From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Arnust]

there is not a single area in DS2 where you are forced to fight multiple aka "hordes of enemies" at once to progress. unless you count royal rat vanguard boss fight or prowling maguss

The crowd of flamberge-wielding knights right before the Ruin Sentinels boss fight. I never ever managed to pull them one at a time.

It is a pretty hard encounter, but they're not too bad to kite. You can either go to the bottom of their segment and climb the ladder before the fog and you'll have to deal with 3 or so. Alternatively, they are a bunch of duded that need to get through very cramped door ways and corridors, specially if you just wait outside the door you came in through. They're a massacre in the waiting when you whip out weapons with big hit arcs that won't hit the walls. And there's also some explosive barrels to take out all the ones in the upper path to the fog gate. It's pretty annoying if you have all the wrong setup or break your weapons on them, but in the positive side they're pretty satisfying to dive through along Phantoms as it is one of the rarer occasions where you won't just go DPS the same guy to hell.

Right at the beginning, Forest of Giants has almost a dozen dudes besides the giant at the river stream that leads to the first bonfire.

There's two patrolling around the shore, and then before the ramp there's another two with a ranged one on the ramp, with an extra one that will rise behind you if you went for the item down the river. They also not all aggro at once but will rise without a specific order.

About bosses, Ruin Sentinels, Rat Authority, that big dog, etc. It's such a constant in he game it surprises me someone arguing the contrary.

The Ruin Sentinels are a better designed multiple fight than O&S. There, I said it. Mainly because you're only really gonna fight two at once tops while you learned most of their moveset when fighting the first one on one with generous time to take it down. The Rat Vanguard's whole point is that in the same way it is the Deacons', so I don't see the problem. Rat Authority is pretty shitty as a boss but being a crowd isn't one of them, it's just that those four little shits that die in one good swing proc rare toxic, and you can only really maybe snipe 1.5 of them from the gate.

And aggroing them from the distance or picking them with alluring skull really? That's your answer? Do you think the game throw mobs at you just to be picked apart? "LETS THROW MOBS AT THE PLAYER SO HE/SHE IS FORCED TO AGGRO FROM DISTANCE TEE HEE HEE". Bro, give up.

Dark Souls 1 taught you exactly that, though. Pretty much all of the early game consists of managing groups of varyingly powerful enemies, and *gasp*, the key to it is kiting and dividing them. You can also just use shitty consumables or arrows/bolts to distract or bait them, I haven't used an alluring skull in my life.

So you can snipe them from a distance or use alluring skulls. So what? Those are expendable resources you have to buy. Which means they can run out. Which means you have to buy more. Which means more grinding and another trip back to resupply.

Oh no, 10 souls a pop for a wooden arrow, I'd have to kill 0.1 standard hollows from the tutorial to get one!

It's all also pretty funny that y'all complain of the changes yet act like if you have the exact same tools to deal with it all as in 1. For one, unlocked play is something you actually have to do for more than rolling in a direction you may want, and for durability, there's this whacky thing called "literally all of the rest of your inventory". Without counting the ways to repair your shit on the go.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Oh yay, I spent like ten to twenty seconds sniping some bitch in Amana to death with shitty wooden arrows. Fun!
The fact they are cheap doesn't change the fact that its tedious as hell to do.

 

[Average Manatee]

Pulling mobs like we're in a shitty MMO is supposed to be a failsafe, not the intended way to get through a Dark Souls game. Because Dark Souls is not supposed to be a shitty MMO.

 

[Arnust]

Oh yay, I spent like ten to twenty seconds sniping some bitch in Amana to death with shitty wooden arrows. Fun!
The fact they are cheap doesn't change the fact that its tedious as hell to do.

But in SOTFS there actually are like what, three per segment? They have pissall for health, stunlock with sneezes and there's VERY generous cover all over the area. Being slowed by water is also not inevitable as there is a path you can stick to and run in. And their bolts are like the ones from the Hollow wizards in Tseldora except faster and fewer, so it's not like they're gonna completely surprise people. This is all considering that somehow he player can't block (or even crazier, get a good magic res shield + magic infusion), can't use blue pellets, Magic Barrier, Great Magic Barrier, or better magic defense armor, aaand the Blue stone ring.

Honestly, I've gotten killed way more by those fucking Ogres or the heavy knights just in the way that won't follow to shallow water. Or that annoying Hexer invader in the last segment.

