoying the game. Incidentally the "hordes of barbarians" could also be exchanged for the "mind worms" or anything else and while it might change some of the context it won't change that much of how the game works, how it will play or how fun it'll be. It's the same idea as having to change Soldier of Fortune to an alternate world full of robots: http://www.schnittberichte.com/schnittbericht.php?ID=3538 or exchanging all the enemies in Return to Castle Wolfenstein from "nazis" to "wolves": http://www.schnittberichte.com/schnittbericht.php?ID=4120

Nothing "evil" is happening here since all it is is a computer simulation and the problem is usually on the side of the people that through their own preconceptions and political beliefs have an incredible amount of pent up :butthurt: and can't cope with a games closeness to a particular scenario while not depicting all of the "great evils" or "details" they have learned about and are projecting onto it, which does not happen with most others playing it as intended and having fun, especially as long as the game abstracts like Civilization does and none of the "gory details" are being shown.

There is very likely no intended or factual "social context" or envisaged agenda behind these two cities being part of a nation in which it makes sense to frame this other than if you are looking too much into things and aren't able to enjoy the game for what it is because of it.
 
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Unwanted

Xu Fugui

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Gozma is right. Opposition to pretentious hipsterism isn't a reason to renounce all thoughtfulness.

Moderation in all things, I say.
Sure, it is amusing to muse over how Civilization presents history as a compact popculture cake seen tough the lens of American jingoism filtered to be fit for all audiences, how the game rules shapes the gameplay experience, historical errors like Hagia Sofia being built with minarets and things like that. But the video posted is unadulterated hipsterism, he mostly talks about things that's there due to the fact that it is a game and sees them as problematic. As Gozma already pointed out most of the things he points out are obvious to any adult and rather worthless material for a discussion, the rest is just pointless politicking. I'm not sure what is to be gained by criticising the game from the standpoint he does when things like this occur in the game:

flrJGgL.jpg


But this is serious business, let's harp on about how barbarians are dehumanized and that there aren't enough representation in the game of population x.
 
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