Pulling mobs like we're in a shitty MMO is supposed to be a failsafe, not the intended way to get through a Dark Souls game. Because Dark Souls is not supposed to be a shitty MMO.

I can see people just having a general distaste of 2's changes, but this kind of comment makes me wonder if the person talking has actually fucking played any of the games. The series has gauntlets where the challenge is managing the aggro of different enemies. IE literally every single time you fight one ranged dude while a melee dude is on your ass, like say the Iron Boar, or the Balder Knights, or the literal two melee dudes and ranged dude, or the big room with a literal horde of Hollows buffed by a Channeler, the latter being able to snipe you while you fight the Berekite knight on the altar. All of these are literally just on the Undead Parish.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I still have to take my time dealing with that. That's the point. The fact that its easy to do doesn't matter; the point is I have to do it. I just don't find it fun. Its a chore. I don't play games to do chores.

The ones in tseldora are just as bad. Hell, they're actually worse because they never. Stop. Fucking. Firing. They have like no cooldown for their spells. Its just a constant stream of projectiles from one mage, and its annoying. But at least there's no water that slows you down in tseldora, its short and its not a linear path with death pits everywhere (well, except for that massive one near the crow lady, but you can see that one.)

 

[Adon]

I've been going through Dark Souls 2 for the first time and while it's taken me a while to warm up (took a while to get used to the low amount of Estus Flasks and how slow they heal you) to the slower combat, I've been digging it despite some annoyances. I'm pretty scrubbish at these games, and I don't think I've ever had to worry about groups of enemies with the exception of those guys before the Flexible Sentinels fight in Lost Bastille where I would aggro them to the downstairs area and then run past them.

And now I'm at the point where I'm ready to fight Vendrick (after getting all the Soul of a Giant) but decided to do one of the DLCs first before fighting him. Also any weapon recommendations for a melee class that I should have at this point? I stuck with a plain ol' Axe for the longest because it did decent damage with good attack speed, but eventually I switched to one of the twin blades (which is like holy shit, I fucking love using this) but ended up switching to a Greatsword +8 with the Stone Ring to be able to stunlock the enemies in the Crown of the Ivory King DLC.

 

[Average Manatee]

Best weapon in DS2 is a rapier or an estoc. It's really just not even close. Magic-infused Crystal Magic Weapon-buffed rapier w/ optimal ring setup pin-pricks enemies for around 1.2k damage on a counter hit. Estoc is around 900 due to lower counter damage but has more range and staggers if you 2-hand. This is without silly stuff like running around at <30% HP and using power within, you can be hitting these numbers throughout whole levels just playing normally (buffs last forever in DS2 and normal magic weapon buff works fine as well).

Strength weapons just kind of suck since lots of things aren't really staggered, the rest stagger from dex weapons anyway, and especially bosses don't ever really stagger. Plus their damage isn't what you'd expect, rather than slower-but-stronger you get much-slower-barely-stronger thanks to how DS2 does damage reduction.

 

[sullynathan]

(those knights are sullynathan , aweigh and ...who is the local DS2 fanboy again? hehe )

I don't get the image

 

[Average Manatee]

I can see people just having a general distaste of 2's changes, but this kind of comment makes me wonder if the person talking has actually fucking played any of the games. The series has gauntlets where the challenge is managing the aggro of different enemies. IE literally every single time you fight one ranged dude while a melee dude is on your ass, like say the Iron Boar, or the Balder Knights, or the literal two melee dudes and ranged dude, or the big room with a literal horde of Hollows buffed by a Channeler, the latter being able to snipe you while you fight the Berekite knight on the altar. All of these are literally just on the Undead Parish.

These are all reasonable challenges in keeping with the gameplay of Dark Souls. A handful of hollows coming at you through a corridor is not at all comparable to trying to pure melee through Shine of Amana or the DLCs. The problem isn't that fights with multiple enemies exist, it's that Dark Souls 2 makes laming your way through them so obviously superior that you'd be a fool not to.

 

[Achilles]

I completed all three Dark Souls games with a different build for every game. Sword and shield for 1, katana and bow for 2, mace and miracles for three. I summoned for most bosses like a motherfucker. I just don't enjoy boss battles at all, for me the best parts of Souls games are exploring an unfamiliar environment in search for loot and bonfires. I'm too old and slow to git gud, unfortunately.

 

[L'Montes]

Oh yay, I spent like ten to twenty seconds sniping some bitch in Amana to death with shitty wooden arrows. Fun!
The fact they are cheap doesn't change the fact that its tedious as hell to do.

They nerfed the tracking on the Amana projectile-hurlers awhile after launch too. I guess that says something about intent, kinda.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

Right at the beginning, Forest of Giants has almost a dozen dudes besides the giant at the river stream that leads to the first bonfire. Later inside the castle you have rooms with a bunch of dudes too. About bosses, Ruin Sentinels, Rat Authority, that big dog, etc. It's such a constant in he game it surprises me someone arguing the contrary.

And aggroing them from the distance or picking them with alluring skull really? That's your answer? Do you think the game throw mobs at you just to be picked apart? "LETS THROW MOBS AT THE PLAYER SO HE/SHE IS FORCED TO AGGRO FROM DISTANCE TEE HEE HEE". Bro, give up.

you are such a tool its not even fun to argue with you. What dozens in FoFG? You mean those pretending to be dead next to tree were in vanilla DS2 was Heide Knight? Unless you charge in like a retard you are, you dont fight more than 2-3 hollows at once which is pretty normal encounter since fucking Demons Souls.
What fucking rooms with bunch of dudes? LoL you cant even come up with a single example.

Where does it come this fucking retarded idea that Dark Souls 1 was all about one on one encounters? FFS your very first fight on your way to Undead burg is against 2+3 hollows and one faggot with bombs Graveyard is gangbang area and so is New Londo.

And yes alluring skulls are your answer for hard fights against "hordes". Fucking DS1 puts them next to mini boss(iron boar)+bunch of hollows to teach faggs like you to use all your tools instead of spamming r1 and rolling around like a retard.

 

[Average Manatee]

Alluring skulls are stupid, basically a cheat like magic. They have no place in any serious balance discussion.

Dark Souls has always been a game where you have to limit yourself from the obviously stupid things that break game balance and intended game play in half. Otherwise you can just summon and do nothing while phantoms handle every level and boss fight.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Oh yay, I spent like ten to twenty seconds sniping some bitch in Amana to death with shitty wooden arrows. Fun!
The fact they are cheap doesn't change the fact that its tedious as hell to do.

They nerfed the tracking on the Amana projectile-hurlers awhile after launch too. I guess that says something about intent, kinda.

So all those retards telling me Amana is the greatest level ever never even fought them? Figures.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Porky why are you so retarded?

Because my retardation has A scaling with your butthurt. ASCEND ME NAO!


So, since there is somewhat of a glut of good games, i did go back to Dark Souls 2, and played it a bit more.

Parrying is not as hard as I originally thought, although still pretty damn hard. The issue was that one of the two DS2 wikis has bad information. The fextralife one lists compelte wrong parry frames for different weapons and shields. On it, curved weapons look awesome for parrying, but when I tried to use them in the game, it was next to impossible. On the other wiki, they correctly show that actually curved weapons have a tiny active parry frame window of 4 frames. So essentially you have to have inhuman reflexes to use them.

I found a Pharma small shield, and parrying with it is a lot easier, as it has 12 active parry frames. Now, I can parry like 50-60% of the time against hollows, by hitting parry a little before their attack, to allow for windup time. Trying to get to the parrying buckler in the current zone, as it has 16 active frames, so should make it even easier.

Rolling or using shield is a lot easier, but there is no skill/challenge to it.

 

[Multidirectional]

Strength weapons just kind of suck since lots of things aren't really staggered, the rest stagger from dex weapons anyway, and especially bosses don't ever really stagger. Plus their damage isn't what you'd expect, rather than slower-but-stronger you get much-slower-barely-stronger thanks to how DS2 does damage reduction.

What the fuck? STR weapons are way more damaging than DEX weapons and the amount of choices between different STR weapons is huge. DEX is easily the shittier stat in DS II.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Rolling or using shield is a lot easier, but there is no skill/challenge to it.

Tell us more about how Dark Souls is too masochistic to be enjoyable.

 

[Average Manatee]

Strength weapons just kind of suck since lots of things aren't really staggered, the rest stagger from dex weapons anyway, and especially bosses don't ever really stagger. Plus their damage isn't what you'd expect, rather than slower-but-stronger you get much-slower-barely-stronger thanks to how DS2 does damage reduction.

What the fuck? STR weapons are way more damaging than DEX weapons and the amount of choices between different STR weapons is huge. DEX is easily the shittier stat in DS II.

Show me the numbers. Damage/hit, damage/second, damage/stamina bar, whatever.

 

[Multidirectional]

DEX scaling is significantly weaker than STR scaling in DSII. Numbers on weapons are irrelevant. Shit, I think even C STR scales better than A DEX. And you have loads of different STR weapons with varying dmg numbers and reach/speed, same as DEX.

 

[Average Manatee]

DEX scaling is significantly weaker than STR scaling in DSII. Numbers on weapons are irrelevant. Shit, I think even C STR scales better than A DEX.

I don't care about scaling or anything else but seeing an enemy health bar with the damage you did next to it. I do roughly 1.2k damage per hit and can get 2 or 3 hits on bosses before needing to dodge. Does your STR weapon do 2.4k per hit or 3.6k?

I guess if you want to go by the scaling type it's an INT weapon since that's the highest letter stat, but that's fairly universal across all DS2 builds since the majority of weapons are better off with a magical infusion than a non-magical one.

EDIT: Just tested a +10 magical large club w/ CMW and hit for 1200 w/ two handed strong attack on a counter attack at the cost of half my stamina on the hollow right outside Cardinal Tower bonfire. Exact same conditions w/ +10 magic rapier? 1350, and I can do 5 attacks before running out of stamina. Dunno what the best strength weapon is but it's pretty clear nothing is going to be doing the 2-3k damage it would need to in order to be on par with DEX weapons. For reference the rapier still did around 900 when not scoring a counter hit, which is actually pretty hard to accomplish.

 

[praetor]

jesus fuck. the goddamned Estoc, the weapon you said is the bestest awesomest in da game is a fucking STR weapon (B/D scaling at +10), you blithering moron. you answered your own question, but you're too stupid and too blinded by your irrational and hypocritical hate of DS2 to even acknowledge it

 

[Average Manatee]

It requires more Dexterity than Strength to use and is quick and nimble rather than slow and designed for poise. It's clearly a Dexterity-type. On top of that it's C/E/B when magically infused, so I guess it's actually an INT weapon? And the rapier is generally superior to the Estoc anyway though it's a tradeoff of counter damage vs. range (for DS2, DS3 fucks up weapon balance further so that the Estoc is superior in every capacity).

No one calls weapons strength or dexterity weapons based on scaling, otherwise every weapon in DS3 is simultaneously a strength and dexterity and quality and luck weapon because lol you can infuse them either way. A strength weapon is a big weapon with a high strength requirement that is slow but deals lots of damage/poise damage. That's the build you put strength on a character to play, not to play with a slightly longer version of a Dex weapon. Or at least that's what a strength build should be, as in DS1. In DS2 a strength weapon just generally sucks.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Rolling or using shield is a lot easier, but there is no skill/challenge to it.

Tell us more about how Dark Souls is too masochistic to be enjoyable.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? People can choose not to play a game in a way that they feel is lacking challenge or point. I mean when I use rolling/blocking, I almost never die, but there is no fun. If i parry 3 straight dudes, it feels like I am mastering the system, getting better, and defeating them in a skillful way. If I just hold up Q or roll, and wait for opening, that feels like I am abusing the AI.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I found the parrying buckler and also bought the regular rapier off the blacksmith in Majula. The rapier can btw parry in main hand, with pretty decent parrying stats (14 active parrying frames), but the buckler is a little better (16 active parry frames, and a slightly shorter windup).

Been running through the forest of fallen giants over and over, practicing parries on the hollows by the bonfire. It's definitely way easier with the buckler, but still kinda iffy. Any given time, you can guess a little wrong, and get disemboweled.

Also, enemies with slow windup speeds are the worst for this kinda of anticipation parrying.

 

[Average Manatee]

parry

skillful

Parries with the proper shield have more iframes than rolls AND you only need to "hit" a single frame to succeed in a parry while a roll needs the entire enemy's attack to whiff through your iframes. Then you don't have to spend stamina to dodge further hits in a combo and instead immediately go into an entirely invincible animation that ends in massive damage.

Parrying is quite literally broken against anything vulnerable to it, the only reason PvP is able to function in Dark Souls is due to lag making parries heavily based on luck and prediction. There's a reason the guide for every parryable boss across the entire series says "lol just parry him you moron it's easymode".